Canadian Airport Thread II

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by msmariner

End of the day the Union may get their 30% pay raise. Losers in all this are the tens of thousands of travellers whose vacations are getting ruined. You don’t think ONEX (Westjet) after being embarrassed by all this and their reputation maybe damaged long term isn’t going to do everything in their power to find alternatives to outsource all 750 of those jobs? Be careful where greed leads you

ONEX would do that anyway.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

And if there were a strike, they'd be harping about the PM not doing anything to save Cdns from the horror.

Chrétien survived whatever outage there was at the time of the AC strike.

[zahav]

It's crazy how Porter has expanded in the last year or so, especially considering it's conservative operations from it's inception in 2006 until now. Nothing like a Jetsgo, Flair, or Lynx, just throwing darts at odd city pairings to see what would stick, and using the completely wrong aircraft for some of its routes. Porter may have always had larger ambitions, but stayed with just the turboprops and a limited route network for a long time (I know they had a lot of drama over YTZ, the runway, etc., but they still could have leased jet aircraft if they really wanted, and could have launch a poorly planned jet expansion across the country, but they were restrained and didn't want to take a risky chance). But they didn't, and waited. But then once they started, omg it's been a torrent of expansion to so many markets, and so quickly. Maybe I am wearing rose coloured glasses, but I feel like their being in operation for many years before expanding was smart, it built up the expertise. It's just shocking to see an airline that did so little for so long all of a sudden become a real competitor on some routes (their presence on transcontinental routes to YVR and YYC is still very minor compared to AC and WS, but on some of these leisure routes, they will be at similar capacity to WS and F9, and not THAT behind AC. AC is still way out ahead in seats/frequency to places like ORL, FLL, TPA etc., but it's nowhere near the imbalance of say YYZ-YYC. On that route, Porter operates 3x daily E90s, way below both WS and AC offerings (~8 daily each, and with larger aircraft). But their overall growth rate is really impressive at the moment, quite a bold move. Hopefully they are doing it smartly and there's some solid performance for all of this extra capacity.

As an aside... I always knew Florida was important for Southern Ontario and Quebec travel wise. And I'm not sure if what I'm seeing is typical, but looking at the # of flights between YYZ and YUL and various Florida destinations is ridiculous, it's huge! And there's soooo many more destinations there than I ever thought. Tons of carriers, tons of frequency, and in AC's case, heavy aircraft deployed quite often. Although I someone will have to inform me on why FLL gets mainline A330s multiple times a day, and Miami gets narrow body Rouge?! Again, I'm ignorant on Florida and the market dynamics, but as a Vancouverite, I see Miami as this big major metropolis, with an impressive international airport and a massive global reach. So for AC use the lowest calibre of their offerings (Rouge) and with lower seats to MIA than to FLL seemed confusing to me. FLL is obviously the bigger draw for one or more reasons, the math is obviously correct and shows the higher demand is to FLL by a wide margin, just surprising for an outsider to see.
Orlando I can see (it is globally renowned as a tourist destination, even way out here in the Wild West we know about Orlando lol, and then of course Miami, but Fort Lauderdale isn't even on the radar. And from the looks of FLL's Wiki page, although it has some impressive international carriers and connections, it is just an operating base for Allegiant Air and Spirit Airlines, not surprising. So to see AC operate some go its largest mainline aircraft operate the route is funny to see. I know AC needs to do something with its A330s especially in winter, I never would have thought FLL would be the place to put them, especially over Miami. But as I said, I know nothing about the market and demographics, and have no personal knowledge at all, this was just my uneducated, uninformed first impression, and surprise that FLL is better served than MIA itself.

But ya, overall crazy capacity there, and more seems to get added all the time. Funny compared to Californian destinations in general. Such a different beast than California. LAX barely has any competition from the other airports of the region like Burbank, Orange County, etc. when it comes to out of country service. I know there's a ton of geographic differences between Florida and California, namely proximity to more major markets overseas. But for a region the size of LAX to really only have one airport that goes anywhere outside the country is surprising. Then look at the Bay Area, Oakland is barely served, definitely not international (other than some Mexico, because it's California and the demographics support that). Just so different from the heavy concentration of connected airports in close proximity in Florida.

[Djeffery]

I think part of it is the cruise traffic. Even cruising from Miami, people seem to like FLL more than MIA. People cruising from Port Everglades fly into MIA because their local airport only has service to MIA (or the airline they have status with goes there). People cruising from Miami fly into FLL because they choose to. FLL just seems to have a reputation of being less of a clusterfuck of an airport and of being nicer. I've never flown into MIA, always FLL, so I don't know for sure myself, but just my reading of forums like Cruise Critic and Flyertalk.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by zahav

So for AC use the lowest calibre of their offerings (Rouge) and with lower seats to MIA than to FLL seemed confusing to me. FLL is obviously the bigger draw for one or more reasons, the math is obviously correct and shows the higher demand is to FLL by a wide margin, just surprising for an outsider to see.

The demand to FLL is higher than to MIA. It's as simple as that.

A lot of Canadian snowbirds hibernate in Boca Raton, Pompano, Fort Lauderdale and Hollywood areas, which are best served via FLL. MIA is out of the way for that crowd.

Both FLL and MIA have significant cruise traffic, but when you factor in the demographic described above, it's no contest. That's why AC uses multiple widebodies to FLL from both YYZ and YUL in winter, whereas MIA is one or two daily narrowbody at most.

It's a similar - albeit even more pronounced - story between FLL and PBI up the road. FLL is in the sweet spot for Canadian snowbirds. MIA/PBI aren't.

AC also only has 2 gates at FLL. So in order to increase capacity, they need to use widebodies.

[zahav]

Thanks for the background, I of course knew there must be a valid reason as AC is very experienced in the Florida market, so knows where best to allocate capacity to meet demand. I was more expressing my surprise, as a Westcoaster with almost no knowledge of Florida or it's travel demographics. It just stood out to me that AC clearly assigns more capacity and importance to FLL than Miami, even though Miami is the bigger city, the international hub, etc. Without knowing the background, on the surface it would be like YYZ and YUL flying to SNA with more capacity than LAX, it's unthinkable. But the explanations you gave make sense, and now FLL is way more on my radar that before, when I never even thought about it.

Looks like AC has made some transborder changes for the winter season. From YVR, 3/4 of the flights to SFO will be on Jazz CRAs, and 1/4 is a 737. I don't remember what AC had last season, or if there even is a historic norm, but I think this is more Jazz than usual. Of course they have a JV with United, who are 3x daily mainline, so probably roughly equal capacity as usual. But with LAX, 1/4 flights will be Jazz CRA, and 3/4 on mainline (737 and 321 it looks like). And again, UA operates too, 1x daily mainline (I think they used to go Express in winter, so seems like UA is focusing on mainline, and AC is utilizing Jazz more). SMF still daily CRA, and SAN 2x daily CRA, I believe same as usual. But then AC is also operating 1x daily CRA to Las Vegas, I don't think that's ever happened?? They will also have 1x daily mainline 321 now, rather than 737. And then 2x daily CRA to DEN, 1x daily mainline to SNA, PSP, PHX, IAH, ORD, and EWR, and 6x weekly to MIA. So overall very similar to last year I believe, just the emergence of Jazz CRAs on routes like LAX and LAS where they weren't before. I supposed to free up 737s for all the sun flying increases they announced last week?

I am not familiar with last winter at YUL, but looks like LAX is just 1x daily 787, and then LAS is 1x daily A330. I think Vegas has always been Rouge? And not sure LAX frequency or equipment in normal winters, but these two will be 1x daily but widebody. SFO, DEN and IAH are each 1x daily mainline, and then MSP, ORD, DFW, EWR, LGA, BOS, IAD, DCA, ATL are all AC Express, various frequencies for each and I think mostly CRA and E175. Plus then all of the Florida stuff. Not sure how this compares to 2022, I can't even remember YVR last year let alone YUL lol. The AC sections in the YUL wikipedia seem to need several updates just on ones I can see. It's showing BOS, DFW, and ORD as year round mainline, but those all look to be Express only in winter. MIA shows as year round mainline, but it's Rouge. DTW and PHL are seasonal only, but showing as year round currently in the article. Then with Rouge, MSY is showing as Rouge seasonal, but it should be just Express seasonal. And FLL is seasonal Rouge, currently showing year round.

I get nervous updating these lists myself in Wiki, I am not great with the code and syntax with tables, and have accidentally screwed up the entire table on Wiki, and then others had to come and fix it. I don't want to take any chances, especially on someone else's airport lol

[nname]

^ You can check what I posted in the YVR thread. About half of the YVR transborder and Mexico routes have capacity cut. Most of the routes you listed (SFO, LAX, LAS, DEN) were fully mainline last year. IAD was suspended for the winter.

Similar route/capacity cut and frequency consolation happens in YUL/YYZ. For instance, YUL-LAX/SFO were both 2x daily 223/7M8. YUL-DTW/PHL suspended, as well as YYZ-CMH/IND/CLE/CVG/BDL. And then there's even more suspension out of YEG and YOW... There is probably more but I was mainly focusing on YVR only.

And not sure if there's still a point to list Mainline, Rouge, and Express separately now, since AC now seems to constantly swapping them and use them interchangeably, especially for Rouge. Even if a flight is listed as mainline, it may still become Rouge on the last minute. At least I already gave up tracking the Mainline/Rouge swaps out of YUL/YYZ...

[Alexcaban]

Originally Posted by zahav

Thanks for the background, I of course knew there must be a valid reason as AC is very experienced in the Florida market, so knows where best to allocate capacity to meet demand. I was more expressing my surprise, as a Westcoaster with almost no knowledge of Florida or it's travel demographics. It just stood out to me that AC clearly assigns more capacity and importance to FLL than Miami, even though Miami is the bigger city, the international hub, etc. Without knowing the background, on the surface it would be like YYZ and YUL flying to SNA with more capacity than LAX, it's unthinkable. But the explanations you gave make sense, and now FLL is way more on my radar that before, when I never even thought about it.

Looks like AC has made some transborder changes for the winter season. From YVR, 3/4 of the flights to SFO will be on Jazz CRAs, and 1/4 is a 737. I don't remember what AC had last season, or if there even is a historic norm, but I think this is more Jazz than usual. Of course they have a JV with United, who are 3x daily mainline, so probably roughly equal capacity as usual. But with LAX, 1/4 flights will be Jazz CRA, and 3/4 on mainline (737 and 321 it looks like). And again, UA operates too, 1x daily mainline (I think they used to go Express in winter, so seems like UA is focusing on mainline, and AC is utilizing Jazz more). SMF still daily CRA, and SAN 2x daily CRA, I believe same as usual. But then AC is also operating 1x daily CRA to Las Vegas, I don't think that's ever happened?? They will also have 1x daily mainline 321 now, rather than 737. And then 2x daily CRA to DEN, 1x daily mainline to SNA, PSP, PHX, IAH, ORD, and EWR, and 6x weekly to MIA. So overall very similar to last year I believe, just the emergence of Jazz CRAs on routes like LAX and LAS where they weren't before. I supposed to free up 737s for all the sun flying increases they announced last week?

I am not familiar with last winter at YUL, but looks like LAX is just 1x daily 787, and then LAS is 1x daily A330. I think Vegas has always been Rouge? And not sure LAX frequency or equipment in normal winters, but these two will be 1x daily but widebody. SFO, DEN and IAH are each 1x daily mainline, and then MSP, ORD, DFW, EWR, LGA, BOS, IAD, DCA, ATL are all AC Express, various frequencies for each and I think mostly CRA and E175. Plus then all of the Florida stuff. Not sure how this compares to 2022, I can't even remember YVR last year let alone YUL lol. The AC sections in the YUL wikipedia seem to need several updates just on ones I can see. It's showing BOS, DFW, and ORD as year round mainline, but those all look to be Express only in winter. MIA shows as year round mainline, but it's Rouge. DTW and PHL are seasonal only, but showing as year round currently in the article. Then with Rouge, MSY is showing as Rouge seasonal, but it should be just Express seasonal. And FLL is seasonal Rouge, currently showing year round.

I get nervous updating these lists myself in Wiki, I am not great with the code and syntax with tables, and have accidentally screwed up the entire table on Wiki, and then others had to come and fix it. I don't want to take any chances, especially on someone else's airport lol

Its hard to keep up with last min swaps, I've noticed since post Covid, AC tends to switch short haul very last min.
YUL-MIA, LAS, DFW, LGA, ORD, BOS are all last min changes.
i.e YUL-ORD, BOS at the end of May was showing both routes on Jazz E175, suddenly this week we see A220s back in the mix for the month.

[casper]

So looks like WestJet has been shutdown due to one of its unions and its management not being able to work together.

I had my last WestJet flight on Thursday, it was delays due to aircraft availability after another cancelation. I am now sticking with Air Canada, Porter and Alaska going forward. If one of them screws up in the same way, I may be forced to reconsider my position on WestJet but until then WestJet is on the bottom of the list. WS had a good run being my airline of choice until around this time last year, they have just become far too difficult to work with. Now in addition to difficult they are unreliable.

Their unions and management need to learn how to workout their differences without showing this level of disrespect to their customers. They (and their unions) need to be punished and boycotted for at least a year if not longer.

Hopefully this helps fill the Porter flights. We need a third alternative in the market. If Porter starts to sign deals with the other Oneworld members that would be perfect going forward.

[hehehe]

Originally Posted by casper

So looks like WestJet has been shutdown due to one of its unions and its management not being able to work together.

I had my last WestJet flight on Thursday, it was delays due to aircraft availability after another cancelation. I am now sticking with Air Canada, Porter and Alaska going forward. If one of them screws up in the same way, I may be forced to reconsider my position on WestJet but until then WestJet is on the bottom of the list. WS had a good run being my airline of choice until around this time last year, they have just become far too difficult to work with. Now in addition to difficult they are unreliable.

Their unions and management need to learn how to workout their differences without showing this level of disrespect to their customers. They (and their unions) need to be punished and boycotted for at least a year if not longer.

Hopefully this helps fill the Porter flights. We need a third alternative in the market. If Porter starts to sign deals with the other Oneworld members that would be perfect going forward.

https://x.com/WestJetALPA/status/180...hCTyb4rMQ&s=08

Looks like they just reached a deal. IDK what this was all for, WS could've avoided this strike or at least get it over with by Saturday or late Friday

[LO 044]

Originally Posted by hehehe

https://x.com/WestJetALPA/status/180...hCTyb4rMQ&s=08

...WS could've avoided this strike...

But the point is it didn't. I am by no means pro union but the union played the supply and demand card quite well. They knew the government/arbitration process was going to be slow (what?) and dared WestJet to continue to bleed money and passenger goodwill or replace the mechanics. As others have said, there isn't 700 aircraft mechanics sitting around waiting for a strike to occur to take on work.

On the YEG thread, there are plenty of WS boosters and I always said that WS is no different than AC. Now I will say WS is worse than AC. I can get out of YEG via YVR on AC just as well as via YYC on WS. The only thing that will probably keep me flying with WS is sun destinations assuming the price is good. I won't risk flying Flair and AC's sun routes out of YEG are poor. Other than that, does it really matter if I connect through YYZ or MSP? Not really.

[casper]

Originally Posted by hehehe

https://x.com/WestJetALPA/status/180...hCTyb4rMQ&s=08

Looks like they just reached a deal. IDK what this was all for, WS could've avoided this strike or at least get it over with by Saturday or late Friday

Good that it is over. The airlines and its unions need to learn that they can't treat the passengers as pawns in their internal disputes. They need to be punished for their actions. It is a free market, and passengers are free to fly on the competition instead. Porter and Air Canada are there and deserve to get that business instead of WestJet.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by zahav

The AC sections in the YUL wikipedia seem to need several updates just on ones I can see. It's showing BOS, DFW, and ORD as year round mainline, but those all look to be Express only in winter. MIA shows as year round mainline, but it's Rouge. DTW and PHL are seasonal only, but showing as year round currently in the article. Then with Rouge, MSY is showing as Rouge seasonal, but it should be just Express seasonal. And FLL is seasonal Rouge, currently showing year round.

Most of it has now been updated.

Originally Posted by casper

Good that it is over. The airlines and its unions need to learn that they can't treat the passengers as pawns in their internal disputes. They need to be punished for their actions. It is a free market, and passengers are free to fly on the competition instead. Porter and Air Canada are there and deserve to get that business instead of WestJet.

The right to strike is now a constitutional right in Canada, and is protected under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

As well, it is no longer easy for governments to claim the transportation industry is an essential service. Hence why the Government hasn't intervened too much when components of the air or rail industry have striked as of late.

WestJet should know this, and therefore, they should have planned this better. Blaming the mechanics, which don't have a contract (as this was their first) is silly. The blame rests entirely on the airline.

Apparently all of this was for $8 million dollars in the first year ! WestJet was stupid. They should have paid up weeks ago and avoided this. Instead, the mechanics still got what they wanted, and there has been irreparable damage done to WS's image.

[casper]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Most of it has now been updated.



The right to strike is now a constitutional right in Canada, and is protected under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

As well, it is no longer easy for governments to claim the transportation industry is an essential service. Hence why the Government hasn't intervened too much when components of the air or rail industry have striked as of late.

WestJet should know this, and therefore, they should have planned this better. Blaming the mechanics, which don't have a contract (as this was their first) is silly. The blame rests entirely on the airline.

Apparently all of this was for $8 million dollars in the first year ! WestJet was stupid. They should have paid up weeks ago and avoided this. Instead, the mechanics still got what they wanted, and there has been irreparable damage done to WS's image.

I am not anti-union. If workers chose to organise that is their decision. There is a general principle that generally management gets the union it deserves. Some companies almost never have strikes, others have a problems resolving issues. Clearly WestJet is moving in a certain direction.

If WestJet and their unions drag their customers into their internal dispute in this way, then yes they should expect to be punished by the customer.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by casper

I am not anti-union. If workers chose to organise that is their decision. There is a general principle that generally management gets the union it deserves. Some companies almost never have strikes, others have a problems resolving issues. Clearly WestJet is moving in a certain direction.

If WestJet and their unions drag their customers into their internal dispute in this way, then yes they should expect to be punished by the customer.

For saying you aren't anti-union, you sure sound anti-union. Putting leverage on the customers is the whole point, the workers don't have any other method of pressure on the employer. Going forward, now that the employer knows this new bargaining unit isn't afraid to hit the streets, they might negotiate a little harder rather than relying on the government to try to step in (a tactic the railways always did).

Sure, you as the customer are free to take your business wherever you want, but don't pretend that Air Canada gives any more a shit about you than WestJet does. Their workers will do what's best for themselves and cancel your flight just as easily. Porter will be the same when their workers inevitably decide a bargaining unit will be best for them as their company becomes a major carrier.

I've been in a unionized workforce for 35 years, and I can assure you that every 4 or 5 years when our CBA comes up, what the customers think of whether we make too much or how pissed off they will be if we withdraw our services and they have to go to our competition doesn't enter our minds. For sure, the employer certainly tries to hold that over us (we could lose this account or that account and cost jobs), but we know customers are fickle anyway. It's a big cycle of who they use, there are only a few companies that do what we do, and they are unionized as well and go through this same cycle we do.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

For saying you aren't anti-union, you sure sound anti-union. Putting leverage on the customers is the whole point, the workers don't have any other method of pressure on the employer.

The union and employer need to understand the customer does not like being a pawn in their disagreement. They should resolve their disagreement without dragging us into it.

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Sure, you as the customer are free to take your business wherever you want, but don't pretend that Air Canada gives any more a shit about you than WestJet does. Their workers will do what's best for themselves and cancel your flight just as easily. Porter will be the same when their workers inevitably decide a bargaining unit will be best for them as their company becomes a major carrier.

The vast majority of companies negotiate new contracts with their employee groups without their customers ever being impacted. A strike is normally a a very rare event. Except at WestJet. They have had what 3 periods where they have had to cancel flights due to labour negotiation in under a year. That is not normal.

I have already booked my next two trips one with Alaska instead of WestJet. The other with Air Canada instead of WestJet.

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I've been in a unionized workforce for 35 years, and I can assure you that every 4 or 5 years when our CBA comes up, what the customers think of whether we make too much or how pissed off they will be if we withdraw our services and they have to go to our competition doesn't enter our minds. For sure, the employer certainly tries to hold that over us (we could lose this account or that account and cost jobs), but we know customers are fickle anyway. It's a big cycle of who they use, there are only a few companies that do what we do, and they are unionized as well and go through this same cycle we do.

The fact the impact of your actions on your customer never enters your mind says a fair bit about the culture in your organisation.

As a customer I don't have a say in what employees make. Don't assume I am picking sides, I am not. Thankfully I was only stranded for an hour or two on Thursday. Others were stranded overnight or longer because they guys cant talk to each other effectively.

[thenoflyzone]

Speaking of the mechanic strike over at WS, seems there were some interesting routings across the Atlantic over the weekend, especially for the 737s.

Due to the mechanics being unable to do the ETOPS checks on the aircraft in question, the 737s were forced to stay close to Greenland and Iceland on the way to Europe, in order to be within a 60 min diversion time, if required.

Check the flights on June 28, 29, 30. Flight times were 1 to 1.5 hours longer, depending on the flight, because of it.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ws24
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ws50

Same situation out of YYZ. Flight times were only ~30 minutes longer out of YYZ though.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ws16
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ws34

Flight routings for the 787s out of YYC towards Europe weren't affected much, since the routing usually passes over Greenland and Iceland anyway. Flights to NRT and ICN didn't seem to be affected either.

Originally Posted by casper

They should resolve their disagreement without dragging us into it.

We now know what pay increases they got.

Compounded, it's about 28% over 5 years, plus they get to keep their pension. Considering this is their first collective agreement, it's safe to say they didnt get any increases during the pandemic, and a 28% increase doesn't even cover inflation these last 5-6 years.

If it took a strike to get a mere 28% increase, do you really think they would have been able to solve the problem without a strike? I don't think so.

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

30 to 40% pay raise in the first year, and they voted no.

Hope they know what they are doing.

So apparently, WS was offering a 22% pay raise over 4 years (front loaded, obviously, hence the deceiving comment about a 30 to 40% pay raise the first year, and then probably nothing much the subsequent years), but what WS failed to mention is that they were cutting their pensions at the same time.

Glad the mechanics stuck it out and got a decent salary increase while keeping their pension. It's a shame unions have to fight so hard to get their fair share. Wonder what kind of increases WS management has been getting lately. I wouldn't be surprised if AVH's salary increased more than 28% these last couple of years.

[LO 044]

Originally Posted by casper

The fact the impact of your actions on your customer never enters your mind says a fair bit about the culture in your organization.

Couldn't have said it better myself. This is the problem with unionized work. There is no incentive to improve or do better. It's an adversarial relationship until the next contract is required. Then the union says "we want the moon" otherwise they're really not needed. On the flip side the company gives as low as possible knowing the union is going to ask for the polar opposite. This leads to workers doing the absolute minimum work.

It will be interesting how Air Canada handles their next contract. WestJet is learning the hard way what not to do.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by casper

The fact the impact of your actions on your customer never enters your mind says a fair bit about the culture in your organisation.

Nothing wrong with the culture at our company. We are consistently on those "most admired corporate culture" lists that various consultation companies put out. But when it comes time to negotiate, you can't let the fear of the customer leaving enter into it. The company tries to take stuff away or offer as little as they can, the union asks for more than they know we are going to get. It's always that way. You can sit there all indignant that those workers dared interfere with your life all you want. You are demonstrating the same lack of concern about their lives too when you say they should just take whatever the company offers so your flight doesn't get cancelled.

[theman23]

Yeah, it’s a bit absurd to expect a group of people to give up their pensions so you don’t miss out on your long weekend plans.