Saint John and St. John's... Confusing?

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Is it confusing that Saint John, New Brunswick and St. John's, Newfoundland, two of the oldest cities in Canada, both located in Atlantic Canada, have almost identical names?



St. John's, NL, founded 1583




Saint John, NB, founded 1604


Anyone have any funny or interesting stories and experiences regarding confusion between these two cities with nearly identical names? Or is there really no confusion at all, like some residents of both cities like to claim?

[le calmar]

I see how that could be confusing, especially for newcomers. I think most Canadians would be aware of the difference however. Just a note though, a city is generally considered "founded" when it becomes a permanent settlement. That happened in the 1630's in both cities. Otherwise we could say Toronto was founded in 1720 and Kingston in 1673 due to the temporary and/or military presence at the time, which is not accurate.

The information available on Wikipedia about the year of foundation is often wrong - for the longest time it was referencing the year 1497 as the year St. John's was founded, but I see someone finally edited it.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by le calmar

I see how that could be confusing, especially for newcomers. I think most Canadians would be aware of the difference however. Just a note though, a city is generally considered "founded" when it becomes a permanent settlement. That happened in the 1630's in both cities. Otherwise we could say Toronto was founded in 1720 and Kingston in 1673 due to the temporary and/or military presence at the time, which is not accurate.

The information available on Wikipedia about the year of foundation is often wrong - for the longest time it was referencing the year 1497 as the year St. John's was founded, but I see someone finally edited it.

It’s a little hard to pin down Saint John’s exact founding date, and a little harder to pin down St. John’s’s. I just went with what was listed on Wikipedia.

I think it’s mainly confusing for people outside of Atlantic Canada, which is a bit of an issue to say the least for a city that has been trying to prioritize tourism and immigration. Essentially, it’s a lingering branding and marketing issue.

Personally, I think it’s confusing why St. John, NB went through all of the trouble and cost of a name change to Saint John, NB, around the turn of the 20th century well before Newfoundland even joined Canada, instead of actually changing the name to something unique, and not just remove the abbreviation.

I think many Saint John area locals underestimate how confusing it is for many outside the region of Atlantic Canada, or rather more, just how little the rest of Canada cares about Saint John, New Brunswickers wanting them to fully spell out the name of their city to avoid being confused with St. John’s

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Personally, I think it’s confusing why St. John, NB went through all of the trouble and cost of a name change to Saint John, NB, around the turn of the 20th century well before Newfoundland even joined Canada, instead of actually changing the name to something unique, and not just remove the abbreviation.

[hipster duck]

Not at all confusing. One is Saint John, NB, postal code starts with E, the other is St. John's, NL, postal code starts with A.

Most of the world has stuff like this. In Germany, within the state of Bavaria alone, there are 6 Neustadts:

Neustadt an der Aisch,
Neustadt bei Coburg
Neustadt an der Donau
Neustadt am Kulm
Neustadt am Main
Neustadt an der Waldnaab

How many Springfields are there in the US? Many of them are bigger than either St. John's or Saint John, such as Springfield MA and Springfield IL. If you spend hundreds of dollars to fly to Portland OR and end up in Portland ME, that's on you.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Not at all confusing. One is Saint John, NB, postal code starts with E, the other is St. John's, NL, postal code starts with A.

Most of the world has stuff like this. In Germany, within the state of Bavaria alone, there are 6 Neustadts:

Neustadt an der Aisch,
Neustadt bei Coburg
Neustadt an der Donau
Neustadt am Kulm
Neustadt am Main
Neustadt an der Waldnaab

How many Springfields are there in the US? Many of them are bigger than either St. John's or Saint John, such as Springfield MA and Springfield IL.

I have land in Columbia NH and whenever needing to find it on a list of suggestions (say, landwatch.com for a search) I always have to go through like ten other Columbias (including at least one state capital)

[someone123]

Originally Posted by le calmar

Just a note though, a city is generally considered "founded" when it becomes a permanent settlement. That happened in the 1630's in both cities. Otherwise we could say Toronto was founded in 1720 and Kingston in 1673 due to the temporary and/or military presence at the time, which is not accurate.

For Saint John it is really 1783 when a couple thousand Loyalists arrived and created new townsites. There were Europeans living permanently in the area since the 1600's but that's true all around the region in desirable coastal areas around rivers/harbours and farmland. There were lots of small Acadian villages.

For St. John's there's less of a clear founding date but it also wasn't really a city in the 1700's and earlier. Some forms of development would have happened first in St. John's (streets and buildings being used into the future), others in Saint John. The Loyalists were advanced, had a bunch of expectations around how they wanted things to be run, and developed NB quickly.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by someone123

For St. John's there's less of a clear founding date but it also wasn't really a city in the 1700's and earlier. Some forms of development would have happened first in St. John's (streets and buildings being used into the future), others in Saint John (urban institutions and infrastructure created after the Loyalists arrived). The Loyalists were advanced, had a bunch of expectations around how they wanted things to be run, and developed NB quickly.

Very accurately stated. There was already a seasonal settlement here in 1583. As early as the 1520s (for example, the first letter sent from North America to Europe in 1527, from St. John's) there were already many nations (mostly Basque, Breton, Portuguese, etc.) with seasonal structures here. 1506, I think, is the first reference to "dozens of ships" in St. John's harbour.

But this wasn't a colony like the ones that came in the first years of the 1600s. Lots of fishing rooms, and flakes, and whatever else, but almost no building with even a place to sit, let alone live. Water and Duckworth streets were well-established as Upper and Lower paths before any white person slept overnight onshore in St. John's

[Innsertnamehere]

I know the distinction fairly well as my mother grew up in Saint John so it was drilled into me as a kid.. but definitely, definitely confusing.

[MolsonExport]

Sainte (Ste.) Catherines (Famous Montreal Street).
Saint Catharines (Ontario).

Confusing? Nah. But hard to remember the correct spelling for the latter.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Sainte (Ste.) Catherines (Famous Montreal Street).
Saint Catharines (Ontario).

Confusing? Nah. But hard to remember the correct spelling for the latter.

Not confusing. No different than Vancouver, BC vs. Vancouver, WA; Portland, ME vs. Portland, OR; Ottawa, ON vs. Ottawa, IL, etc.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Not confusing. No different than Vancouver, BC vs. Vancouver, WA; Portland, ME vs. Portland, OR; Ottawa, ON vs. Ottawa, IL, etc.

Don’t forget Ontario, CA.

Vancouver, BC and Vancouver, WA is absolutely confusing, though.


As for the confusion between St. John’s and Saint John, here's a relevant google search given the very name of this forum: St. John's Skyline. I even went incognito and turned on my VPN to a US location to try and make the results less influenced by my location and search history... notice the results are mostly images of the Saint John, NB skyline?

If that's what the results are from the most sophisticated search engine in human history, a literal machine, what do you think the average person west of New Brunswick thinks when they hear Saint John and St. John's? You really don't think there’s no confusion resulting from two relatively small, Atlantic Canadian cities with nearly identical names? Come on now…

[lio45]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Don’t forget Ontario, CA.

Vancouver, BC and Vancouver, WA is absolutely confusing, though.


As for the confusion between St. John’s and Saint John, here's a relevant google search given the very name of this forum: St. John's Skyline. I even went incognito and turned on my VPN to a US location to try and make the results less influenced by my location and search history... notice the results are mostly images of the Saint John, NB skyline?

If that's what the results are from the most sophisticated search engine in human history, a literal machine, what do you think the average person west of New Brunswick thinks when they hear Saint John and St. John's? You really don't think there’s no confusion resulting from two relatively small, Atlantic Canadian cities with nearly identical names? Come on now…

Reminds me of the time SignalHillHiker posted a pic of the surprisingly beefy skyline of New Brunswick, NJ as “not sure which one of Moncton, Freddy or Saint-John but it’s impressive”

[MonkeyRonin]

We're a bunch of Canadian geography nerds, so of course we're attuned to the minor differences between the two names - as would any locals; but to everyone else they're absolutely going to cause confusion. Especially when the names are used phonetically. If I were say, cornering someone at a party and telling them all about Saint John's tallest buildings, the unfortunate listener in that conversation would have no way to tell whether I was referring to the city in New Brunswick or the one in Newfoundland.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by lio45

Reminds me of the time SignalHillHiker posted a pic of the surprisingly beefy skyline of New Brunswick, NJ as “not sure which one of Moncton, Freddy or Saint-John but it’s impressive”

Nice urbanity in New Brunswick. There are also renderings that look even nicer (a few new shiny towers are planned for the area!)

Soon the tallest building in New Brunswick will be outside the province (if it’s not the case already)

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by lio45

Reminds me of the time SignalHillHiker posted a pic of the surprisingly beefy skyline of New Brunswick, NJ as “not sure which one of Moncton, Freddy or Saint-John but it’s impressive”

Not only is there a New Brunswick, New Jersey, there is also a New Jersey, New Brunswick!!!

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Don’t forget Ontario, CA.

Vancouver, BC and Vancouver, WA is absolutely confusing, though.


As for the confusion between St. John’s and Saint John, here's a relevant google search given the very name of this forum: St. John's Skyline. I even went incognito and turned on my VPN to a US location to try and make the results less influenced by my location and search history... notice the results are mostly images of the Saint John, NB skyline?

If that's what the results are from the most sophisticated search engine in human history, a literal machine, what do you think the average person west of New Brunswick thinks when they hear Saint John and St. John's? You really don't think there’s no confusion resulting from two relatively small, Atlantic Canadian cities with nearly identical names? Come on now…

Yes, forgot about Ontario, CA. And it has an airport too; though no flights to Canada.

Don't think anyone would mistake Toronto, ON vs. Toronto, SD.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.57862...5410&entry=ttu

Downtown Toronto, SD:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.57282...5410&entry=ttu

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Sainte (Ste.) Catherines (Famous Montreal Street).
Saint Catharines (Ontario).

Confusing? Nah. But hard to remember the correct spelling for the latter.

Also no one spells out Saint
It's always St. Catharines or St. Kitts to Niagara locals (Kitty short for Catharine/Katharine)

And it's now a growing city of over 149,500 according to the 2023 census estimates.

[Maldive]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Sainte (Ste.) Catherines (Famous Montreal Street).
Saint Catharines (Ontario).

Confusing? Nah. But hard to remember the correct spelling for the latter.

You are just the 4th person (besides me... grew up nearby) in history to spell this part correctly.

But Saint is never used of course... always St. Catharines.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Sainte (Ste.) Catherines (Famous Montreal Street).
Saint Catharines (Ontario).

Confusing? Nah. But hard to remember the correct spelling for the latter.

Is this your way of saying Saint John and St. John's is confusing? Or do you only bring up things related to Quebec and Montreal?

oh, and sorry, Lloydminster, SK/AB ... which isn't really that confusing at all, it's a single municipality on two sides of a provincial border.

St. John's and Saint John would be more like if there was a Fort McMurray, AB and a Ft. McMurray's, MB which were both notable for their oil and gas industries, and all the "newfies" from Saint John, New Brunswick moving there for jobs in the oil patch.

keeping the parade of digressions, I'm surprised no one has brought up Love City yet, Saint John, the smallest island of the US Virgin Islands.

Pretty good example of how two places with the exact same name cannot be easily mistaken or confused with each other, while two places with incredibly similar names and similar general locations often can be.

No one is confusing Portland ME and Portland, Oregon. No one is confusing Sydney, Nova Scotia and Sydney, Australia. But Canadians are absolutely still confusing Saint John, NB and St. John's, NL.

If Saint John had instead went a step further and named it "Saint Jean" after Champlain's 1604 discovery, instead of the "giant leap" from St. John->Saint John, perhaps there wouldn't remain so much written communications confusion between the two SJ's, outside of Atlantic Canada.

I don't think many people would be confusing Saint Jean, NB with Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu, PQ, as they're just not as similar places as Saint John, NB, and St. John's, NL are, despite the closer distance between Quebec and New Brunswick.