Vancouver Downtown Streetcar | Proposed

[FarmerHaight]

Since it goes through Main and Hastings, I can see lots of junkies getting on it and using it as a rolling shelter.

What a dumb comment; is this supposed to be a joke? There are plenty of bus routes that go through the DTES. I have ridden the R5, and no "junkies" have ever hopped on, even when it is pouring rain and they'd have a reason to do so.

Routing transit so that it avoids run-down neighborhoods is the best way to accelerate the decline. Chinatown is also a tourist attraction, so it makes sense to connect it with Granville, Science World, Stanley Park, and the other destinations on this route.

[scottN]

anybody trying to go from the Canada and Expo (or vice versa) is going to pick the streetcar, and that makes it useful to anybody between NEFC and Leg-in-Boot.

On the contrary I think that most people will choose to use the Millenium Line extension to transfer between the Expo Line at Commercial Drive and the Canada Line at Cambie & Broadway, as that service will be faster and more frequent.

The proposed streetcar runs parallel to broadway across the south side of false creek, and the faster subway line will be just 3 blocks up the hill, so for anything other than a short hop, walking up the hill to catch the much faster subway is preferred. The streetcar is only likely to pick up local traffic from north of 6th avenue for short trips to connect to the canada line or expo line, or for trips heading into or out of the downtown eastside.

Perhaps the streetcar would make sense if we saw a major densification of false creek south.

[Migrant_Coconut]

The proposed streetcar runs parallel to broadway across the south side of false creek, and the faster subway line will be just 3 blocks up the hill, so for anything other than a short hop, walking up the hill to catch the much faster subway is preferred. The streetcar is only likely to pick up local traffic from north of 6th avenue for short trips to connect to the canada line or expo line, or for trips heading into or out of the downtown eastside.

True, but north of 6th isn't just False Creek South; it's also OV, NEFC, industrial Mount Pleasant and the False Creek Flats. OV alone would see a pretty big uptake in transit usage.

[Vin]

On the contrary I think that most people will choose to use the Millenium Line extension to transfer between the Expo Line at Commercial Drive and the Canada Line at Cambie & Broadway, as that service will be faster and more frequent.

The proposed streetcar runs parallel to broadway across the south side of false creek, and the faster subway line will be just 3 blocks up the hill, so for anything other than a short hop, walking up the hill to catch the much faster subway is preferred. The streetcar is only likely to pick up local traffic from north of 6th avenue for short trips to connect to the canada line or expo line, or for trips heading into or out of the downtown eastside.

Perhaps the streetcar would make sense if we saw a major densification of false creek south.

Totally. They should have proposed the massive densification of the Fairview slopes before doing more studies on the streetcar plan. Basically I only see three destinations worth serving along the line on this side of False Creek:
1. Senakw Development (not City of Vancouver's - First Nations development)
2. Granville Island (not City of Vancouver's - Federal land)
3. Olympic Village: Really bad planning in which residents could be better served if the streetcar were to run along a route lined with retail and other services. The residents living along 1st Avenue and Quebec Street could be potential NIMBYs. These streets should have been heavy retail streets in the first place.


Another great route is from Science World to Drake (Although it could be better if the streetcar can go all the way to English Bay). Not only does this route possess the highest population densities anywhere in the Lower Mainland, it would help link up a few commercial districts, ie. Stadium/Entertainment District, Yaletown centre, Vancouver House, and English Bay (if the line can go all the way there), as well as linking up two skytrain lines (Expo & Canada Line). The current Translink shuttle bus service is simply inadequate. During peak times, these buses get full very often. Many at the Expo line bus stop experience full buses not picking up additional passengers, and I think that discourage many people from using it.

[Migrant_Coconut]

If a six-lane arterial is carmageddon, then five lanes plus sharing one with a streetcar will be even more so. Upgrade the 23 to a regular bus line and be done with it.

[cganuelas1995]

If a six-lane arterial is carmageddon, then five lanes plus sharing one with a streetcar will be even more so. Upgrade the 23 to a regular bus line and be done with it.

And if they need permanence because they lack object permanence, make it a trolleybus.

The route looks like something that would be better suited for a tourist company doing a trolley replica bus.

[mukmuk64]

Biggest thing I'm surprised that hasn't been mentioned is that a major point of this project is to build part of the network that justifies the further extension along the Arbutus greenway, connecting Kerrisdale to Vancouver.

That's the thing that transforms this from a improvement over what we have now, a tourist friendly Bus++, to something that brings some real substantial value in being transformational to entire neighbourhoods in Kerrisdale and the west side of Vancouver.

Streetcar like this makes the most sense when you're leveraging right of ways that aren't part of the road network and using it to pedestrianize spaces. This is why the opportunity for the Arbutus Greenway and the old line in South False Creek is exciting. With that in mind a flaw of this report is that the author isn't taking nearly enough of these opportunities. More of these streets being used should be closed to cars entirely and pedestrianized.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Ideology aside, the CP corridor is pretty much the only place where Vancouver can build a streetcar for cheap. Ripping up the road is expensive enough, but most of our existing arteries have water/sewer/electric/telecoms infrastructure underneath them; that and adding a streetcar is going to turn $1.1 billion into $2 billion... when we could just spend ~$300 mil upgrading existing FTN routes with bus bulbs and having battery artics running every five minutes.

[Sheba]

Ideology aside, the CP corridor is pretty much the only place where Vancouver can build a streetcar for cheap. Ripping up the road is expensive enough, but most of our existing arteries have water/sewer/electric/telecoms infrastructure underneath them; that and adding a streetcar is going to turn $1.1 billion into $2 billion... when we could just spend ~$300 mil upgrading existing FTN routes with bus bulbs and having battery artics running every five minutes.

:worship:
I think most areas outside of CoV would be happy with busses running every 15 - 20 mins - no wonder so many people drive...

[aberdeen5698]

... when we could just spend ~$300 mil upgrading existing FTN routes with bus bulbs and having battery artics running every five minutes.
If we're talking about Vancouver proper then most of the FTN routes are already electrified. Not sure what's going to follow after this generation of trolleys wears out, but my gut tells me that a new generation of trolleys would be cheaper than battery buses since all the overhead is already in place. And bumping up service on the Arbutus trolley route is a hel*uva lot cheaper than buying streetcars for the greenway.

[Migrant_Coconut]

If we're talking about Vancouver proper then most of the FTN routes are already electrified. Not sure what's going to follow after this generation of trolleys wears out, but my gut tells me that a new generation of trolleys would be cheaper than battery buses since all the overhead is already in place.

Hence battery artics, which assumes a capacity upgrade is required and that trolley artics are probably a bad idea.

And bumping up service on the Arbutus trolley route is a hel*uva lot cheaper than buying streetcars for the greenway.

The problem is that the tram costs more than the bus for only marginally better results. If the tram and the bus cost the exact same (like on Arbutus), why not get the tram?

[aberdeen5698]

Hence battery artics, which assumes a capacity upgrade is required and that trolley artics are probably a bad idea.
Why are trolley artics a bad idea? The 70 that we already have seem to be working just fine...

The problem is that the tram costs more than the bus for only marginally better results. If the tram and the bus cost the exact same (like on Arbutus), why not get the tram?
Sorry, you've lost me. Your first and second sentences here seem to be arguing opposite sides...?

[casper]

:worship:
I think most areas outside of CoV would be happy with busses running every 15 - 20 mins - no wonder so many people drive...

A street car feels more substantial. It offers a sense of stability that simply can not be achieved with a bus.

Yes, a bus will accomplish the same thing as a mode of transpiration. It will get people to where they need to go.

But will it add to property value the same way as a street car? Will it act as a catalyst for developers to build taller? I think not.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Why are trolley artics a bad idea? The 70 that we already have seem to be working just fine...


Sorry, you've lost me. Your first and second sentences here seem to be arguing opposite sides...?

Do we? Don't think I've seen them. My experience with caternaries is that they just get in the way - how fast are ours going?

Clarification: in the blue moon cases where the streetcar's expenses can be brought down and its strengths utilized, then you've got a net positive cost/benefit over a RapidBus. I would most definitely not advocate the same on Commercial or Davie.

A street car feels more substantial. It offers a sense of stability that simply can not be achieved with a bus.

Yes, a bus will accomplish the same thing as a mode of transpiration. It will get people to where they need to go.

But will it add to property value the same way as a street car? Will it act as a catalyst for developers to build taller? I think not.

It can be easily argued that the 99 spurred development on Broadway, and the RapidBuses on 41st and in the North Shore. But regardless of tech, the new residents are ultimately going to care more about mobility than the perception of mobility.

[aberdeen5698]

Why are trolley artics a bad idea? The 70 that we already have seem to be working just fine...

Do we? Don't think I've seen them. My experience with caternaries is that they just get in the way - how fast are ours going?
One of our articulated trolleys. They go just as fast as the others...

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e9/9e/23/e99e2329b32beec6f827629d1bbbb38a.jpg
(photo from pinterest post by Rob Scarrow (https://www.pinterest.ca/pin/449234131552464480/))

[casper]

One of our articulated trolleys. They go just as fast as the others...

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e9/9e/23/e99e2329b32beec6f827629d1bbbb38a.jpg
(photo from pinterest post by Rob Scarrow (https://www.pinterest.ca/pin/449234131552464480/))

But they have rubber wheels and lack the "train" look you expect with a proper street car.

[scottN]

A street car feels more substantial. It offers a sense of stability that simply can not be achieved with a bus.

Yes, a bus will accomplish the same thing as a mode of transpiration. It will get people to where they need to go.

But will it add to property value the same way as a street car? Will it act as a catalyst for developers to build taller? I think not.

Developers don't need a catalyst to build denser in the city of Vancouver. What's really holding them back are zoning limits and a long, expensive and uncertain permitting process. A streetcar doesn't fix any of that on its own.

[cganuelas1995]

But they have rubber wheels and lack the "train" look you expect with a proper street car.

Then we could do a guided trolleybus if people who lack object permanence need the permanence.

[FarmerHaight]

Then we could do a guided trolleybus if people who lack object permanence need the permanence.

Perhaps this is what you mean by permanence, but I imagine potential developers have a lot more confidence in the sustained level of service of a train compared to a bus. A bus route can be cancelled, re-aligned, or frequency can be reduced. A streetcar route is there to stay, and its hard to imagine frequency being reduced since the cars could not be used elsewhere.

I understand Migrant_Coconut's stance that this project is not justified from a cost-benefit stance, but I think people would perceive a streetcar to be more reliable and efficient, even if performance is largely the same as a trolleybus. Once it is operational and the segregated-running sections show their merit, maybe there would be enough support to create some transit-only streets downtown, making the entire route more useful.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Don't get me wrong, presentation and "permanence" shouldn't be dismissed entirely. It's just that since we only have so much blood in the turnip, maybe we should be doing projects that are better before projects that look better.
Let's use the 3 down Main for example - pre-lockdown, it already had almost 21k (https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/translink/viz/2019TSPR-BusSeaBusSummaries/TheWorkbook) riders every day. Sure, we could upgrade it to a streetcar, but at $120/km or more (half the UBC estimate (https://sfb.nathanpachal.com/2019/01/some-facts-about-ubc-skytrain.html)), that's $1.2 bil... for how many new riders? Whether the street is open or closed to traffic, it's not faster or more frequent than the 3 - it's just fancier and slightly bigger.

Sure, there may be people who won't take a bus, but will take a shiny new tram, yet that type of passenger is just as likely to take a cab... or a stretch limo. I doubt it's a good idea to spend half a SkyTrain on attracting intermittent ridership; not when we can spend it somewhere else and grow the baseload.

Re: this project, I've said before that Phase 0 (Arbutus-Science World) is reasonable because the potential ridership increase is high, and it can be done for a song; any further downtown, we might as well wait and build a tunnel.

One of our articulated trolleys. They go just as fast as the others...

I stand corrected.

[GenWhy?]

The whole streetcar route presented could be in a full dedicated ROW if a few traffic lanes are removed. This appears to have been a conservative route design. Aside from the Pacific Boulevard leg, like 80% of this thing is in its own ROW. Developers would love this along Arbutus.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Closing off part of Cordova (or worse, having the buses and everybody else share with the train) is maybe not the best idea - especially if we ever need it to run every 5 minutes or less instead of 8.

[cganuelas1995]

any further downtown, we might as well wait and build a tunnel.


If we're gonna start tunnelling, might as well just go with skytrain at that point.

[jollyburger]

With the South False Creek planning it doesn't seem that promising for a streetcar :)

[Migrant_Coconut]

If we're gonna start tunnelling, might as well just go with skytrain at that point.

Because of 15% of the route (counting the Greenway)? You know I like grade separation too, but that doesn't sound like good tradeoff.

With the South False Creek planning it doesn't seem that promising for a streetcar :)

(sigh) Yeah, looks like it. Maybe in another twenty years...

[logicbomb]

Because of 15% of the route (counting the Greenway)? You know I like grade separation too, but that doesn't sound like good tradeoff.



(sigh) Yeah, looks like it. Maybe in another twenty years...

Based on what I see in the renderings, the ROW along False Creek pretty much gets built over.

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=9422089#post9422089

[jollyburger]

Based on what I see in the renderings, the ROW along False Creek pretty much gets built over.

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?p=9422089#post9422089

DailyHive says they moved the alignment to the north side of West 6th.

[Migrant_Coconut]

So then we can't even do Phase 0. Wonderful.

[logicbomb]

So then we can't even do Phase 0. Wonderful.

Phase 0, and the entire streetcar network wasn't ever really in the cards. Plans were just conjured up by City Hall to justify the expense of purchasing the Arbutus ROW. There's just no political will to fund a network that's been made redundant by cleaner battery powered buses and the new Broadway Skytrain. The ROW is also taking up a rather large footprint on land that could be developed.

[GenWhy?]

525 West 2nd Ave is a large parcel.

[Changing City]

Phase 0, and the entire streetcar network wasn't ever really in the cards. Plans were just conjured up by City Hall to justify the expense of purchasing the Arbutus ROW. There's just no political will to fund a network that's been made redundant by cleaner battery powered buses and the new Broadway Skytrain. The ROW is also taking up a rather large footprint on land that could be developed.

Not true. The Arbutus Greenway was identified 25 years ago as a possible route for transit to Richmond - but Cambie was selected instead. There was then an exercise in 2000 to reserve it for a greenway and future transportation use, and that led to the legal dispute with CP and the subsequent purchase agreement with the city. In 1995 there was no clear indication of whether, or when CP might abandon the use of the line.

The Downtown streetcar was a separate exercise in the mid 1990s to develop a Downtown network, building off the track right of way in False Creek South acquired by the City. The purchase of the 1.5 km False Creek South rail corridor occurred after BC Transit commissioned a study in 1991 for a streetcar system from Granville Island to Science World, and City of Vancouver commissioned a complementary study in 1994.

The idea that the Arbutus Greenway route could be linked to the Downtown route came years after the possible Downtown streetcar network had been identified.

[MIPS]

Looks like the streetcar parked in the shed down on 6th ave is going up for sale. GovAuction listing A240197 - Ends August 29th. Can't really post a link because the site is a coding disaster.

Electric Streetcar is untested
Unit is not in working condition
Interior of streetcar has damage and missing pieces
Serial/specification plate not present
Wheels appear to be seized
Unit may need to be wrapped
Parts are missing
Pieces may need to be dismantled prior to removal

Additional time may be provided to the winning bidder to prepare the unit for transport

Surface damage present: scratches, markings, rust, dents, stains, dust and dirt

Item may be incomplete/missing pieces

Dimensions: 48.36 feet long x 11.78 feet wide x 12.11 feet high
Weight: 42,000 lbs (approximate)

Measurements are approximate

Additional pictures available in a PDF file in the Attachments Exist section

Viewing highly recommended

Viewing is by APPOINTMENT ONLY on August 24th between 11:00AM - 1:00PM

For further information or for a viewing appointment, please contact the listing agent
Trevor Liu at (778) 572-3883 or email at trevor.liu@gov.bc.ca


From the photos it's not in great shape. They got the inter taped off for asbestos and it's been tagged with graffitti so there's no promises all the components are still there.

[jollyburger]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZQKEi1UEAAgUkD?format=png

https://twitter.com/NathanDavidowi1/status/1554878867487109121/photo/1

[Diegotheartist1]

maybe they're preparing to dismantle the shed and do some sort of complete overhaul of the corridor or something?

[MIPS]

Calling it now - Dedicate bike route.

[officedweller]

BC is auctioning off a vintage Vancouver streetcar and it could cost a little over $100
Brendan Kergin / Vancouver is Awesome
- Aug 4, 2022 / 12:51 pm | S

https://www.castanet.net/content/2022/8/glacier_4875_p.jpg

A streetcar being stored in a shed at Vancouver's Leg in Boot square is up for auction by the provincial government.

However, while it's been in the city for years, it's never seen use on Vancouver rails.

The streetcar was donated to the Transit Museum Society by the Belgian government around 2000, according to Matthew Laird, who's been involved with the society for years.

The idea was for the streetcar, which could be operated by a single person and have a wheelchair ramp installed, to run on the Downtown Historic Railway between Granville Island and Olympic Village Station (under the Cambie Street Bridge). That line (which still physically exists) was in use for a decade, until after the 2010 Olympics.

However, Laird notes the Belgian streetcar up for auction never ran, other than when his father, Dale, moved it a few feet back and forth. With no current plans for the historic railway to be used, it is unlikely ever to carry passengers in Vancouver.

The streetcar was to be renovated, but that only partially happened, with UBC students building a new controller, Laird says on Twitter. The interior was never restored.

Now it sits in a shed next to the unused rail line at Leg in Boot square.

But not for long. The streetcar was just listed on the province's auction website. The online auction will run until Aug. 29.

The auction notes the electric streetcar is "untested," "not in working condition," damaged, missing pieces, and may need to be dismantled to move. One thing it does have, though, is asbestos.

Currently, the top bid is $100.

However, before leaping to make a bid, know this.

"It is the responsibility of the winning bidder to make all shipping and removal arrangements," the government says on the auction site. "All disassembly, removal and shipping of this auction item are the sole responsibility and at the expense of the high bidder.

"The winning bidder is solely responsible for any and all damage to the unit and the premise that may occur in the disassembly and removal of this unit."

Laird notes that as a street car, its wheels may not line up with other railways.

"They're smaller on a streetcar. It wouldn't be able to handle the tolerances on a freight railway without falling between the tracks at switches," he notes on Twitter.

Also, the winner will have to get it out of the shed five days after the auction ends, which may bring new meaning to 'Labour Day' for the winner's friends.

https://www.castanet.net/news/BC/378736/BC-is-auctioning-off-an-old-streetcar-in-Vancouver-and-it-could-go-for-just-over-100

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZSn0b_UIAAo9S6?format=jpg&name=medium
Okay...this is car 4 from Brussels, a former work car converted
back to have windows, it was donated by the Belgian govt to to Transit
Museum Society. I was at the meeting with the Belgian Consul at Five Sails
where the arrangement was made over drinks around 2000.
https://twitter.com/matthewlaird/status/1555059514335907841

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZSpknVUIAAXHYB?format=jpg&name=medium
Sadly I can't find a photo of it as it arrived, painted yellow
with solid sides (no windows). Window holes were cut, those are former
Vancouver Flyer E800 trolley bus windows installed. The control handle for
the original controller is sitting in my shed.
https://twitter.com/matthewlaird/status/1555059514335907841