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  #1601  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2024, 5:36 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
I hear the federal civil servants prefer the first class cabin on Emirates.
I am certain most employees of most organisations would also prefer Emirates first class over the alternative. To bad employers think otherwise.

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Originally Posted by YOWflier View Post
Federal civil servants must choose the most economical option, and that’s how it should be. But economy /= airfare only. There are many variables driving costs on government travel.
It has been around 25 years since I worked for a federal crown. At the time they had a preferential relationship with Air Canada, complete with backend rebates from Air Canada. The upfront price did not match the final cost at the end of the year.

Over the years I have done some consulting for US government departments where they have been very strict on the Fly America rules.

I think the federal government should buy Canadian when and where compatible with international free trade agreements. Especially if the cost difference is minimal.
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  #1602  
Old Posted Yesterday, 1:42 AM
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Like others said, Canada Jetlines shutting down isn't a shock, it was really only a matter of when, not if. Their route network was so limited, and the routes they did operate already had competition, it's an odd niche and rarely successful. Lynx and Jetlines were always the weakest, and most likely to fold. Flair is kind of like the early days Westjet in some ways: connecting lots of less popular routes and/or destinations, low cost but not polished at it yet, and widely seen as the name in the ULCC market (IMO, Canada has never really been familiar with a ULCC before, not in the true sense at least. Jetsgo sometimes did weird super cheap deals, but I don't think they were exactly a ULCC, especially by today's standards?). WS ended up doing a lot of adding and deleting in the early days, and had so many mil-run routings (YVR-YLW-YYC-YXE-YWG lol, like a 12 trip to Regina haha). Flair doesn't seem nearly as bad in terms of axing tons of routes or destinations, WS used to have so many smaller destinations that had to be cut until Encore came. The equilibrium lots of us mentioned for ages in this thread is happening, that's why none of us are surprised at all . But then you get a different category like Porter, who resembles neither AC or WS. In fact, for a long time their destination map was pretty stagnant, and not that extensive. I never even thought of it much, moreso because it wasn't even operating at Pearson. Being from Vancouver, I thought of them more as like Harbour Air or something, operating from a small terminal, having a limited geographic reach, prop planes. And like Harbour Air, they seemed steady, popular, and hadn't s**t the bed financially like most other airlines. So they kind of came out of nowhere to claim this new identity, and all of a sudden blow up the paradigm. I know of course this didn't come out of nowhere, I'm sure many people on this forum realized it (esp. with the jet order). But still, ambition isn't all there is, they have to really be confident with the performance, and the # of new route launches as a % of their routes before the E90 is insane, especially from an airline that seemed very much comfortable with their quaint island home. So kudos to them for timing things right, and seemingly done a successful job of expanding without imploding (I sure hope I didn't jinx anything lol).

I'm sure Flair is thrilled, and the rest of our domestic airlines too. I can't believe there are still lenders or business people who try starting a new airline, it's such a huge gamble with a terrible probability. Even Flair isn't a new airline, it just evolved and became something new but with a long history as an operating charter operation. Lynx should've known better, since it evolved from Enerjet, who did similar to Flair for years. But they focused too much on YYC and YYZ and got pushed out. Flair went for Waterloo and Kitchener, and some YYZ but not overwhelmingly. People gotta be gluttons for punishment to start an airline, and somehow lenders look past all reality and put money in
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  #1603  
Old Posted Yesterday, 2:22 AM
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A buddy coming back home for the first time in almost a year wasn't into Pearson. But I'm.sharing this because I've been giggling at people jumping for more than a day.

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  #1604  
Old Posted Yesterday, 3:37 AM
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Originally Posted by zahav View Post
Like others said, Canada Jetlines shutting down isn't a shock, it was really only a matter of when, not if. Their route network was so limited, and the routes they did operate already had competition, it's an odd niche and rarely successful. Lynx and Jetlines were always the weakest, and most likely to fold. Flair is kind of like the early days Westjet in some ways: connecting lots of less popular routes and/or destinations, low cost but not polished at it yet, and widely seen as the name in the ULCC market (IMO, Canada has never really been familiar with a ULCC before, not in the true sense at least. Jetsgo sometimes did weird super cheap deals, but I don't think they were exactly a ULCC, especially by today's standards?). WS ended up doing a lot of adding and deleting in the early days, and had so many mil-run routings (YVR-YLW-YYC-YXE-YWG lol, like a 12 trip to Regina haha). Flair doesn't seem nearly as bad in terms of axing tons of routes or destinations, WS used to have so many smaller destinations that had to be cut until Encore came. The equilibrium lots of us mentioned for ages in this thread is happening, that's why none of us are surprised at all . But then you get a different category like Porter, who resembles neither AC or WS. In fact, for a long time their destination map was pretty stagnant, and not that extensive. I never even thought of it much, moreso because it wasn't even operating at Pearson. Being from Vancouver, I thought of them more as like Harbour Air or something, operating from a small terminal, having a limited geographic reach, prop planes. And like Harbour Air, they seemed steady, popular, and hadn't s**t the bed financially like most other airlines. So they kind of came out of nowhere to claim this new identity, and all of a sudden blow up the paradigm. I know of course this didn't come out of nowhere, I'm sure many people on this forum realized it (esp. with the jet order). But still, ambition isn't all there is, they have to really be confident with the performance, and the # of new route launches as a % of their routes before the E90 is insane, especially from an airline that seemed very much comfortable with their quaint island home. So kudos to them for timing things right, and seemingly done a successful job of expanding without imploding (I sure hope I didn't jinx anything lol)…..
Actually we have know idea if Porter financially s**t the bed. As a private company they don’t have to release detailed financials. Ditto every carrier except for AC and AC Express (Chorus). Which is either interesting or scary depending on how you look at it.

For all we know PD is burning through the cash they got from selling YTZ ata furious rate.
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  #1605  
Old Posted Yesterday, 12:26 PM
thenoflyzone thenoflyzone is online now
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
Actually we have know idea if Porter financially s**t the bed. As a private company they don’t have to release detailed financials. Ditto every carrier except for AC and AC Express (Chorus). Which is either interesting or scary depending on how you look at it.

For all we know PD is burning through the cash they got from selling YTZ ata furious rate.
TS is publicly traded as well.

As for PD, it’s almost certain they’re bleeding cash right now. You don’t take delivery of that many E2s, expand operating bases in an already saturated Canadian market, without losing copious amounts of money.

They’ve clearly told investors they plan on making money by a certain date in the future. Those are the only two variables (When that is and if it’s true or not).

But the fact they’re losing money right now is undeniable. Basing the E2s out of YOW and YHZ are smart moves. But I don’t think it’s going to be enough to cover the loses of the rest of their strategy.
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  #1606  
Old Posted Yesterday, 1:21 PM
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The opening of YHU next year will be interesting for Porter. This will be their Montreal base. They will certainly have new Montreal services from all over eastern Canada, which potentially could be popular. For Moncton, we have 2x daily AC service to YUL. I think a competing Porter service to YHU will also be popular.
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  #1607  
Old Posted Yesterday, 2:58 PM
thenoflyzone thenoflyzone is online now
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post


The opening of YHU next year will be interesting for Porter. This will be their Montreal base. They will certainly have new Montreal services from all over eastern Canada, which potentially could be popular. For Moncton, we have 2x daily AC service to YUL. I think a competing Porter service to YHU will also be popular.
Several factors are playing against PD at YHU.

1. YHU isn't YTZ. It will take you as much time, if not more, to reach downtown Montreal from YHU compared to YUL. (Right now, driving from YUL to downtown will take you 20 minutes. from YHU to downtown, it's 23 mins.)
2. PD at YHU will be limited to domestic flights only. Quebecers tend to travel internationally, not domestic. (Just look at the weak domestic numbers at YUL as proof)
3. PD will still keep operating from YUL. Operating out of 2 airports adds costs, with marginal gain. After all, it's the same passenger they are after. It's not like people from the south shore of Montreal aren't flying out of YUL. They are.

If the plan was to leave YUL and move everything to YHU, then I would have said it makes sense. But that's not the plan. So the split operation idea will only make PD bleed even more.

I think their plan with YHU is to build the terminal and then sell it to the highest bidder, just like they did at YTZ. It's a real estate move, to raise much needed capital. Nothing more. Whether they stay at YHU after that is anyone's guess. One thing is for sure, they can't leave YUL. Their tie-up with TS is too important now.
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  #1608  
Old Posted Yesterday, 4:36 PM
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Originally Posted by thenoflyzone View Post
2. PD at YHU will be limited to domestic flights only. Quebecers tend to travel internationally, not domestic. (Just look at the weak domestic numbers at YUL as proof)
It's crazy when you think there are no flights between Quebec City and Halifax. These are the two busiest airports (and metropolitan cities) east of Montreal in Canada. It's been tried and failed. Quebecers aren't big on domestic travel.
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  #1609  
Old Posted Yesterday, 4:52 PM
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Originally Posted by thenoflyzone View Post
Several factors are playing against PD at YHU.

1. YHU isn't YTZ. It will take you as much time, if not more, to reach downtown Montreal from YHU compared to YUL. (Right now, driving from YUL to downtown will take you 20 minutes. from YHU to downtown, it's 23 mins.)
2. PD at YHU will be limited to domestic flights only. Quebecers tend to travel internationally, not domestic. (Just look at the weak domestic numbers at YUL as proof)
3. PD will still keep operating from YUL. Operating out of 2 airports adds costs, with marginal gain. After all, it's the same passenger they are after. It's not like people from the south shore of Montreal aren't flying out of YUL. They are.

If the plan was to leave YUL and move everything to YHU, then I would have said it makes sense. But that's not the plan. So the split operation idea will only make PD bleed even more.

I think their plan with YHU is to build the terminal and then sell it to the highest bidder, just like they did at YTZ. It's a real estate move, to raise much needed capital. Nothing more. Whether they stay at YHU after that is anyone's guess. One thing is for sure, they can't leave YUL. Their tie-up with TS is too important now.
All very good points.

My premise is that there are currently lots of cities in eastern Canada without Porter service to Montreal. Without looking it up, I think the only route pairing is probably YHZ-YUL. As such, there are opportunities to increase route pairing using YHU, including YQM, YFC and YYG. I'm sure other cities in Quebec would also use YHU as well, especially since other Quebec cities would view YHU as a terminal destination (for a visit to Montreal) rather than as a point for onward connections.

I know YUL is blocking YHU for international travel, but, will this always be the case? There are transborder flights from YTZ in Toronto now, offering some copetition for YYZ. At some point in the future, this might still happen in Montreal for YHU as well, especially since YUL has limited growth potential.
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  #1610  
Old Posted Yesterday, 4:57 PM
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It's crazy when you think there are no flights between Quebec City and Halifax. These are the two busiest airports (and metropolitan cities) east of Montreal in Canada. It's been tried and failed. Quebecers aren't big on domestic travel.
It's also crazy there is no direct flight connection between Moncton and QC too, especially considering the linguistic and cultural connections, and the potential for business and student travel between the two communities.

Intercity flight connections in eastern Canada are so truncated compared to western Canada. Everything seems to have to connect in Toronto, Montreal or Halifax. It's just bizarre. Many western cities have multiple direct flight connections that just don't exist in the east.
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  #1611  
Old Posted Yesterday, 5:00 PM
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It's crazy when you think there are no flights between Quebec City and Halifax. These are the two busiest airports (and metropolitan cities) east of Montreal in Canada. It's been tried and failed. Quebecers aren't big on domestic travel.
Well … the two largest metros in western Canada are still not connected by a highway so …
The 1st and 3rd western metros for that matter as well.
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  #1612  
Old Posted Yesterday, 7:11 PM
fanofYOW fanofYOW is offline
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Originally Posted by thenoflyzone View Post
Several factors are playing against PD at YHU.

1. YHU isn't YTZ. It will take you as much time, if not more, to reach downtown Montreal from YHU compared to YUL. (Right now, driving from YUL to downtown will take you 20 minutes. from YHU to downtown, it's 23 mins.)
2. PD at YHU will be limited to domestic flights only. Quebecers tend to travel internationally, not domestic. (Just look at the weak domestic numbers at YUL as proof)
3. PD will still keep operating from YUL. Operating out of 2 airports adds costs, with marginal gain. After all, it's the same passenger they are after. It's not like people from the south shore of Montreal aren't flying out of YUL. They are.

If the plan was to leave YUL and move everything to YHU, then I would have said it makes sense. But that's not the plan. So the split operation idea will only make PD bleed even more.

I think their plan with YHU is to build the terminal and then sell it to the highest bidder, just like they did at YTZ. It's a real estate move, to raise much needed capital. Nothing more. Whether they stay at YHU after that is anyone's guess. One thing is for sure, they can't leave YUL. Their tie-up with TS is too important now.
Honestly, selling part of YHU is most probably what is going to happen. There is also nothing stopping them from adjusting their network based on what's working and what's not, they are building currently after all.

Their plan is to base 35-25-25-15 frames in YYZ-YOW-YVR-YHU/YUL. They still have not exercised their purchase rights for the remaining 25 frames. Could they just forgo it? Or maybe convert those rights to the smaller E190-E2 on thinner routes? I get why they are going after YYZ due to the loyal client base, but 35? Head-to-head with all the other carriers there isn't something I'd go in with confidence. Maybe it should have been the other way around, 25 in YYZ and 35 in YOW. I may be bias but there is zero competition in YOW, no one hubs here except them. Like the CEO said "flights can come and go, air travel is not going to be stimulated, it will only be viable from grabbing share" so they are more than open to adjusting things as time goes on.

Maybe they are going into YOW cautiously because being underserved for so long creates unclear data, but I think YOW will work better for them. In YHZ, the population is so low and they are already overreaching their service options for a city of that size. YVR makes sense because that base can do all the YOW, YYZ, YUL flying.

I am happy to say that I have plans to take 3 trips in 2025 and happy to support PD all 3 times. Gotta help keep them in business somehow, or else YOW will go back to the AC chokehold with barely any service because having us drive to YUL is their wet dream.

Last edited by fanofYOW; Yesterday at 7:47 PM.
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  #1613  
Old Posted Yesterday, 7:14 PM
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Originally Posted by thenoflyzone View Post

I think their plan with YHU is to build the terminal and then sell it to the highest bidder, just like they did at YTZ. It's a real estate move, to raise much needed capital. Nothing more. Whether they stay at YHU after that is anyone's guess. One thing is for sure, they can't leave YUL. Their tie-up with TS is too important now.
Exactly my thoughts as well.
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  #1614  
Old Posted Yesterday, 8:03 PM
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Originally Posted by fanofYOW View Post
Honestly, selling part of YHU is most probably what is going to happen. There is also nothing stopping them from adjusting their network based on what's working and what's not, they are building currently after all.

Their plan is to base 35-25-25-15 frames in YYZ-YOW-YVR-YHU/YUL. They still have not exercised their purchase rights for the remaining 25 frames. Could they just forgo it? Or maybe convert those rights to the smaller E190-E2 on thinner routes? I get why they are going after YYZ due to the loyal client base, but 35? Head-to-head with all the other carriers there isn't something I'd go in with confidence. Maybe it should have been the other way around, 25 in YYZ and 35 in YOW. I may be bias but there is zero competition in YOW, no one hubs here except them. Like the CEO said "flights can come and go, air travel is not going to be stimulated, it will only be viable from grabbing share" so they are more than open to adjusting things as time goes on.

Maybe they are going into YOW cautiously because being underserved for so long creates unclear data, but I think YOW will work better for them. In YHZ, the population is so low and they are already overreaching their service options for a city of that size. YVR makes sense because that base can do all the YOW, YYZ, YUL flying.

I am happy to say that I have plans to take 3 trips in 2025 and happy to support PD all 3 times. Gotta help keep them in business somehow, or else YOW will go back to the AC chokehold with barely any service because having us drive to YUL is their wet dream.
I think turning YOW into a hub would be very smart. People want an option to YYZ. There are two flights a day now between YQM/YOW on Porter. If YOW developed into a real transit point for transcontinental Canadian service, and regional transborder service on Porter, I could see it becoming popular, possibly justifying a third flight from YQM (and, or course, increased frequency from other Atlantic Canadian airports).
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  #1615  
Old Posted Yesterday, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
A buddy coming back home for the first time in almost a year wasn't into Pearson. But I'm.sharing this because I've been giggling at people jumping for more than a day.

With a group name like that, I’m inviting you to come check out the world-famous Tits of Kitchener in person (accommodations taken care of). What’s your schedule like this month? If you’re lucky, you might even experience some Kitchener 🍆 while here. Compare and contrast Slutty St. John’s vs. Kinky Kitchener – may the best gurl win!

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  #1616  
Old Posted Yesterday, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
I think turning YOW into a hub would be very smart. People want an option to YYZ. There are two flights a day now between YQM/YOW on Porter. If YOW developed into a real transit point for transcontinental Canadian service, and regional transborder service on Porter, I could see it becoming popular, possibly justifying a third flight from YQM (and, or course, increased frequency from other Atlantic Canadian airports).
3x daily YOW-YQM seems like a bit too much capacity to me, but I could see them looking into YOW-YXU and YOW-YQG etc
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