Halifax Stadium Discussion

[halifaxboyns]

KeithP> I've been to the stadiums here in Calgary and in Edmonton and even with room for about 1,500 cars (I'm eyeballing it; so it could be more or less) there was plenty of room for people to setup bbq's and party before the game.

What I'm suggesting is that if a 25,000 seat stadium is built and the typical parking amount would be 5,000 cars (I don't know if that's right, I'm guessing) then why not build 2,000 stalls and then really bulk up the transit routes to the site? In the case of my spot of choice (Shannon park), if you add into it a ferry, that could really reduce the need for people to take cars from the peninsula. But I admit; some people just will drive because that's what they want.

But I'd also like to suggest looking at the parking issue from another perspective. We saw what 150$ oil did to prices in halifax - $1.40/l for gas. Would people be so inclined to drive when gas was that much or more if public transit were setup in a manner that got you to the game as well? It's something to think about because I admit people will still drive regardless of cost, but I think many more would use transit if the option worked.

I think Fenwick is right - the challenge of our geography will make the selection difficult, without impacting some area of the city. As to the forum site; the idea had been floated of parkades being built on both sides to expand parking. If sufficient land was available on the CFB site, you could also add parking there - was just a thought. You don't need to bash people's ideas.

[brettinhalifax]

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[hfx_chris]

On the last page somebody mentioned Penhorn Mall, although I think just in passing.

I know it's slated for redevelopment, but they're just finishing knocking down the rest of the mall now (up to the back part of Sears), and that whole area in behind where the mall was is pretty big. If that wasn't already spoken for, that might be a decent idea too. Right on the 111, Portland St, good transit access.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

According to HRM "for auditoriums, theaters, stadiums and similar buildings, one parking space shall be provided for each eight seats." So that would mean that 3,125 spaces would be needed for a 25,000 seat stadium.

Tthat is a little lower than I expected. So I found a comparison of requirements across the country done by the City of Toronto (go to page 14) and the range is from 10 seats per space (Kingston) to 3 seats per space (Calgary). Hamilton comes in a 6 seats per space, so Halifax's 8 seats per space might be on the lower end, but not the lowest in the country.

Anyway, according to HRM's own bylaws, 3,125 parking spaces would be required for a 25,000 seat stadium. At least2,500 parking spaces would be required everywhere else in Canada.

I found this spreadsheet for calculating parking costs and for 3,125 spaces:

Suburban surface parking - 29 acres required - $15 million

Suburban 2 level parking - 14 acres required - $50 million

Urban 3 level parking - 9 acres required - $65 million

So, a $60 million stadium in an urban setting will require a $65 million parking garage. $125 million total investment.

Based on these numbers the Woodside location would look good. I have to admit that Woodside would have as good of bus transit as Shannon Park and it already has a direct ferry to downtown Halifax. Maybe I was wrong to criticize the Woodside location. It would certainly have a good view of Halifax. I wonder if one ferry could be shifted from the downtown Dartmouth route for events so that there would be two ferries crossing to Woodside. What would be the capacity if each ferry could cross 4 times per hour? I don't know the ferry capacities (300 seems to pop into my head but I am not sure - that would mean 2400 per hour for two ferries, which is not too bad - if there were a way to increase that number then it would be even more attractive)

I am not trying to argue, but the Metro Centre was built without dedicated parking so couldn't an exception be made in Halifax? The link was for Dartmouth. Do you have it for Halifax also?

Personally, I prefer Woodside over Shannon Park since the transit connection are as good or better and the view of Halifax would be much better. It also has good highway access. If the transit connections were sufficient then it might even be better than the DND site.

[Keith P.]

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but all this discussion shows that many of you just don't get it. Dartmouth is out because the harbour is a barrier to the majority of customers. Shannon is not a good site and has huge complexities in obtaining the land and making it ready. Woodside is even worse. Everything beyond Kearney Lake Rd is too far away from the bulk of the populace. Windsor Park has similar complexities as Shannon and may be too tight. It's got to be Exhibition Park.

Lets get a satellite pic and plunk down a stadium to see how it works.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but all this discussion shows that many of you just don't get it. Dartmouth is out because the harbour is a barrier to the majority of customers. Shannon is not a good site and has huge complexities in obtaining the land and making it ready. Woodside is even worse. Everything beyond Kearney Lake Rd is too far away from the bulk of the populace. Windsor Park has similar complexities as Shannon and may be too tight. It's got to be Exhibition Park.

Lets get a satellite pic and plunk down a stadium to see how it works.

I appreciate your diplomacy, but aren't people going to be surrounded by swarms of mosquitoes and maybe worse way out there in Exhibition Park? (there is no sarcasm intended - this was the first thing that popped into my head). Maybe I have an old map link, but it just looks like there isn't much out there - http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=44.6176...1336&lvl=14&sty=h&where1=Halifax%2C%20NS.

PS: There are closer locations such as near Bayers Lake Shopping Mall that might not be too expensive.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Lets get a satellite pic and plunk down a stadium to see how it works.

Just tell me which one and I will plunk one down (seriously) - anything from the Rogers Centre to Cardiff City Stadium. I could get a 3D model off the 3D Warehouse. I can do it fairly quickly if you tell me what type of stadium (with a disclaimer that it isn't my idea of an ideal location).

Can you tell me if there has been any talk of focusing growth in the HRM to the west of Halifax? Then it would make more sense.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I appreciate your diplomacy, but aren't people going to be surrounded by swarms of mosquitoes and maybe worse way out there in Exhibition Park? (there is no sarcasm intended - this was the first thing that popped into my head).

I agree completely Fenwick. I never understood why they built Exhibition Park where they did. Things that pop into my mind in trying to describe this location include adjectives such as "lonely, remote, desolate, isolated and barren".

The Exhibition Park site might be cheap but I don't think that's what you want when you're thinking of a regional stadium.

[-Harlington-]

i made a post earlier in this thread about fitting a 35000 seat stadium in bayers lake near the 102 and 103 interchange, and it fits, ill see if i can find it on my computer and post it again
thats if anyones intrested in that location, im not as good as fenwick at that ploping stadiums in places stuff

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I agree completely Fenwick. I never understood why they built Exhibition Park where they did. Things that pop into my mind in trying to describe this location include adjectives such as "lonely, remote, desolate, isolated and barren".

The Exhibition Park site might be cheap but I don't think that's what you want when you're thinking of a regional stadium.

It is the perfect site for a regional stadium, being located at the intersection of the 102 and 103 highways, far closer to the peninsula and the bulk of the population than the other major highway intersection, that of the 101 and 102. It is at the edge of the biggest retail/business park in the region. Yet it is close to the peninsula and has no natural barriers such as a harbour to act as a psychological barrier to the majority of the population. AND WE ALREADY OWN IT. It could start to be built next month.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Just tell me which one and I will plunk one down (seriously) - anything from the Rogers Centre to Cardiff City Stadium. I could get a 3D model off the 3D Warehouse. I can do it fairly quickly if you tell me what type of stadium (with a disclaimer that it isn't my idea of an ideal location).

Cardiff would do nicely.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but all this discussion shows that many of you just don't get it. Dartmouth is out because the harbour is a barrier to the majority of customers. Shannon is not a good site and has huge complexities in obtaining the land and making it ready. Woodside is even worse. Everything beyond Kearney Lake Rd is too far away from the bulk of the populace. Windsor Park has similar complexities as Shannon and may be too tight. It's got to be Exhibition Park.

Lets get a satellite pic and plunk down a stadium to see how it works.

Here is the Cardiff City Stadium drawn by dizzyHARSH which I downloaded from the Google 3D Warehouse and pasted at the Exhibition Park outside Halifax. Maybe in 10 years this will be surrounded by new development projects. (This is Keith P.'s ideal location - so please direct any praise and/or criticism in his direction). I can't say this won't be a good location in 10 years time (especially if the North West Arm Drive is ever connected to a North West Arm Crossing (then it would be a much better location).

Keith P. - Could you tell us what bus transit connections are going to this site? (you mentioned that there is a bus transit terminal across the street - is this correct, or am I at the wrong location). What about the Halifax Mainland Commons - does the city own land in that area?

Just a note - as with many stadiums, the playing field seems to be sunken (I estimate that it is sunken by about 15 feet.) (This is based on having to raise it up in order for the playing field to display properly). Maybe Welkin can confirm this since he has been to this stadium.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by -Harlington-

i made a post earlier in this thread about fitting a 35000 seat stadium in bayers lake near the 102 and 103 interchange, and it fits, ill see if i can find it on my computer and post it again
thats if anyones intrested in that location, im not as good as fenwick at that ploping stadiums in places stuff

Harlington your post was #433.

I did a very rough stadium at Exibition Park in post #434 http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=4590817&postcount=434

Upon reflection I think traffic would be a nightmare to get to this site. St. Margaret's Bay Rd. from Armdale to the Prospect Rd. is nothing more than a donkey path and the intersection of St. Margaret's Bay Rd. and Prospect Rd. is one of the worst in the city.

Bad intersection that would require $$$$ (St. Margaret's Bay Rd. and Prospect Rd.)http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_...id=VEE1G-EI8s3mkV4AVykCyA&cbp=12,45,,0,5

The Shearwater Air Show has proven that this site can handle large crowds and has been doing so since 1948. Based on that traffic mobility I think Shannon Pk. would not cause traffic tie-ups. Exibition Pk. has the odd home show, Christmas show and Saltscape expo. These events snarl traffic.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Empire

Upon reflection I think traffic would be a nightmare to get to this site. St. Margaret's Bay Rd. from Armdale to the Prospect Rd. is nothing more than a donkey path and the intersection of St. Margaret's Bay Rd. and Prospect Rd. is one of the worst in the city.

Bad intersection that would require $$$$ (St. Margaret's Bay Rd. and Prospect Rd.)http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_...id=VEE1G-EI8s3mkV4AVykCyA&cbp=12,45,,0,5

That intersection is easily upgraded.

The Shearwater Air Show has proven that this site can handle large crowds and has been doing so since 1948. Based on that traffic mobility I think Shannon Pk. would not cause traffic tie-ups. Exibition Pk. has the odd home show, Christmas show and Saltscape expo. These events snarl traffic.

I was unaware that we owned Shearwater or Shannon Park.

Nevertheless it is interesting that the roads there can handle traffic loads you mentioned, yet the quite identical roads plus 2 of the biggest multilane highways we have in NS seemingly cannot for the EP site. How bizarre.

[beyeas]

So just trying to think outside the box...

Maybe we have already ruled this out, but is there any room along the Bedford waterfront to put this? Land availability aside, my original reason for ruling this out was my hatred for the Bedford so-called Highway (having lived in Bedford for a while in the past).

However, here are some interesting points:
1. We have had a lot of arguments on here about how if it goes in Hali then it is hard for people from Dartmouth to get over the bridges and vice versa, whereas this places it in the middle.
2. A Bedford waterfront stadium would be along the rail lines, providing an additional transportation mode, and could also be integrated with a Bedford ferry service, again adding transmit capacity for those not driving.
3. Given that they already want to put a transit hub of some sort along the Bedford waterfront, one assumes that they would want to have a park-and-ride for people who would in the future be taking a ferry or rail, so maybe a parking garage cost could be offset into the transit terminal?
4. If it could be on the waterfront it would have that nice natural advantage in terms of the views, but being on the basin the fog is much less of an issue than it is in woodside etc.

Anyway, feel free to shoot it down (I am not being sarcastic). Just trying to think outside the box given that we seem to have absolutely NO agreement on the "traditional" more obvious sites.

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but all this discussion shows that many of you just don't get it. Dartmouth is out because the harbour is a barrier to the majority of customers. Shannon is not a good site and has huge complexities in obtaining the land and making it ready. Woodside is even worse. Everything beyond Kearney Lake Rd is too far away from the bulk of the populace. Windsor Park has similar complexities as Shannon and may be too tight. It's got to be Exhibition Park.

Lets get a satellite pic and plunk down a stadium to see how it works.

Keith,
Exhibition Park I think is difficult....one way and one way out.....the land is surely there and underutilized for sure..... and its really crazy getting there..... especially when you consider most will have to enter from the 102 or 103
The future 113 will cut across from the 103 outside of Timberlea to the 102 very close to Kearney Lake....and likely hook up to the 102 close to Uteck Blvd....I think the quarry site along the 102 has great potential....its between the Kearney Lake Rd and Bayers Lake....running parallel to the 102. It could have exits to both ends and the 102 directly....or maybe cross the 102 to connect to the Main land Commons area.....
Shannon Park I think should be somewhere close to the top of any list....I simply think that the land is there owned by Canada Lands, great vista view, and the road access can be good for shuttles etc etc...and that bridge has the most lanes for cross harbour traffic....

[ATL Stadium]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Here is the Cardiff City Stadium drawn by dizzyHARSH which I downloaded from the Google 3D Warehouse and pasted at the Exhibition Park outside Halifax. Maybe in 10 years this will be surrounded by new development projects. (This is Keith P.'s ideal location - so please direct any praise and/or criticism in his direction). I can't say this won't be a good location in 10 years time (especially if the North West Arm Drive is ever connected to a North West Arm Crossing (then it would be a much better location).

Keith P. - Could you tell us what bus transit connections are going to this site? (you mentioned that there is a bus transit terminal across the street - is this correct, or am I at the wrong location). What about the Halifax Mainland Commons - does the city own land in that area?

Just a note - as with many stadiums, the playing field seems to be sunken (I estimate that it is sunken by about 15 feet.) (This is based on having to raise it up in order for the playing field to display properly). Maybe Welkin can confirm this since he has been to this stadium.

Fenwick
You have skills......here are two for you.....

1) Plop that stadium at the quarry site and see how it fits.....between the Bayers Lake exit and the Kearney Lake Exit...off the 102....

2) Try to close to the RIM site along the 102 between the Hammonds Plains Rd and the new Uteck Blvd ramps....

Here is one big plus for the Shannon locale......services.....city water and sewer.....extending those type of services to Exhibition Park or Shearwater may be extremely costly.....

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by ATL Stadium

Fenwick
You have skills......here are two for you.....

1) Plop that stadium at the quarry site and see how it fits.....between the Bayers Lake exit and the Kearney Lake Exit...off the 102....

2) Try to close to the RIM site along the 102 between the Hammonds Plains Rd and the new Uteck Blvd ramps....

Here is one big plus for the Shannon locale......services.....city water and sewer.....extending those type of services to Exhibition Park or Shearwater may be extremely costly.....

Sure, shouldn't be a problem (same stadium as above?). I just signed in for a moment. I will have to wait until I am back home from work this evening. Is there any land available close to The West Mall?

Is the Quarry site that you mentioned within close walking distance of the Bayers Lake Shopping area? A stadium next to an office complex is ideal since the parking lot for an office complex should be unused during game time (that is not the case for shopping areas) - are there offices in the Bayers Lake area? If there is existing parking then it will save construction cost so that more money can be spent on the actual stadium.

[brettinhalifax]

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[brettinhalifax]

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