Sports in Canadian culture - Page 93

Berklon · #**1841** Posted **Jul 31, 2014, 2:11 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

Is the Bills' current stadium in Orchard Park that bad?

It's big, but pretty bare bones... and the location isn't the greatest.

The talk is they might want to build a new one in Niagara Falls (US side obviously) to attract more people from Southern Ontario... proving, yet again, that they're relying on Canadians to prop them up... and we do it like the idiots we are.

Acajack · #**1842** Posted **Jul 31, 2014, 2:26 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire

Considering it is now over 40 years old, it's ancient by NFL standards. It must be missing all kinds of revenue-generating - oops, I mean experience-enhancing features that the other teams all have.

Berklon is dead right, though. I would think that the Buffalo teams would be a lot less viable without the reliable fan support from Ontario. Wouldn't it be ironic if the Ontario fan support for the Bills made the difference in keeping the team from moving to Toronto?

I've heard that for both the Bills and Sabres ticket sales to Canadians are 15-20% of total sales.

One thing though is while I don't generally disagree with the point being made, Canadians in Niagara are closer to Buffalo than they are to Toronto.

But not to Hamilton, which I suppose hurts that city's chances of getting into the NHL. And the Ticats to some degree as well.

Acajack · #**1843** Posted **Jul 31, 2014, 2:28 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berklon

It's big, but pretty bare bones... and the location isn't the greatest.

The talk is they might want to build a new one in Niagara Falls (US side obviously) to attract more people from Southern Ontario... proving, yet again, that they're relying on Canadians to prop them up... and we do it like the idiots we are.

What would rather see people do, then?

Support the Bills in Toronto series or support the Ticats and Argos?

Acajack · #**1844** Posted **Jul 31, 2014, 2:29 PM**

Still with this...

I suppose that very few of the Bills in Toronto series ticket buyers were from Niagara. These people already have their habits in Orchard Park. Why would they drive further to Toronto and pay more for parking, tickets and concessions?

esquire · #**1845** Posted **Jul 31, 2014, 2:35 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

What would rather see people do, then?

Support the Bills in Toronto series or support the Ticats and Argos?

The Bills in Toronto series is 100% counter to the interests of Toronto football fans whether they are CFL or NFL supporters. It is to the credit of fans there that they stayed away from the late Ted Rogers' cynical little scheme.

thebasketballgeek · #**1846** Posted **Jul 31, 2014, 2:37 PM**

The Buffalo Bills are getting their way back to maybe the early 1990s. All they need is to develop E.J Manuel and their a super bowl team. People from southern Ontario like Niagra Falls usually go to Buffalo games because its the NFL. They get to watch Tom Brady and the Patriots play, Cameron Wake the former cfl star and a star on the dolphins. Also the Jets.

What i'm saying is that in the cfl we have only develop three good nfl players which are Doug Flutie, Warren Moon, and Cameron Wake, also that the Nfl has much better talent. Guess what they still went to the nfl. I mean you're not going to get Richard Sherman to play here by choice.

Southern Ontario people aren't idiots they are just watching a league with more talent.

Berklon · #**1847** Posted **Jul 31, 2014, 2:37 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

What would rather see people do, then?

Support the Bills in Toronto series or support the Ticats and Argos?

Really, I just want people to support what they like. Regardless of what it is.

I just hate hearing from people who want an NFL team and/or another NHL team in Southern Ontario, yet they support the Bills and/or Sabres - which makes it harder to get teams. If you want your own team, then stop propping up a team that's getting in our way.

thebasketballgeek · #**1848** Posted **Jul 31, 2014, 2:42 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berklon

Really, I just want people to support what they like. Regardless of what it is.

I just hate hearing from people who want an NFL team and/or another NHL team in Southern Ontario, yet they support the Bills and/or Sabres - which makes it harder to get teams. If you want your own team, then stop propping up a team that's getting in our way.

The people in Southern Ontario would not drive all the way to Toronto to watch an NHL game and don't want to go to Hamilton to watch a CFL game. when you're talking about Southern Ontario are you talking about south of Hamilton like London, Windsor, Niagara Falls etc. or the whole region.

esquire · #**1849** Posted **Jul 31, 2014, 2:55 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berklon

Really, I just want people to support what they like. Regardless of what it is.

I just hate hearing from people who want an NFL team and/or another NHL team in Southern Ontario, yet they support the Bills and/or Sabres - which makes it harder to get teams. If you want your own team, then stop propping up a team that's getting in our way.

Just before the Jets came back to Winnipeg, there was a bit of a backlash starting to develop against the annual pre-season games that would be played at MTS Centre. It was just starting to get noticeable, but had the NHL not returned for another few years it would have definitely become more vocal.

The reasoning was that the teams playing pre-season games in Winnipeg were basically sunbelt teams who were getting real money for games that nobody in Phoenix or Tampa or whatever would buy a ticket for. In essence, we were becoming aware of the fact that we were pumping money into teams that should have, by rights, been thinking about moving to Winnipeg.

In essence, the Bills Toronto series has helped pump Toronto money into subsidizing the team and in so doing, it has helped to keep them in Buffalo.

Berklon · #**1850** Posted **Jul 31, 2014, 3:02 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

The people in Southern Ontario would not drive all the way to Toronto to watch an NHL game and don't want to go to Hamilton to watch a CFL game. when you're talking about Southern Ontario are you talking about south of Hamilton like London, Windsor, Niagara Falls etc. or the whole region.

I'm talking about Southern Ontario in the larger sense... not just south of Hamilton. My complaints are directed mostly at those (and there are lots) who are scattered from Hamilton to Toronto (and the cities in-between) who drive down to Buffalo all the time to watch Bills/Sabres games.

MrOilers · #**1851** Posted **Jul 31, 2014, 3:37 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

What i'm saying is that in the cfl we have only develop three good nfl players which are Doug Flutie, Warren Moon, and Cameron Wake

This comment proves you know nothing about how many ex-CFL players have starting positions in the NFL. Hell, Seattle won the Superbowl last year with 2 of them. (I am not even going to mention how many star NFL players become complete busts in the CFL).

Quote:

Southern Ontario people aren't idiots they are just watching a league with more talent.

Yeah right. The Argos still drew fewer fans when they had Flutie than they did watching those terrible Bills teams. "Talent" has very little to do with any of this.

Acajack · #**1852** Posted **Jul 31, 2014, 3:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire

^ It would have been different 20 years ago, but I would daresay that the NFL coming to Toronto would have little bearing on the Argos at this point. That's partly because the Argos have reached such depths that even the arrival of the NFL probably wouldn't make things worse. Frankly, if anything the renewed attention to football might even help lift the Argos' fortunes a little bit.

The reality is that a NFL team would require a serious financial commitment by Toronto ticketbuyers and sponsors. The Argos, by contrast, would thrive with 20,000 season ticketholders and a relatively modest contingent of sponsors. In other words, the Argos need so little relative to a NFL team that I don't think it can be said that a NFL team would stand in the way of them getting that.

But man, you would think that if Toronto was really serious that someone could step up and seal the deal. I mean, how many Toronto people would have thought that the Jets would come back to Winnipeg before their town would get a NFL team? This NFL-to-Toronto chatter has been going on for over 20 years now and doesn't seem any closer to reaching a conclusion than it did in the early 90s.

Well, for a so-called sports business expert, I thought Mr. Bloom's analysis was quite superficial.

Just at look at the Blue Jays' marketing impact across Canada. There's nothing "organic" about the Blue Jays being on the radar in Vancouver. It's marketing and media that do that.

Put an NFL team in Toronto and many national sponsors will gravitate to them, and in your 7-Eleven in the Okanagan you can be guaranteed that at the counter you'll be more like to see NFL Toronto Worldclassies merchandise and pocket schedules than you will stuff for the BC Lions and the CFL.

Just look at how we are inundated with NFL stuff already from coast to coast and corporate Canada doesn't even have a Canadian NFL property to latch onto and get a hard-on over...

Berklon · #**1853** Posted **Jul 31, 2014, 3:42 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrOilers

(I am not even going to mention how many star NFL players become complete busts in the CFL).

I'm curious who the star NFL players were that were busts in the CFL. I haven't followed the CFL in a while, so I don't know.

Acajack · #**1854** Posted **Jul 31, 2014, 3:49 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berklon

I'm curious who the star NFL players were that were busts in the CFL. I haven't followed the CFL in a while, so I don't know.

Don't have time to look them up but there have been a lot of them. He's not pulling your leg.

I mean, the field size and rules are different. Most players can adapt well but some cannot.

Obviously this situation would not occur if the CFL and NFL had the exact same rules.

Acajack · #**1855** Posted **Jul 31, 2014, 3:52 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrOilers

In my opinion, the most pro-Canadian thing a sports fan can do is support the CFL. The league has an excellent on-field product and a long, fantastic, and interesting history. And football fans are some of the worst - you don't have to spite the CFL just because you watch NFL games.

I wanted to respond to this but forget.

The bashing is the annoying part.

I don't watch and have no particular interest in the NBA and basketball, but I don't bash on it constantly for that reason.

MrOilers · #**1856** Posted **Jul 31, 2014, 4:06 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berklon

I'm curious who the star NFL players were that were busts in the CFL.

Off the top of my head:

Vince Ferragamo
Mark Gastineau
Dexter Manley
Ricky Williams
Andre Rison

I think the only measurable difference between CFL and NFL players are the size of the players, not their skills or speed. Smaller guys have more of a struggle on the smaller NFL field, and larger guys struggle more on the larger CFL field. There are players in the CFL today who can catch the ball and run circles around NFL players, but just lack the size.

Plus, the NFL is in the business of marketing and making money. There are a lot of politics involved in US football. There are a lot of teams who would rather sign a big name "celebrity" player to a huge contract, and take the bigger TV ratings, and more jersey and merchandise sales by playing him a lot, than sign some no-name from Canada who would actually do a better job on the field.

I watch both CFL and NFL. I just think football is a great sport, and it's an absolute sin that the CFL doesn't get more respect.

osmo · #**1857** Posted **Jul 31, 2014, 4:07 PM**

NFL would have zero impact on the Argos. The Argos took a blow when the Blue Jays came and many say they never recovered from it but the NFL and CFL are two different products. It's Leas and Marlies, families will go to an Argos game and get good value while the Bay Street and suits will go to the NFL games. You would get some marginal tourist traffic also. Canadians whom are fans of X team would travel here to see the Toronto NFL team play them. When the Falcons where here a bunch of Canadian Falcon fans made the trip for that game here.

NFL is strange though. I still don't understand the obsession with London as the WFL/NFL Europe flamed out there. They could have a division in Germany and it would actually perform well since Germans and the Dutch were the only ones whom actually embraced the American product with support and money. If I was the NFL I would just take the Super Bowl international first. Play a game at Wembley one year and squeeze cooperate money out of the Brits, go to Amsterdam, next Berlin, and cycle these European cities in 4 cycles with American cities each other year. The NBA flirted with having all-star weekend in Paris, which makes sense. I never understood why they don't export they showcase events instead of silly ideas to have franchises which are a overnight flight away.

Cart before the horse with the NFL. Ignoring the grassroots money they poured into grass roots football in Germany which has still to this day a well run domestic league. The London domestic league looks like a glorified senior beer league versus the professional German one. Roger Goddell to me seams clueless in chasing this London fetish.

Acajack · #**1858** Posted **Jul 31, 2014, 4:14 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by osmo

If I was the NFL I would just take the Super Bowl international first. Play a game at Wembley one year and squeeze cooperate money out of the Brits, go to Amsterdam, next Berlin, and cycle these European cities in 4 cycles with American cities each other year. The NBA flirted with having all-star weekend in Paris, which makes sense. I never understood why they don't export they showcase events instead of silly ideas to have franchises which are a overnight flight away.

.

This is actually a really good idea. At first I thought that the NFL would get crapped from the owners and mayors who will be deprived of hosting the Super Bowl in their cities but in reality less than half a dozen American or NFL cities really get to host the Super Bowl with any regularity. It's always a back and forth between Miami, New Orleans, and a few others.

Most NFL cities never have and never will host a Super Bowl.

esquire · #**1859** Posted **Jul 31, 2014, 4:25 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

Most NFL cities never have and never will host a Super Bowl.

Super Bowls will continue to be used as inducements to get cities to build new stadiums. For instance, Minneapolis-St. Paul and SF will each host one in their new venues, and Atlanta likely will too when the time comes.

But yeah, for the most part it will keep doing the warm weather Miami-New Orleans-Tampa circuit.

Steveston · #**1860** Posted **Jul 31, 2014, 5:10 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire

Super Bowls will continue to be used as inducements to get cities to build new stadiums. For instance, Minneapolis-St. Paul and SF will each host one in their new venues, and Atlanta likely will too when the time comes.

But yeah, for the most part it will keep doing the warm weather Miami-New Orleans-Tampa circuit.

Warm weather, or northern cities with covered/retractable roof stadiums (Detroit, Indy). The last one in NJ was a one-off (thanks from Roger for building a $1.6billion stadium!).