CF Pacific Centre Developments

[Graham_Yvr]

is Sephora moving? from the signage it seems that they are moving to a location next to their current store. Is there a tenant lined up for that pretty prime corner space?
I wonder if they had too many issues controlling theft with a street and mall entrance.

Not 'moving', but 'expanding' into the space next. It's all done and ready to open if it's not already. It's quite a bit larger, but does retain it's original corner space.

[officedweller]

Not sure if anyone ever posted a pic of the renovated entrance to the Canaccord Tower:

Pic by me yesterday:

https://i.imgur.com/2m3QdQD.jpg

[officedweller]

By me today.

Howe is repaved and marked and Georgia is being repaved.

https://i.imgur.com/R9aWXlm.jpg?1

[officedweller]

Pic by me Friday june 12th:

https://i.imgur.com/4cSeL71.jpg

[urbanflight]

Before the rotunda:

https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/uploads/r/null/a/a/aa92f8e5be5dfd3d820f224b180fa46afd2b2d1ea8de69b739fe06bed23c0c64/b652f85c-7327-451c-8c11-4a1a2e5825ab-A74108_141.jpg

Full size here:

https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/four-seasons-plaza-791-west-georgia-street

I'll take a public plaza any day instead of that soulless 'Apple store' building.

Imagine a nice green space with a bunch of trees and flowers at this corner instead.

[SpongeG]

Not 'moving', but 'expanding' into the space next. It's all done and ready to open if it's not already. It's quite a bit larger, but does retain it's original corner space.

ok/ I wonder why they had to close the store to do it, udsually retailers can stay open when expanding, like Muji did in metrotown etc.

[jollyburger]

ok/ I wonder why they had to close the store to do it, udsually retailers can stay open when expanding, like Muji did in metrotown etc.

They might remodel the current store to fit into the new store layout.

[Vin]

I'll take a public plaza any day instead of that soulless 'Apple store' building.

Imagine a nice green space with a bunch of trees and flowers at this corner instead.

Amen to that!

However, need to also consider the winter months when there won't be any flowers. An urban F&B concept, complete with green spaces for this area is way better than the "Apple Store" that's for sure.

[officedweller]

Imagine a nice green space with a bunch of trees and flowers at this corner instead.

We used to have that on the public piece of land kitty corner.

[vannick]

ok/ I wonder why they had to close the store to do it, udsually retailers can stay open when expanding, like Muji did in metrotown etc.

:)

[dreambrother808]

What closed store are you referring to? I don't believe the old "Apple Store" is closed, is it?

Sephora

[officedweller]

By me today - glass being removed:

https://i.imgur.com/nHNkk7D.jpg

[officedweller]

More coming down.

Pic by me today:

https://i.imgur.com/4ODrfsH.jpg

[officedweller]

Pic by me today:

https://i.imgur.com/hx5WpQL.jpg

[CivicBlues]

Pic by me today:

https://i.imgur.com/hx5WpQL.jpg

How much longer is Georgia going to be partially blocked off? It's highly irritating that we just finished the water main repair only to have this block off lanes right after for what? An Apple Store :rolleyes:

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

How much longer is Georgia going to be partially blocked off? It's highly irritating that we just finished the water main repair only to have this block off lanes right after for what? An Apple Store :rolleyes:

well they are also replacing the waterproof membrane for the mall. i assume it is the original from the 1970s and is need of replacement. with or without the apple store, it would have needed to happen eventually.

its better they are doing it all in a row anyways and since traffic is still down, it isn't as bad as it could be.

[jollyburger]

well they are also replacing the waterproof membrane for the mall. i assume it is the original from the 1970s and is need of replacement. with or without the apple store, it would have needed to happen eventually.

its better they are doing it all in a row anyways and since traffic is still down, it isn't as bad as it could be.

They said until November but I'm not sure if the schedule was accelerated because of other work that was completed quicker due to Covid shutdown.

[officedweller]

Yup - The mall runs under Georgia St., so it's the roof membrane for the mall that's being replaced.

They'll need to do the south side of Georgia St. as well.
Can't recall if that was done when the Canada Line station was added or not.

[s211]

How much longer is Georgia going to be partially blocked off? It's highly irritating that we just finished the water main repair only to have this block off lanes right after for what? An Apple Store :rolleyes:

They certainly don't need to block two fully-repaved lanes of Howe. :shrug:

[officedweller]

They certainly don't need to block two fully-repaved lanes of Howe. :shrug:

They're probably waiting for the crossing of Georgia to be clear, otherwise those Howe lanes would have to merge back together to cross Georgia (ie where the blue tarp is located).

[s211]

They're probably waiting for the crossing of Georgia to be clear, otherwise those Howe lanes would have to merge back together to cross Georgia (ie where the blue tarp is located).

Understood, but out of the picture, further north on Howe, they have Atco work trailers in the easternmost lane, which open out onto the next lane of traffic, instead of out onto the sidewalk, hence two lanes taken up for the trailers. :shrug:

[officedweller]

Ah, I see.
Then chalk it up to the City allowing lane closures.

[s211]

Ah, I see.
Then chalk it up to the City allowing lane closures.

It does seem odd.

[officedweller]

Pics by me today:

https://i.imgur.com/j3TGyPs.jpg

I think the orange squares mark the support columns that run down through the mall and the underground parkade.
I've added a thin white line where I guess the Apple Store facade will line up with those columns.

https://i.imgur.com/ff0Tzb7.jpg

For reference:

I expect those steps to be more popular for sitting than the existing outdoor parts of the plaza.
I see they have made some of the steps into benches to encourage sitting.

**********

Side note:
They are going to fill-in the loading zone on Georgia in front of the rotunda!
There's already no stopping in front of TD Tower for the buses.

***********

From the DP Report.
Lots of space on the 2nd and 3rd level for classrooms, services.

https://i.imgur.com/MLmWfUB.png
https://development.vancouver.ca/701wgeorgia/documents/planlevel1to3.pdf

[connect2source]

Bye-bye architecturally incorrect atrocity, I waited for this day for years!:worship:

[officedweller]

Pic by me today:

https://i.imgur.com/EoffM2o.jpg

[officedweller]

By me today:

https://i.imgur.com/sb1EqDU.jpg

[dreambrother808]

The death of an icon, symbolic of the decline of our civilization and the lack of new malls downtown. :haha:

[officedweller]

They could helicopter it to a park and grow vines on it.

[Changing City]

The death of an icon, symbolic of the decline of our civilization and the lack of new malls downtown. :haha:

"I like seeing shacks being torn down. For such a prime downtown location, I'm amazed it took so long for this to happen."

[jollyburger]

They could use it to cover the new MLB stadium. :)

[officedweller]

I don't necessarily see it as the death of an icon, but I do see it as the erosion of the theme of alternating plazas down ceremonial Georgia St. (and Burrard St.).

Mind you, nowadays, plazas tend to be liabilities rather than beneficial spaces.

[trofirhen]

I don't necessarily see it as the death of an icon, but I do see it as the erosion of the theme of alternating plazas down ceremonial Georgia St. (and Burrard St.).
Mind you, nowadays, plazas tend to be liabilities rather than beneficial spaces.
That's an interesting statement. Could I ask you why that is?

[whatnext]

"I like seeing shacks being torn down. For such a prime downtown location, I'm amazed it took so long for this to happen."

Well played! :tup:

[Vin]

"I like seeing shacks being torn down. For such a prime downtown location, I'm amazed it took so long for this to happen."

I don't think you know the meaning of "shacks" :rolleyes:


Bye-bye architecturally incorrect atrocity, I waited for this day for years!:worship:

Does this mean this will be next to come down since it is also an "architecturally incorrect atrocity"?
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.2850967,-123.1154501,3a,47.7y,199.43h,91.26t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sk0sC806h04XnG88ydO4odw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dk0sC806h04XnG88ydO4odw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D126.34872%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

[Vin]

The death of an icon, symbolic of the decline of our civilization and the lack of new malls downtown. :haha:

Indeed!

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.282812,-123.1186508,3a,75y,17.66h,107.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPAklgfb1Q_sXK0CMTE0n7A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

To be replaced by one huge in-your-face ugliness.

[TwoFace]

The Architectural Taliban wants everything torn down that doesn't resemble a box.

[Vin]

The Architectural Taliban wants everything torn down that doesn't resemble a box.

Amen to that! Like the second Hotel Vancouver across the street on West Georgia back in the days. Guess what replaced it? A box and a urinal!

[Changing City]

Amen to that! Like the second Hotel Vancouver across the street on West Georgia back in the days. Guess what replaced it? A box and a urinal!

True - but a bit misleading.. The Second Hotel Vancouver was replaced by a surface parking lot for decades. Here it is in a late 1960s Vancouver Archives image. [larger image here (https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/uploads/r/null/5/c/5/5c583c7a9082d442c591e53712c15a3e70ac054fcafc0809c42089bd6369728a/a55a8995-e41b-4aa1-ad3f-412a26fe0454-CVA404-1_141.jpg)]. The site had been vacant for 20 years - [1949 image here (https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/empty-lot-where-second-hotel-vancouver-once-stood-at-granville-and-georgia-streets)]. So the idea for the Pacific Centre came quite a bit later - the second hotel was torn down because the newer Hotel Vancouver was more than enough hotel for the modest city of the day, and after it had been used as temporary housing for the homeless, there wasn't any obvious use for it.

https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/uploads/r/null/5/c/5/5c583c7a9082d442c591e53712c15a3e70ac054fcafc0809c42089bd6369728a/a55a8995-e41b-4aa1-ad3f-412a26fe0454-CVA404-1_142.jpg

[dreambrother808]

The Architectural Taliban wants everything torn down that doesn't resemble a box.

I can't tell if this is satire or not. :haha:

[officedweller]

The demolition of the old Hotel Vancouver was apparently due to a restrictive covenant against hotel use or absent a covenant, just the desire of the then hotel operator (CP or JV of CP and CN or CN's predecessor) to prevent a competitor from opening up. (i.e. like how old Safeway-owned sites have restrictive covenants preventing future supermarket use).

That's an interesting statement. Could I ask you why that is?

Just a thought due to the costs of maintaining security - due to protests, the homeless, vandalism, etc.

[officedweller]

Pic by me today.

Georgia looks like its concrete base is in place.

https://i.imgur.com/9S5Mn1c.jpg

[Vin]

True - but a bit misleading.. The Second Hotel Vancouver was replaced by a surface parking lot for decades. Here it is in a late 1960s Vancouver Archives image. [larger image here (https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/uploads/r/null/5/c/5/5c583c7a9082d442c591e53712c15a3e70ac054fcafc0809c42089bd6369728a/a55a8995-e41b-4aa1-ad3f-412a26fe0454-CVA404-1_141.jpg)]. The site had been vacant for 20 years - [1949 image here (https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/empty-lot-where-second-hotel-vancouver-once-stood-at-granville-and-georgia-streets)]. So the idea for the Pacific Centre came quite a bit later - the second hotel was torn down because the newer Hotel Vancouver was more than enough hotel for the modest city of the day, and after it had been used as temporary housing for the homeless, there wasn't any obvious use for it.

https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/uploads/r/null/5/c/5/5c583c7a9082d442c591e53712c15a3e70ac054fcafc0809c42089bd6369728a/a55a8995-e41b-4aa1-ad3f-412a26fe0454-CVA404-1_142.jpg

That's very lousy reasoning not to protect a heritage structure, which didn't look modest at all. Also, it wasn't like Vancouver had many heritage buildings to begin with, and so letting it come down was indeed an atrocity. Maybe that's why Vancouver has become a provincial town it is today, because nobody ever thinks big, and whatever little we have, we just can't wait to get rid of them. Question for you: why build the third hotel when there is so little demand for room space?

The demolition of the old Hotel Vancouver was apparently due to a restrictive covenant against hotel use or absent a covenant, just the desire of the then hotel operator (CP or JV of CP and CN or CN's predecessor) to prevent a competitor from opening up. (i.e. like how old Safeway-owned sites have restrictive covenants preventing future supermarket use).



Just a thought due to the costs of maintaining security - due to protests, the homeless, vandalism, etc.

Surely the restrictive covenant was conceived and supported by shortsighted people? How archaic.


And now the demolition of the glass dome is even more shortsighted: to replace it with something even uglier and take away a very welcoming entance to the mall.

[GenWhy?]

That's very lousy reasoning not to protect a heritage structure, which didn't look modest at all. Also, it wasn't like Vancouver had many heritage buildings to begin with, and so letting it come down was indeed an atrocity. Maybe that's why Vancouver has become a provincial town it is today, because nobody ever thinks big, and whatever little we have, we just can't wait to get rid of them.

The 2nd hotel existed for 33 years and no one wanted it. Vancouver wasn't really in the "save heritage buildings and make other people pay for it" mood back in 1949 dealing with a decade's old vacant building. It was eventually replaced by a mall...

Not sure if a post-modern glass dome could receive status simply as being the only design in town. Receiving a designation via by-law from the City without owner consent regularly entails that structure tells the city's lived and seen heritage. Not sure what the "newest" heritage designated and legally protected structure in the city is.

[Changing City]

That's very lousy reasoning not to protect a heritage structure, which didn't look modest at all. Also, it wasn't like Vancouver had many heritage buildings to begin with, and so letting it come down was indeed an atrocity. Maybe that's why Vancouver has become a provincial town it is today, because nobody ever thinks big, and whatever little we have, we just can't wait to get rid of them. Question for you: why build the third hotel when there is so little demand for room space?

The second Hotel Vancouver wasn't a heritage building when it was demolished. It wasn't even very old. The part you are referencing was built by the Canadian Pacific Railway; opened in 1916, and closed in 1939. It was demolished in 1949.

The third Hotel Vancouver was started in 1928 by the Canadian Northern Railway, and was part of the deal that allowed that railway to build a station on the filled-in False Creek. It didn't open until 1939. In between there was a huge recession. By the time it was completed neither hotel was really viable - especially once the war started. CN and CP jointly ran the newer hotel, (the one standing today), and apart from using the slightly older building as a barracks, and to house homeless returning soldiers from the war, no further use was found for it.

Officedweller might be right about a restrictive covenant to prevent hotel use, although I've not seen that stated anywhere but on SSP. A 1948 newspaper article seems to contradict that statement: the site was bought by T Eaton and Co to build a modern departmental store. Pressed by the Board of Trade of the day to resell it, or remodel it as a hotel again, Eaton's said "no one is interested in its purchase". It seems unlikely that any hotel operator would have wanted to compete with the newer Hotel Vancouver and the equally new Hotel Georgia across the street, opened in 1932. Eaton's then took 20 years to get round to opening their new store - designed by Cesar Pelli at Victor Gruen & Co, considered at the time the best retail architects for malls in North America.

[officedweller]

Just did a Google search and the prevention of competition may have been the agreement between CP and CN
to operate the 3rd Hotel Vancouver jointly, though I thought I read about not allowing another hotel on the site.
But then again, it may not have been a restrictive covenant on title, as I also recall seeing old plans for the Eaton's store that included a hotel on the roof.

Other articles mention poor construction and deterioration.

EDIT: Found it - in Donald Luxton's heritage review of the Eaton's Building for the redevelopment application.
The original IM Pei design for Eaton's (before Cesar Pelli reworked it) included a rooftop hotel,
so there wouldn't have been a restrictive covenant registered on title (at least for those parcels under the proposed hotel).

https://i.imgur.com/vncMb1e.png
https://vancouver.ca/files/cov/committees/DE-416152-725-granville.pdf

[Changing City]

Just did a Google search and the prevention of competition may have been the agreement between CP and CN
to operate the 3rd Hotel Vancouver jointly, though I thought I read about not allowing another hotel on the site. But then again, it may not have been a restrictive covenant on title, as I also recall seeing old plans for the Eaton's store that included a hotel on the roof.

Other articles mention poor construction and deterioration.

EDIT: Found it - in Donald Luxton's heritage review of the Eaton's Building for the redevelopment application. The original IM Pei design for Eaton's (before Cesar Pelli reworked it) included a rooftop hotel, so there wouldn't have been a restrictive covenant registered on title (at least for those parcels under the proposed hotel).

Thanks for digging that out and confirming that the restrictive covenant didn't exist. The times were hard, and one over-sized (for the time) fancy hotel was all the local economy could handle. The fact that bitter rivals CN and CP entered into a joint management deal shows how tough things were.

The old hotel may not have been well built - or at least well maintained. A demolition worker fell to his death in 1949 when a canopy collapsed - although the inquest fond he was supposed to be demolishing the elevator shaft, and shouldn't have been near the canopy. The gargoyles from the hotel were supposedly preserved and given to the Park Board to exhibit in Stanley Park. I don't think they survived.

[jollyburger]

Thanks for digging that out and confirming that the restrictive covenant didn't exist. The times were hard, and one over-sized (for the time) fancy hotel was all the local economy could handle. The fact that bitter rivals CN and CP entered into a joint management deal shows how tough things were.

The old hotel may not have been well built - or at least well maintained. A demolition worker fell to his death in 1949 when a canopy collapsed - although the inquest fond he was supposed to be demolishing the elevator shaft, and shouldn't have been near the canopy. The gargoyles from the hotel were supposedly preserved and given to the Park Board to exhibit in Stanley Park. I don't think they survived.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/687d54de7012496f614cfc495f371976/fc3e928f66f85839-ac/s500x750/117da73997b1c71fe9e3e4245b71500d42ef62ad.jpg

Illustrated Vancouver did some research on it and it seems they were probably destroyed. A few went to the Vancouver Archives but they were in bad shape and not accepted.

https://illustratedvancouver.ca/post/611260774288162816/lost-relics-of-the-hotel-vancouver-ii

[officedweller]

I wonder if they were stone or terra cotta?

EDIT: The newspaper article says they were stone (which would be crazy heavy cantilevered from the facade like that).

DOUBLE EDIT: The blog post says they were terracotta, which makes more sense (lighter).

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

I wonder if they were stone or terra cotta?

EDIT: The newspaper article says they were stone (which would be crazy heavy cantilevered from the facade like that).

DOUBLE EDIT: The blog post says they were terracotta, which makes more sense (lighter).

people romanticize this building a lot, because we look at photos which are available. ones taken when brand new, and during construction. i would be very curious to know what this building looked like before being torn down. i have a feeling the place was a dump based on little tidbits found online; and there really isn't much on this building. don't get me wrong, i think this building, when new, was beautiful and it is a shame we lost it. there are more than a few buildings that i wish still existed. but what happens is people get lost in the fact that this building was abandoned for a fair amount of time. and as mentioned before, it was a fairly new building still when torn down.

either way, i do think it sucks this building was torn down, but i do see why it happened and do not think it was because we didn't care about history, in this specific case. the Birks building is a whole other story.

though, back on topic. anyone who thinks this replacement for the dome is ugly, clearly is in the minority considering who the architects are and who the client is. these stores are always built with very high quality materials and design in a great way.

[jollyburger]

It might have been interesting for the heritage and massing of the building. But it seems a bit of a jumbled mish mash of blocks especially when people compare this to the Empress or the Palace Hotel in San Francisco.

[Vin]

Just did a Google search and the prevention of competition may have been the agreement between CP and CN
to operate the 3rd Hotel Vancouver jointly, though I thought I read about not allowing another hotel on the site.
But then again, it may not have been a restrictive covenant on title, as I also recall seeing old plans for the Eaton's store that included a hotel on the roof.

Other articles mention poor construction and deterioration.

EDIT: Found it - in Donald Luxton's heritage review of the Eaton's Building for the redevelopment application.
The original IM Pei design for Eaton's (before Cesar Pelli reworked it) included a rooftop hotel,
so there wouldn't have been a restrictive covenant registered on title (at least for those parcels under the proposed hotel).

https://i.imgur.com/vncMb1e.png
https://vancouver.ca/files/cov/committees/DE-416152-725-granville.pdf

From the rendering, it looks to me more like everyone was in a hurry to make this Canadian city look more American, as in USA. As a result, colonial heritage structures were summarily torn down. Again, decision makers, including City oversee-ers, were terribly short-sighted individuals.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/687d54de7012496f614cfc495f371976/fc3e928f66f85839-ac/s500x750/117da73997b1c71fe9e3e4245b71500d42ef62ad.jpg
Illustrated Vancouver did some research on it and it seems they were probably destroyed. A few went to the Vancouver Archives but they were in bad shape and not accepted.
https://illustratedvancouver.ca/post/611260774288162816/lost-relics-of-the-hotel-vancouver-ii

"In a bad shape". How come this phrase sounds so familiar? Ah, but of course, we have a tendency of neglecting older structures and let them slide into a state of disrepair, then paint a really bad picture before brainwashing simple-minded folks to get rid of them. Happens all the time here: the Viaducts would be a prime example.

[officedweller]

You can see the same forces leading to the redevelopment or 'updating' of existing buildings.
Whenever anyone says 'that looks dated' it should raise a red flag.

[officedweller]

It might have been interesting for the heritage and massing of the building. But it seems a bit of a jumbled mish mash of blocks especially when people compare this to the Empress or the Palace Hotel in San Francisco.
The building was added on to multiple times, so apparently the interior spaces did not flow well (would be crazy to see a floorplan!).
Apparently that was also a reason for the new build rather than adding on again.

[logan5]

I can imagine that in 1949, when the building was torn down, people had no idea how awful architecture was to become. If people back then could see the completely water down architecture of today, that hotel would have been saved.

[jollyburger]

I can imagine that in 1949, when the building was torn down, people had no idea how awful architecture was to become. If people back then could see the completely water down architecture of today, that hotel would have been saved.

Yeah all the architecture pre-1949 was amazing. :rolleyes:

[Changing City]

From the rendering, it looks to me more like everyone was in a hurry to make this Canadian city look more American, as in USA. As a result, colonial heritage structures were summarily torn down. Again, decision makers, including City oversee-ers, were terribly short-sighted individuals.

The hotel was closed in 1939, and eventually demolished in 1949. The IM Pei plans were drawn up in 1966, once Eatons brought Cadillac Fairview into the mix. Doesn't seem like anybody was in much of a hurry to do anything. However, it's good to have, on the record, that you would have prefered that they hadn't built the only Downtown mall that we have.

[logan5]

Yeah all the architecture pre-1949 was amazing. :rolleyes:

It was a hell of a lot better than it is today. Even a simple factory from back then looks a lot better than any similar sized structure built today.

https://goo.gl/maps/NNygGUVQVbypdHkM6

Actually, could you show me a picture of a building pre war that matches the ugliness of today?

[jollyburger]

It was a hell of a lot better than it is today. Even a simple factory from back then looks a lot better than any similar sized structure built today.

https://goo.gl/maps/NNygGUVQVbypdHkM6

Actually, could you show me a picture of a building pre war that matches the ugliness of today?

Again, come back in 50 years and all this stuff you call ugly will be heritage and beautiful like that factory.

[Changing City]

Again, come back in 50 years and all this stuff you call ugly will be heritage and beautiful like that factory.

Assuming that the anticipated major earthquake doesn't occur during those 50 years. In which case the converted factory probably won't be standing. The modern building have a better chance.

[logan5]

Again, come back in 50 years and all this stuff you call ugly will be heritage and beautiful like that factory.

We are in an architectural dark age where everything is clad in cheap tacky glass. These buildings will never be worth any level of heritage designation.

Your statement is the equivalent of saying that Justin Beiber will be seen in the same light as Mozart, given enough time.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

We are in an architectural dark age where everything is clad in cheap tacky glass. These buildings will never be worth any level of heritage designation.

this is true i think as well. though i also question the longevity of these new buildings. will people really want to replace these curtain walls on a building that is 50/60yrs old? maybe on an office tower, but i don't see a strata wanting to do it.

we haven't really gotten to the point of needing to replace curtain walls, yet. i imagine it will be coming up in the next 10-20yrs soon though for most of yaletown.

anyone know how long a standard curtain wall lasts?

[TwoFace]

One of my rentals is 16 years old and we just voted to proceed with sealant replacement next summer.

[Vin]

You can see the same forces leading to the redevelopment or 'updating' of existing buildings.
Whenever anyone says 'that looks dated' it should raise a red flag.

Exactly, hence my constant frustration whenever any significantly built and interesting buildings are slated to be torn down, especially those that are unique and can one day become Vancouver`s heritage structures. We have already lost quite a few recently, and I blame squarely on the City`s archaic development policies.


The building was added on to multiple times, so apparently the interior spaces did not flow well (would be crazy to see a floorplan!).
Apparently that was also a reason for the new build rather than adding on again.

If there is no demand for more room, then there wouldn't be any additions to the existing structure.

So much for the claim that Vancouver "did not need more hotel rooms" at a time when it was still a backwater. Isn't that kind of stupid reasoning also used today, such as emergency vehicles getting stuck on the viaducts, or that they would come down in a jiffy when there's an earthquake.

[Vin]

this is true i think as well. though i also question the longevity of these new buildings. will people really want to replace these curtain walls on a building that is 50/60yrs old? maybe on an office tower, but i don't see a strata wanting to do it.

we haven't really gotten to the point of needing to replace curtain walls, yet. i imagine it will be coming up in the next 10-20yrs soon though for most of yaletown.

anyone know how long a standard curtain wall lasts?

Funny, you should go to any old European city and see their structures able to withstand centuries of wear and tear, conflicts including the two World Wars, or even natural disasters. And of course, we are Vancouver we couldn't even handle a beautiful 90-year-old heritage building. I suggest stratas to start saving up.

[Changing City]

And of course, we are Vancouver we couldn't even handle a beautiful 90-year-old heritage building.

Which 90-year-old heritage building? The hotel that was demolished on the CF Pacific Centre site (that this thread is about) was 33 years old when it was demolished in 1949 and hadn't been used as hotel since 1939. And that second Hotel Vancouver (completed in 1916) replaced one built in 1888, and a very fancy Italianate 1893 addition - so those were both less than 30 years old when they were torn down.

[Feathered Friend]

Funny, you should go to any old European city and see their structures able to withstand centuries of wear and tear, conflicts including the two World Wars, or even natural disasters. And of course, we are Vancouver we couldn't even handle a beautiful 90-year-old heritage building. I suggest stratas to start saving up.

It's important to point out that the cities that bore the worst of the world wars, didn't have many / any surviving structures. (Let alone the human cost)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Warsaw#Warsaw's_rebuilding

[Vin]

Which 90-year-old heritage building? The hotel that was demolished on the CF Pacific Centre site (that this thread is about) was 33 years old when it was demolished in 1949 and hadn't been used as hotel since 1939. And that second Hotel Vancouver (completed in 1916) replaced one built in 1888, and a very fancy Italianate 1893 addition - so those were both less than 30 years old when they were torn down.

I was saying if it survived till now, wouldn't it be 90 years old? It's even more criminal to tear down a 30-year old building when it has lots of life left in it, especially when there isn't a lot in the city that has anything close to its grandeur and elegance.


It's important to point out that the cities that bore the worst of the world wars, didn't have many / any surviving structures. (Let alone the human cost)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Warsaw#Warsaw's_rebuilding

You do know that's not the point of the discussion here right?

[officedweller]

Pic by me yesterday.

Georgia paved and lined.

https://i.imgur.com/dtiQa6S.jpg

[jollyburger]

Pic by me yesterday.

Georgia paved and lined.



I assume they are going to switch to the other side of the road now?

[officedweller]

I suppose so, unless they did the other side a few years ago. I remember the sidewalk in front of TD Tower being torn up but can't remember if they did the roadway too.

[jollyburger]

I suppose so, unless they did the other side a few years ago. I remember the sidewalk in front of TD Tower being torn up but can't remember if they did the roadway too.

They booked until November 2020 for roadwork and an article mentioned they would do it in two phases with the north side and south side being closed alternately.

From Google Maps it look like just the sidewalk along Georgia and Howe Street in 2012.

[officedweller]

Thanks!

[officedweller]

By me today:

Working on the south side of Georgia now.

https://i.imgur.com/v1Fng4t.jpg

[officedweller]

Pic by me today.

Hoarding is up around the site now.
North sidewalk still not open but should be soon (?)

https://i.imgur.com/OYYkQbc.jpg

[officedweller]

Pics by me this evening.
You can see the thickness of the concrete slab under the roadway.

https://i.imgur.com/B3LGdaK.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/GdtS7ru.jpg

[bluefox]

It's funny, now that the rotunda is gone you really notice how the cladding of buildings on the north side of Georgia mirrored the other side of the street with the TD tower and old Eatons/Sears building. I never actually took in that white urinal tile being on that side because the rotunda was so prominent.

[officedweller]

It wraps all the way down to Dunsmuir.
Cadillac Fairview also tried to hide it over the Four Seasons driveway with a tacked-on canopy.
... and has removed all of it on the Granville side - replaced with white and patterned spandrel and white marble.

[Vin]

The hotel was closed in 1939, and eventually demolished in 1949. The IM Pei plans were drawn up in 1966, once Eatons brought Cadillac Fairview into the mix. Doesn't seem like anybody was in much of a hurry to do anything. However, it's good to have, on the record, that you would have prefered that they hadn't built the only Downtown mall that we have.

Come on, if they were to preserve the original hotel building, the mall can go somewhere else, like any other cities in the world that respect their heritage structure do. I'd rather prefer it that way. I'm always amazed how you stick to the status quo like a dried up super glue.

[officedweller]

The Pacific Centre and Robson Square projects were the mega-project of their day.
It wasn't just a question of placing a mall somewhere.
It was about revitalizing a deteriorating downtown core.

A special Act was passed by the BC legislature to authorize the City entering into certain leases for the underground parkade and probably the Howe St. tunnel.

https://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/consol17/consol17/00_68072_01

... and that was after a very controversial expripriation by the City (or Province?) to assemble the lands for the private developer.
The "public interest" referenced below being the revitalization of the downtown core.

In Ingledew’s Ltd. v. City of Vancouver, Ingledew’s Ltd. challenged the City of Vancouver’s
expropriation of Block 42 for the Pacific Centre development. While the challenge succeeded
on the argument that the provisions in the development scheme regarding parking were
uncertain and could not be severed from the entire redevelopment scheme, the Court rejected
a number of other grounds on which the expropriation was challenged, including the argument
that the City was effectively loaning its expropriation powers to the developer that had been
selected by the City to undertake the redevelopment of Block 42. The Court deferred to the
City on the issue of whether the redevelopment of the block by a private developer was in the
public interest. ...
https://www.younganderson.ca/assets/seminar_papers/2018/Expropriation-201.pdf

PS - here are some pics of the Gruen and Pei proposal for Block 42 and 52.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jmv/albums/72157668492616146/

[officedweller]

By me today - not much progress.
Just at the mall connection.

https://i.imgur.com/6Ix8uji.jpg

[s211]

Still blocking two lanes of Howe? Thanks, CF.

[officedweller]

A notice sent around the office said the next phase is a patch in the middle of the Georgia/Howe intersection.

The curb lane is now open on Howe, but the middel lanes are blocked, there will only be one through lane southbound and left turns to Georgia are prohibited.

[officedweller]

Pics by me Friday, Sept 11th:

This has been on there a while.
It could mean that they will clad the tower over top of the concrete panels,
like CF did at the Simpson Tower in Toronto (awful looking reclad).

https://i.imgur.com/BnMKzZ0.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/2mdDQg4.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/TPdGgJj.jpg

[jollyburger]

Seems like they just temporarily covered over a section of the wall they were working on. There's some loose material on the ground.

[officedweller]

In earlier shots it looked like any other section of wall.
There was some scaffolding around it in July.
I guess it'll be wait and see.

[officedweller]

May 12th:

Pics by me today.

https://i.imgur.com/J8aQhur.jpg


July 9th (scaffolding was gone by July 24th):

Pics by me today:

https://i.imgur.com/ff0Tzb7.jpg

[officedweller]

Pic by me Monday, Sep 21:

https://i.imgur.com/ezNIOQd.jpg

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

nice, Georgia looks good; glad is it open fully now with school and things back. cant wait to see the new not-an-Apple-Store to be built. :tup:

[officedweller]

Most of the metal ring is now down.
Howe is open except for the eastern-most curb lane.

[s211]

Most of the metal ring is now down.
Howe is open except for the eastern-most curb lane.

The photo suggests two lanes remain closed, if what I'm seeing are cones on the road.

[jollyburger]

The photo suggests two lanes remain closed, if what I'm seeing are cones on the road.

I think those are to restrict traffic because they were doing work on the opposite side of West Georgia which was blocking a lane.

[officedweller]

The photo suggests two lanes remain closed, if what I'm seeing are cones on the road.

It's been pared back to just one lane since that pic was taken.

[s211]

It's been pared back to just one lane since that pic was taken.

Christmas coming early! :cheers:

[officedweller]

Throwback ...

From the
1975 Cadillac Fairview Annual Report:

https://i.imgur.com/K8UROG0.png
https://digital.library.mcgill.ca/hrcorpreports/pdfs/6/633427.pdf

Four Seasons Hotel under construction and the plaza in its original form.

https://i.imgur.com/o2PA83Y.png
https://digital.library.mcgill.ca/hrcorpreports/pdfs/6/633427.pdf

https://i.imgur.com/H0W7qYf.png
https://digital.library.mcgill.ca/hrcorpreports/pdfs/6/633427.pdf

From the
1979 Cadillac Fairview Annual Report

Note the drop in size (due to BC Tel pulling out and building The Boot).

https://i.imgur.com/ZS1LfBI.png
https://digital.library.mcgill.ca/hrcorpreports/pdfs/6/633426.pdf

[jollyburger]

Throwback ...

From the
1979 Cadillac Fairview Annual Report

Note the drop in size (due to BC Tel pulling out and building The Boot).

https://i.imgur.com/ZS1LfBI.png
https://digital.library.mcgill.ca/hrcorpreports/pdfs/6/633426.pdf

Not sure of the timing but they announced the Boot in August 1974.

https://img.newspapers.com/img/thumbnail/492822772/400/400/0_0_4266_6820.jpg?cs=604800

August 20, 1974 Vancouver Sun

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/492822772/

There's another article in the Province from June 1974. Just an excerpt couldn't read the article:

"He said he encouraged B.C. Tel to locate elsewhere and to talk with Burnaby Mayor Tom Constable. The B.C. Tel building should prove to be a..."

Sounds like it was Art Phillips the mayor at the time.

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/500715770/

[officedweller]

I read an article somewhere that BC Tel was to occupy the 3rd Pacifc Centre Tower but backed out.
Might have taken them that long to decide to proceed with a smaller building after years of looking for a replacement lead tenant?

EDIT - it's noted on Emporis:

This building originally was to have been 38 floors but the anchor tenant built its head office at Brian Canfield Centre,
beginning a trend to locate outside the downtown core.
https://www.emporis.com/buildings/113188/canaccord-tower-vancouver-canada

[jollyburger]

Again no article text so hard to know exactly what happened, but I guess Philips promised no new Pacific Centre complexes as well so maybe that helped push BC Tel over to Burnaby. They got elected in 1973. I assume the BC Tel building mentioned below is the one that was planned for Pacific Centre.

Phillips to seek new deal to cut Pacific Centre loss

Mayor Art Phillips said today city council will meet ... if it is given the air rights on the site of the. proposed B.C. Tel building.


Vancouver Sun January 5, 1973

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/492621452/

[jollyburger]

Sounds like there was even something happening for BC Tel at Bentall at one time as well:

B.C. Telephone, Bentall Centre - proposed

July 3, 1970 (Creation)

https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/b-c-telephone-bentall-centre-proposed

Here's some definitive Vanouver city council meetings on the negotiations for the BC Tel building in 1972.

The Special Committee has met on three occasions with
a representative of Fairview Corporation and has carried on correspondence with Fairview Corporation relative to a fair basis upon
which City Council would approve the action of Fairview Corporation
to sell to B.C. Telephone Company, air space to provide the site
for a 37 storey tower. The foregoing would be achieved by creating
an air space parcel on parcels under the "Air Space Titles Act of
British Columbia".

https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/special-council-meeting-minutes-dec-29-1972

This is also part of the city wanting lighter colours for the glass after people complained about the TD and IBM towers.

Another Sun article from March 22, 1973

B.C. Tel quits Block 42 on issue of design change

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/493215302/

Wisdom from Alderman Rankin:

"If B.C. Telephone Company docs not build in Block 42, it will certainly build elsewhere
in the city and we will certainly receive taxes from that development."

https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/uploads/r/null/7/7/77e8791eaf59587525b2dd26072f89c5de8ea50f6a7f6ce563d06c3f15e27f68/c2782f15-d22b-4002-a050-1ece3ca72cf9-1972-12-29_SPEC.pdf

That makes even more sense why they built directly on the boundary of Vancouver.

Short summary: City lost some parking money revenue because Eatons moved late into Pacific Centre (didn't want to move during Christmas season), City wanted Fairview to front some money on those losses and design changes for air rights. Telus would only build if they could own the building but that required the air rights that Fairview didn't own.

[officedweller]

Juicy details - nice find!

Did you note the recitals to the first resolution?

https://i.imgur.com/abtUgMI.png
https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/uploads/r/null/7/7/77e8791eaf59587525b2dd26072f89c5de8ea50f6a7f6ce563d06c3f15e27f68/c2782f15-d22b-4002-a050-1ece3ca72cf9-1972-12-29_SPEC.pdf