Vancouver Downtown Streetcar | Proposed

[WarrenC12]

The problem is that there are already Nimbies who have expressed their disdain for any streetcar running through Coal Harbour, INCLUDING a former mayor of Vancouver, who vows to fight it if it ever gets close.

Which mayor would that be? I'm not suggesting it go down the shoreline. What is the proposed route? Hastings would be a good pick I'd say.

[agrant]

The problem is that there are already Nimbies who have expressed their disdain for any streetcar running through Coal Harbour, INCLUDING a former mayor of Vancouver, who vows to fight it if it ever gets close.and their reason was?

[Metro-One]

:previous: Because they moved downtown so they could shop close to home but still have the peace and quiet of the suburbs with no lights, noise, trains or upside down churches upsetting their serenity!

[WBC]

Guys I know that you are excited about this streetcar and I would like to see it built, but this project has been talked about for the last 10-15 years or longer and has gone nowhere. And it will go nowhere for a couple of reasons:

1) There is absolutely no way that Translink (and the suburbs) or the province will finance what essentially amounts to a tourist attraction for Vancouver. In terms of actully moving people around this system makes no sense for the locals. It esentially connects in roundabout way the rich parts of town with tourist destinations. And there is a bus/sky train network in place that covers most of these destinations anyway.

2) NIMBY's - Coal Harbour and Yaletown

[agrant]

Guys I know that you are excited about this streetcar and I would like to see it built, but this project has been talked about for the last 10-15 years or longer and has gone nowhere. And it will go nowhere for a couple of reasons:

1) There is absolutely no way that Translink (and the suburbs) or the province will finance what essentially amounts to a tourist attraction for Vancouver. In terms of actully moving people around this system makes no sense for the locals. It esentially connects in roundabout way the rich parts of town with tourist destinations. And there is a bus/sky train network in place that covers most of these destinations anyway.

2) NIMBY's - Coal Harbour and YaletownWell these Nimby's have a pretty weak ass case.

[jlousa]

Nimbies won't kill this, the only thing will be a lack of money. Heck the timing sucks but lets raise the hotel tax an extra dollar/night and have the city go it alone. Translink won't object to running the line they just do not have the funds to pay for it.

[hollywoodnorth]

Nimbies won't kill this, the only thing will be a lack of money. Heck the timing sucks but lets raise the hotel tax an extra dollar/night and have the city go it alone. Translink won't object to running the line they just do not have the funds to pay for it.

agreed :)

[clooless]

Originally Posted by Rusty Gull
The problem is that there are already Nimbies who have expressed their disdain for any streetcar running through Coal Harbour, INCLUDING a former mayor of Vancouver, who vows to fight it if it ever gets close.

Which mayor was that? Campbell?

I don't understand the logic of such a position. Is a streetcar all that different from a bus? Are the the NIMBYs opposed to bus service as well?

*shakes head*

Anyway, raggedy13 mentioned that it would be a boon for tourists and locals alike if the streetcar line extended to Vanier Park. I completely agree, but mark my words, it will never happen. If you think the NIMBYs at Coal Harbour like to bitch, just wait until the Kitsilano Whine Machine gets up to speed. I lived in Kits for a while, just off Cornwall Avenue. You have no idea how deep the sense of entitlement is amongst the residents there -- look what they did to the tour buses.

[mattropolis]

Art Philips and his wife former BC finance minister Carole Taylor came out against the streetcar.

[WarrenC12]

Art Philips and his wife former BC finance minister Carole Taylor came out against the streetcar.

Carole... there's definitely something wrong with people who spell their name that way. :D

I don't see a problem with NIMBYs. As a former Yaletown resident, I'd much rather have an electric streetcar than diesel bus driving by. :shrug:

[DKaz]

Is that the same finance minister who wore some new hardcore expensive Gucci shoes during the unveiling of the budget?

[LotusLand]

Is that the same finance minister who wore some new hardcore expensive Gucci shoes during the unveiling of the budget?

Yep :) I think the guys at 99.3 the fox labeled her a GILF. The first time I ever heard that word. She's a smart one that one and could easily have run for premier or mayor of Vancouver. Much better than Gregor :haha:

[DKaz]

Good grief, if she was mayor the streetcar project wouldn't even get to Phase 0. She'll be protesting with her Bimmer, threatening to throw a Caffe Artigiano cappucino at any construction workers who dares cross her blockade. How can she complain about a streetcar when Georgia St is already super noisy from all the traffic.

What does GILF stand for?

[raggedy13]

^If you know what MILF stands for just go back a generation...

[SpongeG]

the stanley park extension would be great if you lived in the WOD (west of denman) you could stroll down and catch the streetcar much easier to get to get around for them

[Mac Write]

Here's a big idea that would really get attention. Why not have the streetcar use the existing track and go right into Grandville Island (yes it's single tracked but it would be a loop for both directions). Would that really help reduce traffic in Grandville Island?

[agrant]

Here's a big idea that would really get attention. Why not have the streetcar use the existing track and go right into Grandville Island (yes it's single tracked but it would be a loop for both directions). Would that really help reduce traffic in Grandville Island?Interesting idea, but I don't see how. The stop, which is at the entrance to Granville Island, is just a 5 minute walk to the market. Taking people that extra distance won't decrease pedestrians or cars.

I think your idea might work for Stanley Park though. Have the streetcar go right in and loop around the eastern half, and return to Georgia St.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Problem is that when it's busy granville island traffic crawls. So you may as well walk the little extra distance instead of slowing down a mostly grade separated line.

[worldwide]

granville island always makes me laugh for that reason. when traffic is backed up past west 2nd and nobody is moving, why do more people wait in line. even once they do get on the island where are they going to park? it really boggles the mind... i mean driving cars in the city, the drivers always get screwed over, and its their own damn fault, but all they can do is clench the wheel and complain about traffic. i wish people would just drive to the city and then just park for the day.

[wrenegade]

Problem is that when it's busy granville island traffic crawls.

I hadn't been to Granville Island during the day in years. Literally many many years. It took me 45 minutes just to drive around that stupid place. I didn't even want to park, it was supposed to be a quick trip for my gf to grab 2 things from the market. What an absolute disaster.

[Rusty Gull]

Just to confirm what Mattropolis already alluded to, it was and is Art Phillips who is against the streetcar travelling through Coal Harbour on the way to Stanley Park. He made his case in Vancouver Magazine, and said something to the effect that he would fight like hell to keep it from his neighbourhood.

What a visionary.

[raggedy13]

^Did he explain his reasoning in the article? Was it a problem with noise?

[SpongeG]

he paid millions and doesn't want common people in his hood

[Mac Write]

Not everyone can walk easily. So the streetcar going right into the Island and making a few stops would drastically improve ridership.

[agrant]

Not everyone can walk easily. So the streetcar going right into the Island and making a few stops would drastically improve ridership.Ok. A few stops on Granville Island... Hmmmm...

[Mac Write]

Market enterance, Kids Only, Emlicar, etc.

[SpongeG]

that would get kind of annoying - maybe just one on the island itself

but i think they want to expand it west don't they?

[fever]

From yesterday:

Alder looking east, you can see how far the sleepers have been laid.
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/8219/alder1.jpg
By bob1324987134290 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/bob1324987134290), shot with DMC-LZ10 (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=DMC-LZ10&make=Panasonic) at 2009-03-08

This switch was by Oak
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/3404/switch.jpg
By bob1324987134290 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/bob1324987134290), shot with DMC-LZ10 (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=DMC-LZ10&make=Panasonic) at 2009-03-08

[zilfondel]

^^^ hmm, its amazing how bent rails can get over time. Once they get the CWR in there, it'll be a nice, smoooooooooooooth ride. :)

[agrant]

Market enterance, Kids Only, Emlicar, etc.and one for Bridges and one for the Keg.

[metroXpress]

^^^ hmm, its amazing how bent rails can get over time. Once they get the CWR in there, it'll be a nice, smoooooooooooooth ride. :)



^ Agree. They should keep them and put it in the museum? It is, after all, part of the Downtown Historic Railway.

[The_Henry_Man]

One question: Say if COV/Translink wants to double-track the streetcar rail tracks in the future, is it expensive to move them to accomodate room for the 2nd track? And how long does it take to move them?

[deasine]

One question: Say if COV/Translink wants to double-track the streetcar rail tracks in the future, is it expensive to move them to accomodate room for the 2nd track? And how long does it take to move them?

There is more than enough space to include a second track.

[fever]

That's a new switch. All the older rails west of heather were removed before they started working on the new track bed.


I was under the impression that this section of right of way was wide enough for three tracks. Anyone remember or have the rfp documents?

[Mac Write]

I am serious about the Grandville Loop as less walking/closer stop will increase ridership. Translink is all about accessibility and all. Due to my disability I am unable to walk from the bus stop into Grandville Island so I am unable to go there since Transit isn't close enough.

[deasine]

That's a new switch. All the older rails west of heather were removed before they started working on the new track bed.

I was under the impression that this section of right of way was wide enough for three tracks. Anyone remember or have the rfp documents?

Yes that is correct.

[agrant]

I am serious about the Grandville Loop as less walking/closer stop will increase ridership. Translink is all about accessibility and all. Due to my disability I am unable to walk from the bus stop into Grandville Island so I am unable to go there since Transit isn't close enough.I don't know the nature of your disability, like if you can walk at all. If you don't mind me asking, can you drive?

[jlousa]

I believe he's/she's mentioned earlier that he's/she's legally blind, not sure if there is anything else.

Anyways I don't think we need the streetcar to veer into Granville Island, it's quicker to walk anywhere in there then to drive or take a streetcar.

[DKaz]

I say they put in a minature train to serve Granville Island. Kids and parents would love it, seniors and people with disabilities would appreciate it, the rest of us can walk.

[twoNeurons]

@Mac Write. Just as an FYI, if you're using Voice to Speech, you may want to correct "grandville." There's no "D" in Granville.

Anyway, the only way I see a streetcar into Granville working is if it ran along its own ROW on Granville Island in some spots.

[Mac Write]

I don't use Text to Speech. I can see.

[wrenegade]

Forgot to post these last night. A couple shots from the Laurel St bridge.

Looking east towards Cambie:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3567/3351142250_ea4cbcb4c8_b.jpg

Looking west towards Granville:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3600/3350318387_0a0f4ea8a9_b.jpg

[metroXpress]

^ Thanks for the wonderful pictures.

[eduardo88]

are they keeping the wooden poles?

[zivan56]

^^ Considering they put in a new layer of gravel, which the poles make relatively harder to do, I would think they are staying.
Why is everyone going crazy about the look of the poles in the middle of what is essentially a deep ditch?

[DKaz]

are they keeping the wooden poles?

This has been discussed MANY times before, the poles are staying. Volunteers spent countless hours putting them up, we're not going to tear them down.

[djmk]

i do not mind the wooden poles at all. I think they blend into the vegetation quite nicely. as well, wooden poles is vancouver heritage and it me gives a warm feeling.

however, it would be nice if they were straight.... i'm just saying...

[officedweller]

CoV is moving ahead with the redevelopment of Pacific Boulevard (note the comment that the streetcar will be in the median, and left turn lanes at Davie and at Drake are gone):

http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/20090324/documents/a7.pdf

[Metro-One]

Why so many trees on the mediums? Shrubs, flowers and grass work just fine, having to many trees make the streets feel crowded, it is nice to have a few roads that feel more open.

[LeftCoaster]

Yeah I don't think that really works for Pacific, the street is too wide and the podiums too short. I do agree though that we need some more open feeling roads that aren't completely overgrown with vegetation. I think Granville would fill that void nicely, as would a street or two on the east side.

I actually really like the idea of the closely spaced thick vegetation on Pacific, the neighbourhood and street will lend itself quite well to that kind of shady peaceful street design.

[officedweller]

Interesting that they only labelled the median trees - suggests that the sidewalk trees will remain (which is a good thing - as opposed to clear cutting and replacing with a different species).

[djmk]

Norway maples can grow fast into big trees and can be very pretty in the fall.

however, if i'm not mistaken, their roots grow rather close to the surface and can wreck the pavement.

[Stingray2004]

Am I missing something here??

A future median street car station at Pacific and Drake, yet the remainder of the median will be taken up by trees instead of cleared for streetcar tracks? :D

[LeftCoaster]

Streetcar will run with the traffic, the area for the station will not have trees on it.

[DKaz]

Yah, that's why they call it a STREETcar. lol.

[SFUVancouver]

A bit of an update, the rails for the demonstration line have been delivered to the railhead at Charleson Road and Moberly Road (the bus loop). A company out of Illinois has a truck there and they are welding the rails together into a single continuous length. Obviously when it is long enough they will start welding together the second rail.

[Canadian Mind]

Why don't they have a streetcare goes down Granville street? All the lines seem t go across downtown and the southshore of false creek, but not across. Would give alot more options.

[Metro-One]

Norway maples can grow fast into big trees and can be very pretty in the fall.

Why use Norway Maples? they seem to take forever to bud in the spring. If i were to choose i would use Japanese Cherry.

[Stingray2004]

Streetcar will run with the traffic, the area for the station will not have trees on it.

You're right! Silly me. After seeing pics of the current line being rebuilt along its own ROW, I still had this thingy in my head that it would go down the median of Pacific Boulevard separate from traffic.

But that's why its called a street car. :D

[Metro-One]

Thats what i was thinking, since from Science Word to Granville Island it will generally have its own ROW doesn't that make it more similar to an LRT? If not does it mean that that line could be easily converted?

[DKaz]

Well streetcars can run on it's own ROW or on the street, LRTs can as well. I think the only thing separating the two is the system capacity.

[officedweller]

Apparently, the City doesn't like Japanese cherry trees due to their susceptibility to disease. It's removing them over time - i.e. on Georgia Street.

I would expect that some of the median trees on Pacific would have to be removed to allow installation of the streetcar's overhead caternary wire system.

[Metro-One]

Apparently, the City doesn't like Japanese cherry trees due to their susceptibility to disease. It's removing them over time - i.e. on Georgia Street.

Are you kidding me! That is one of our city's most beautiful aspects are the rows of cherry trees! Gah! Could you even imagine Burrard station without the cherry trees? Those ugly eastern Maples take forever to bud and shed their leaves so early, most of the year they are ugly skeletons!

[wrenegade]

I wish we had more Cherry Trees in this city. I absolutely love them.

[djmk]

i love those Cherry Trees as well.

however, i would also be happy with trees that offered some colour in the winter months as well.

[Vancity]

i love those Cherry Trees as well.

however, i would also be happy with trees that offered some colour in the winter months as well.

I'm with you on this one.

[officedweller]

West Georgia Street Tree plan 1998 - as the existing trees die off or become unhealthy, they will be replaced with maple trees (not new cherry trees). I don't think that there are many cherry trees east of Burrard (if any?) anymore. The ones in front of the Bank of Montreal (401 West Georgia) were removed last year (and maples recently planted) and the ones near Seymour removed a couple of years before that. The main group are just near the Burrard Building and Royal Centre.
Appendix B to the report has the 1983 recommendations which provided for many cherry trees.

http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/cclerk/980514/PE2.HTM

[Canadian Mind]

Can't plant any Oak Trees eh?

[Metro-One]

Again those Maple trees are ugly, plant more cherry trees, they add so much color and life during are far to often grey spring, as i said before the last thing are streets need are eastern hardwoods that don't bud until May. this really is another stupid decision by council.

[jlousa]

Yes another stupid decision by council :rolleyes:
I'm sure staff didn't put any thought and research into it before they made their recommendations and ultimately their decisions. If only they read these forums instead of listening to their so called experts, then we'd have a Ferris wheel, and cherry trees. :rolleyes:

[Metro-One]

:previous: You really do believe that council can do no wrong don't you? This is a bone head decision and many times these so called "experts" end up being dead wrong. Let's just say i have never noticed a problem with the cherry trees out of the ordinary of any other species, but i have noticed how plain the Maples are compared to many other species they could choose. Why not try and use some native species or hybrid versions of native species? And please, for the love of god, drop the ferris wheel bit, have you ever heard of the 3 times rule for a joke? Once funny, second time gets a chuckle, third time it is done.

[jlousa]

City council can get things wrong, and they do all the time. I'm just sick of people that have absolutely no clue why and even how decisions are made criticizing those decisions. Just because you haven't seen anything wrong with the cherry trees doesn't mean their isn't. Officedweller explained why they are phasing them out.

And the Ferris wheel bit will always be funny to me. :tup:

Now, back on topic, rumours are starting to swirl that the streetcar project will see the other phases completed sooner rather then later. It sounds like it will be packaged as an olympic legacy post 2010. Guess we'll have to wait till then to see, not that we would've seen any construction before then anyways.

[Metro-One]

Well my father is a professional gardner so from what i have learned from him about cherry trees makes me feel council's decision on this one is a little overblown. For example my parents house has 50 year old cherry trees lining the front yard and they have never had a problem :tup:

And that still does not explain their actions of choosing a tree that is bald and ugly 75% of the year to replace the cherries.

As for the street car that sounds like good news. I would love to see this project fast tracked. I guarantee having it link skytrain and Granville island will bring in a lot more business to that area. (accessibility is currently Granville Islands largest weakness in my opinion)

[Canadian Mind]

Better than you two arguing about it, why not research the decision making process? Office Dweller did a damn good job explaining why they removed the Cherry Trees, but why choose Maple?

[Metro-One]

Cherry trees are susceptible to disease, but as i said they have overblown this and it really is not much of a problem. You just have to replace them every 40 to 60 years, not a big deal, and for all the color and beauty they add to the city it is a small price to pay. The only reason why they choose Norway Maples is because the are one of the easiest trees to maintain. That being said they are also one of the most boring trees to look at, and as i have also said before they bud very late in the spring and lose their leaves early in the fall, therefore they are bald for a much larger percentage of the year than cherry trees or any native species. Even their fall foliage is nothing special compared to that of other hardwood species. It all comes down to nickels and dimes.

[jlousa]

You should cut down those trees and count the rings. :tup:

susceptibility to pests and disease, the life span is limited from 15 to 25 years
http://www.arborday.org/trees/treeguide/treeDetail.cfm?id=149

My cherry tree lasted just under 15yrs maybe the noise from the city is killing them early. I'll send a letter to cityhall asking them to impose more noise restrictions. :tup:

[Metro-One]

Well as i have said, the cherry trees that we have are over 50 years old. Maybe you don't have much of a green thumb? 25 years is not bad, still much better than having boring maples that last forever. Think how much Vancouver's annual cherry blossom festival is going to suck without and cherry blossoms!

My cherry tree lasted just under 15yrs maybe the noise from the city is killing them early. I'll send a letter to cityhall asking them to impose more noise restrictions.

And the Ferris wheel bit will always be funny to me

If only they read these forums instead of listening to their so called experts, then we'd have a Ferris wheel, and cherry trees.

Also Jlousa you are one of the oldest on here and you are a moderator so can you please start to show some maturity? Also it is amazing how long a moderator has allowed this topic to be off track simply because he has a pet peeve with one of the forumers.

[Canadian Mind]

how the hell woudl noise kill a tree?

[Metro-One]

:previous: He is just trying to be cheeky.

[jlousa]

I don't have a problem with any particular forumer (well maybe one ex-forumer). If you feel you've been mistreated or that I've abused my powers as a moderator (don't see how as I haven't deleted any of your posts nor have I banned or suspended you, nor threatened to) please feel free to complain to the other moderators. All I have done is argued against your opinion that city council is ruining this city. Cheers.

[deasine]

:sly:

How about everyone just shut the hell up. Thank you.

Any problems or complaints with moderators or other members, please forward them to me instead of posting it in public. Otherwise, forever hold your silence.

:sly:

[dreambrother808]

Now, back on topic, rumours are starting to swirl that the streetcar project will see the other phases completed sooner rather then later. It sounds like it will be packaged as an olympic legacy post 2010. Guess we'll have to wait till then to see, not that we would've seen any construction before then anyways.

The city is going to fund all of it themselves?

[raggedy13]

Now, back on topic, rumours are starting to swirl that the streetcar project will see the other phases completed sooner rather then later. It sounds like it will be packaged as an olympic legacy post 2010. Guess we'll have to wait till then to see, not that we would've seen any construction before then anyways.

Sounds promising.

How about everyone just shut the hell up. Thank you.

Any problems or complaints with moderators or other members, please forward them to me instead of posting it in public.

Damn straight.

[CBeats]

Anyone else think they should have made the streetcar demonstration project actually go to the Olympic Village? Because really, Millennium Water is not that close to the Canada Line's "Olympic Village Station".
All it needs is a small extension, just 1 more stop - at the actual Olympic Village.

[zivan56]

^^ I thought it was a security issue?

[deasine]

^^ I thought it was a security issue?

Yes.

[CBeats]

How is it a security issue?

[Metro-One]

Thats what i was wondering, and even if it is a security issues they could still construct that portion of the line, just not operate that section during the games.

[deasine]

Thats what i was wondering, and even if it is a security issues they could still construct that portion of the line, just not operate that section during the games.

Well they already have the ROW. There's no point in constructing it if we don't even know if the streetcar will be permanent or temporary.

[CBeats]

You would think that, as a demonstration line built specifically for the Olympics, the streetcar would serve an Olympic development of some kind directly. So even if it's temporary, the line should go to the actual village. And how is it a security issue? Transit lines have been built to support other Olympics (e.g. China), so what makes our streetcar so different that it can't safely operate in a similar manner?

[deasine]

You would think that, as a demonstration line built specifically for the Olympics, the streetcar would serve an Olympic development of some kind directly. So even if it's temporary, the line should go to the actual village. And how is it a security issue? Transit lines have been built to support other Olympics (e.g. China), so what makes our streetcar so different that it can't safely operate in a similar manner?

No, transit lines have been near the village not directly inside the village, just like the Olympic Village station.

Just think about how it could be a potential security problem.

[CBeats]

Well if the streetcar is expanded beyond its initial area, it won't go directly into the Olympic Village - it will go on the ROW on W 1st near it. What in regard to safety is wrong with that?

[Locked In]

The entire Olympic Village and adjacent streets (including 1st Ave) will be behind a 24 hour security closure during the Games (and long before I assume...). Security will be incredibly tight, and access will be extremely limited; history has unfortunately provided good reason to believe this is wise. The organizers clearly have no interest in creating a public transportation corridor mere feet from athletes' residences.
As for the Streetcar, it will connect the Canada Line and Granville island, and that connection will serve many times more people than a stop near Olympic Village (during the Games) would. Anyways, here's the road closure map showing the restricted areas:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_tTCyS07dYVs/Sbkye2um6AI/AAAAAAAAAzc/2zQ_tIcXbqw/s400/OlympicTransportMap1_downtown.jpg

Source: Vancity Buzz Blog (http://vancitybuzz.blogspot.com/search/label/Events)

[van-island]

Interesting looking at the projected cost of building the line.

The minimum estimate is about $20 million a kilometre, up to around $26 million/km for the Pacific Boulevard extension, and $22.5 million/km for the overall line.

I have noticed a few examples in Europe where they are building (maybe just extending?) lines for $10 million/km, and even lower. (I think there was a city in Spain that got to just over $6 million/km, but I'm not sure about currency etc)

Is Vancouver's estimate pretty standard for what they're attempting, or are they high-balling the costs a bit?

Also interesting to note that these costs would likely be similar for an LRT system, as that is essentially what the streetcar will be on its separated ROW.

[DKaz]

Labour is more expensive here maybe. Also Europeans are experts at building streetcars whereas we're still in baby experimental stages.

[SFUVancouver]

Those per-kilometre cost estimates probably represent the total project cost divided by the proposed route length. In addition to track construction costs the budget would include the procurement of the LRVs, communication and switching equipment, and the "car barn" operations and maintence centre.

Once the system is up and running the cost of expanding it will be considerably lower.

[SpongeG]

parts of this city will be inaccessible during the games plus all the road closures

good times

gonna be a police state for a few weeks

[metroXpress]

After a long road trip visiting some cities of the west coast, I find Portland's Metropolitan Area Express (MAX)system a great success. Streetcars and LRTs are well integrated into their roads.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3592/3381928379_94cf035373_b.jpg

Pic taken by me....flickr account: Vancouver 2010

[DKaz]

Allen, actually that's their LRT. This is their streetcar:

Source: Portland Streetcar Wikipedia
Photographer: Cacophony
Source Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_Streetcar
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/PortlandStreetcar5.jpg/800px-PortlandStreetcar5.jpg

[metroXpress]

^ Oh...my....I was so excited to see the those "cars on street" that I couldn't tell which is which. Anyways, it was great to see it in person and both systems are great!! :tup: