Ten largest cities in Canada, 1901-2001 [Archive] - Page 3

vid

Jan 24, 2007, 9:55 PM

Had Winnipeg not been as influential as it was, Thunder Bay would have anywhere from 450,000 to 750,000 people, and Winnipeg would probably be 50-75% French. The Lakehead would have been one of the largest ports in the world. If they didn't have that drive to get immigrants to settle west, Thunder Bay probably would have had about 250,000 to 300,000 people by now. Pretty impressive, I guess. :P

Thus proving that city planners are NOT psychic.

If Toronto also had a large French community, Canad would probably be much more bilingual, and Quebec separatism likely wouldn't be as big an issue as it is today. Alberta and British Columbia however would probably feel more alienated, as they would likely have large English majorities regardless of the path the country took through the first 75 years of Confederation.

I don't know if anyone remembers the disaster of a thread I made based on an article by a local economist, but in 1892, it was predicted that Canada's largest cities would include Halifax, Sherbrooke, Toronto, Port Arthur, Winnipeg, and New Westminster.

habsfan

Jan 24, 2007, 9:58 PM

If Toronto also had a large French community, Canad would probably be much more bilingual, and Quebec separatism likely wouldn't be as big an issue as it is today. Alberta and British Columbia however would probably feel more alienated, as they would likely have large English majorities regardless of the path the country took through the first 75 years of Confederation.

You might be onto something there!

m0nkyman

Jan 24, 2007, 10:31 PM

If Toronto also had a large French community, Canada would probably be much more bilingual, and Quebec separatism likely wouldn't be as big an issue as it is today. Alberta and British Columbia however would probably feel more alienated, as they would likely have large English majorities regardless of the path the country took through the first 75 years of Confederation.

I don't know if anyone remembers the disaster of a thread I made based on an article by a local economist, but in 1892, it was predicted that Canada's largest cities would include Halifax, Sherbrooke, Toronto, Port Arthur, Winnipeg, and New Westminster.

If England had less of an influence on North America which follows from them not dominating Upper Canada, it is quite likely that the entire West Coast would have ended up Spanish...

fflint

Jan 24, 2007, 10:44 PM

^Not really, though. The Russians challenged and held the Spaniards from expanding north of San Francisco Bay. Also, the Spanish and later Mexican governments had a very hard time administering to such far-flung, sparsely populated outposts. The Spaniards went as far north as they could possibly have managed and given they left hundreds of miles of California's coast untouched and unexplored, it seems very unlikely they could have taken British Columbia.

raggedy13

Jan 24, 2007, 10:57 PM

Well the Spanish did explore BC's coast and land at present day Vancouver. Here's an excerpt from Wikipedia... "The coastline of present day Point Grey was first explored in 1791 by José María Narváez of Spain, followed by George Vancouver, who also explored the inner harbour of Burrard Inlet in 1792 and gave various places British names"

Of course there are still many places with Spanish names, most significantly the Gulf Islands.

Here's another bit of info I found on Tourism Vancouver's website...

1592 - 1774 AD: The Spaniards cruised by as part of their exploration of Canada's west coast. Spain claimed the west coast of North America by virtue of the Treaty of Tordesillas, which occurred in 1494. Their presence is still felt today even though the Spanish felt Friendly Cove at the entrance to Nootka Sound was a better place for a town. The City of Vancouver has a number of streets named after Spaniards: Cordova, Cardero, Valdez and Narvaez (Galiano Street in Coquitlam.)

1792: Captain George Vancouver arrived. He spent one day here, which was long enough to discover the Spanish had already claimed the place and headed off again. During the day British Captain Vancouver met with Spanish captains Valdez and Galiano and one of Vancouver's best beaches, Spanish Banks is named for the meeting place. That's also the same reason English Bay got its name. Note however, that the Bay is bigger than the Banks and there are a ton more streets in Vancouver named after the British. (There is a Vancouver Street but it's, um, in New Westminster.)

Andy6

Jan 24, 2007, 11:53 PM

40 years ago, it would had been unthinkable for a french canadian to own or even run a financial institution.
Basically, the wealth controlled by anglophones move to Toronto, and it allowed french canadians to create their own.

It was unthinkable because French Canadian culture was dominated by a religious worldview that encouraged intelligent French Canadians to become priests, lawyers, politicians and civil servants and frowned on the idea of "entrepreneurship", i.e. money-making. There was nothing that could have prevented an enterprising French-Canadian from founding a bank (and there were a few). It occurs to me that you could also say that there were relatively few English-Canadians (as in Englishmen) in banking; banking was overwhelmingly a Scottish-Canadian business, the reasons for which were cultural.

Xelebes

Jan 25, 2007, 1:13 AM

If England had less of an influence on North America which follows from them not dominating Upper Canada, it is quite likely that the entire West Coast would have ended up Spanish...

Or Russian.

habsfan

Jan 25, 2007, 1:45 AM

It was unthinkable because French Canadian culture was dominated by a religious worldview that encouraged intelligent French Canadians to become priests, lawyers, politicians and civil servants and frowned on the idea of "entrepreneurship", i.e. money-making. There was nothing that could have prevented an enterprising French-Canadian from founding a bank (and there were a few). It occurs to me that you could also say that there were relatively few English-Canadians (as in Englishmen) in banking; banking was overwhelmingly a Scottish-Canadian business, the reasons for which were cultural.that was part of it, but it WAS harder for French speaking Quebecker to go into business because of the language issues!

graupner

Jan 25, 2007, 1:54 AM

salvius

Jan 25, 2007, 2:23 AM

that was part of it, but it WAS harder for French speaking Quebecker to go into business because of the language issues!

Of course it was; an Anglophone unilingual English speaker earned more than a bilingual one... To say it was just 'cultural' is nonsense. The Quiet Revolution didn't happen for nothing. And the business still biases towards English, most definetely. It is the language of business, and not knowing it puts you at a DEFINITE disadvantage as compared to an English speaker not knowing French...

SHOFEAR

Jan 25, 2007, 3:32 AM

Greco Roman

Jan 25, 2007, 3:35 AM

d/dx le cos(x) = - le sin(x)

Yeah. No matter what language, Calculus is still garbage :hell:

Greco Roman

Jan 25, 2007, 3:38 AM

Even today things are harder for french canadians, All my SOA math exams are in english, we asked if it could be possible to do ( at our own expense) french translations, and they obviously refused. I'd like to see you pass a math exam in french !!!

In Manitoba, there are two grade 12 provincial math exams in both languages. As an immersion student, I did mine in french, and it wasn't that bad considering my math skills in the first place. :haha:

SHOFEAR

Jan 25, 2007, 3:39 AM

Calculus is one of those things that the further you go into it, the more you appreciate how amazing it is. I love it, meanwhile diff Eq's and linear algebra lick balls.

vid

Jan 25, 2007, 4:09 AM

Math is the same in any language. It's math. :P

Now, if you had to take a literature exam in a language you didn't speak, THAT would be hard.

MolsonExport

Jan 25, 2007, 2:22 PM

What if both Toronto and Montreal were french speaking?? Ahahaha...

Speaking of how the events of the 70s influenced negatively our growth, I agree, but for francophones, it meant nothing but progress.
Finally, we could speak our language at work, finally we could be presidents of our company, and make french the official language (french WAS an official language, but english was much more widespread than it is today).
So globally, I think these events were very positive for the french people in Canada. Screw SunLife and all the banks if they don't want to operate in french!!!!
We have the National Bank (Banque Nationale) , Desjardins, La Capitale, Industrielle Alliance, Power Corporation, Great West, London Life, Canada Life, IGM, Mackenzie,Gesca and several others, which are now owned or controlled by francophones. 40 years ago, it would had been unthinkable for a french canadian to own or even run a financial institution.
Basically, the wealth controlled by anglophones move to Toronto, and it allowed french canadians to create their own.

there is a lot of truth in what you are saying. Some anglos and corporations could not, would not make the change, which is sad. One positive result of the exodus (which overall was lamentable) was that it allowed French-Canadians "to create their own".

graupner

Jan 25, 2007, 4:24 PM

Math is the same in any language. It's math. :P

Now, if you had to take a literature exam in a language you didn't speak, THAT would be hard.

Here`s a sample , a very easy question, but that gets harder if you don t read it in your language:

John Smith borrows 1000$ at an effective quaterly rate of 12%. After two years, seeing he hasn`t made a payment yet, his bank decides to change his effective rate from 12% quaterly to 11% monthly. Calculate the ammount of money John will have to pay as a penalty due to his new interest rate during the 3rd year.

Here, try to do the question in french:

John Smith emprunte 1000$ a un taux trimestriel effectif de 12%. Apres deux annees, constatant quìl n a effectue aucun paiement de sa dette, son institution financiere decide de changer son taux de 12% trimestriel a un taux de 11% mensuel. Calculer le montant d argent paye en penalites dues a son nouveau taux d interet pendant la 3eme annee.

See what I mean, that is the kind of problem that is fairly easy to understand in your language, but in the other language, things get a bit more complicated since there is place for interpretation. Of course, no one cares about that. That s what I mean by even today, anglophones have a slight advantage on francophones.

malek

Jan 25, 2007, 4:59 PM

maths are useless without a language to put them in context, so of course the language used to set is important to the person trying to understand.

West_aust

Jan 25, 2007, 5:20 PM

but at the same things, there is some more technical terms that are only in english that can't be translated into french

for example, in finance, there are futures contract and forward contract, both are different, but in french, they both translate as "contrat a terme" thus making no difference.

From that standpoint, I understand that they keep some professionnal exams in english only, especially those that are administered on and international basis. If chinese people can do it and pass it, while english is not their first language, same goes for mexicans dutch and french speaking person.

feepa

Jan 25, 2007, 5:37 PM

Alberta and British Columbia however would probably feel more alienated, as they would likely have large English majorities regardless of the path the country took through the first 75 years of Confederation.

I think most people tend to forget that Alberta has a major French origins as well. Just look at some of the names of the communities, towns and cities in Central Alberta.
St Albert, Lacombe, Lac La Biche, St. Paul, Morinville, Beaumont, Bon Accord, and a favorite of mine "Trochu"

I'm sure I'm missing some. Even Edmonton has a distinct district that is primarily French.

Greco Roman

Jan 25, 2007, 7:41 PM

maths are useless without a language to put them in context, so of course the language used to set is important to the person trying to understand.

In my view, math (mostly calculus) is it's own language; by far the most difficult for me to understand. :)

Taller Better

Jan 25, 2007, 7:51 PM

Especially under the pressure of an exam, the last thing you need is to have to figure out things in a different language. Makes the test much more difficult.

graupner

Jan 25, 2007, 9:13 PM

Especially under the pressure of an exam, the last thing you need is to have to figure out things in a different language. Makes the test much more difficult.

Exactly, when you have an average of 5 minutes to answer each question, each second is precious. Let's say I spend an additionnal 15 seconds understanding the question, and I have 50 questions to do, some random english guy with equivalent math skills as mine will do better since he will finish before me .
( and the time you take to finish your exam influences you grade... )

vid

Jan 26, 2007, 2:41 PM

I think most people tend to forget that Alberta has a major French origins as well. Just look at some of the names of the communities, towns and cities in Central Alberta.
St Albert, Lacombe, Lac La Biche, St. Paul, Morinville, Beaumont, Bon Accord, and a favorite of mine "Trochu"

I'm sure I'm missing some. Even Edmonton has a distinct district that is primarily French.

Well good for you! My region (The entire lake, really) was discovered, mapped, named after and founded by the French, primarily Daniel Greysolon Sieur du Lhut, after whom is named the city of Duluth (Duluth, Georgia is named after Duluth, Minnesota, because Georginians are very inventive. :rolleyes:) They also founded Fort Caministiquia (Thunder Bay.) French-named communities here include Paipoonge, Grand Marais, Lutson, Shuniah, Sioux Lookout, Baudette, Marquette, and those are just the big ones I can think of off the top of my head. We were actually part of New France! It's amazing how many places have French people!

Ironic that according to some people, if the French were MORE influential, Alberta would be more at home!

See, in an alternate history, imagine if Ontario was more French than it is now, perhaps French people wouldn't have settled in Alberta? And your beloved Trochu (Nowhere near as wonderful as Paipoonge) would probably just be another Springfield on the map.

See what I mean, that is the kind of problem that is fairly easy to understand in your language, but in the other language, things get a bit more complicated since there is place for interpretation. Of course, no one cares about that. That s what I mean by even today, anglophones have a slight advantage on francophones.

If that's the case, why wasn't the test offered in French? Have you talked to the school board?

shreddog

Jan 26, 2007, 8:19 PM

Well good for you! My region (The entire lake, really) was discovered, mapped, named after and founded by the French, primarily Daniel Greysolon Sieur du Lhut
Vid, not to correct, but to add emphasis.

It was actually Etienne Brule who first explored Lake Superior and made it was far west as Isle Royale, though there are some who believe he over-wintered in the Jarvis bay area. After him, the two who really explored the area in details were Groseilliers and Radisson. Then came Sieur du Lhut.

Hell, with that much French influence, it should be called Baie du Tonnerre!

kool maudit

Jan 27, 2007, 1:00 AM

the reasons for which were cultural.

are these also the reasons for the constant and subtle disdain for montreal and quebec on the part of the anglo-canadian right?

the jacobins have established a beachhead! compare their centre to minor outposts! imply a generalized corruption that does not exist elsewhere!

Greco Roman

Jan 27, 2007, 1:09 AM

are these also the reasons for the constant and subtle disdain for montreal and quebec on the part of the anglo-canadian right?

Please don't assume all anglos have a distain for your province or culture! I sure don't.

Quand je suis finis avec mes etudes, je voudrais visiter "la belle province" et decouvrir pour moi-meme la culture unique qui n'est pas present ailleurs au Canada; ainsi ca me donnera la chance a pratiquer mon francais :cheers:

m0nkyman

Jan 27, 2007, 1:28 AM

are these also the reasons for the constant and subtle disdain for montreal and quebec on the part of the anglo-canadian right?

There's a disdain for Montréal, but it's the same disdain that exists for Toronto. You'd be surprised at how much more comfortable a good old boy from Alberta would be hanging with someone from Victoriaville than either would be with yer typical Montrealer. :tup:

Now, the anglo-canadian elite, which would be the backbone of the Liberals are a different story. They have no respect for Québec, which would explain their willingness to be as corrupt as possible in Québec.

Mister F

Jan 27, 2007, 2:01 AM

Now, the anglo-canadian elite, which would be the backbone of the Liberals are a different story. They have no respect for Québec, which would explain their willingness to be as corrupt as possible in Québec.
Going by your location, I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic.

m0nkyman

Jan 27, 2007, 2:12 AM

Going by your location, I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic.
Likewise, I'm sure.

someone123

Jan 27, 2007, 2:51 AM

I find it odd how little attention Montreal gets from the national media. An observer without any prior knowledge of Canada would probably assume that Vancouver is the country's second city. Quebec has become very foreign and mysterious to most Canadians.

It's kind of hard for me to understand since I've always spoken French and about half of my family is from there. People who don't speak both languages miss out on the many similarities between Quebec and other parts of the country. When I go there it seems to fit fairly naturally between the Maritimes and Ontario, and the changes as you go from Halifax to Toronto are quite gradual.

kool maudit

Jan 27, 2007, 2:56 AM

Please don't assume all anglos have a distain for your province or culture! I sure don't.

i'm actually an anglo-canadian (u.k. citizen, even) born in ontario. i've lived in montreal since 1996.

malek

Jan 27, 2007, 3:24 AM

I find it odd how little attention Montreal gets from the national media. An observer without any prior knowledge of Canada would probably assume that Vancouver is the country's second city. Quebec has become very foreign and mysterious to most Canadians.

its a very slow process of rejecting a "foreign" body, Canadians are getting used more and more to the idea of Quebec being out of Canada.

When I open Mcleans for example, the only stories where Quebec is cited are about some constitutional or political crap. If we're lucky, we'll get the last page which somehow portrays Quebecois as different in a bad way.

Andy6

Jan 27, 2007, 3:51 AM

are these also the reasons for the constant and subtle disdain for montreal and quebec on the part of the anglo-canadian right?

the jacobins have established a beachhead! compare their centre to minor outposts! imply a generalized corruption that does not exist elsewhere!

hmm, wasn't sure if those arrows had hit the target but this suggests I got the sweet spot. jolly well done andy.

if you must know we disdain everything and everywhere equally.

Taller Better

Jan 27, 2007, 6:22 AM

its a very slow process of rejecting a "foreign" body, Canadians are getting used more and more to the idea of Quebec being out of Canada.

When I open Mcleans for example, the only stories where Quebec is cited are about some constitutional or political crap. If we're lucky, we'll get the last page which somehow portrays Quebecois as different in a bad way.

You read McLeans???!!! Isn't it owned by CanWest or something? With opinion pieces by Conrad Black's wife?
It hasn't been worth reading in about 25 years.... :omg:

malek

Jan 27, 2007, 8:40 AM

You read McLeans???!!! Isn't it owned by CanWest or something? With opinion pieces by Conrad Black's wife?
It hasn't been worth reading in about 25 years.... :omg:

i don't read it, i don't have time for boring stuff.

We get it at my old job and I was flipping it for the last three and half years and reading what seemed interesting, not much honestly.

eemy

Jan 27, 2007, 1:02 PM

When I open Mcleans for example, the only stories where Quebec is cited are about some constitutional or political crap. If we're lucky, we'll get the last page which somehow portrays Quebecois as different in a bad way.

:yuck: Mcleans is awful. I really miss a serious new magazine that Mcleans just can't seem to be.

Speaking from a university environment, Montreal and the rest of Quebec are two very different beasts. Montreal is a favoured destination, but it pretty much ends there, unfortunately. It's a shame though, Quebec has an awful lot to see.

Mister F

Jan 27, 2007, 2:36 PM

Likewise, I'm sure.
lol...I'm thinking maybe you missed my point.

Now, the anglo-canadian elite, which would be the backbone of the Liberals are a different story. They have no respect for Québec, which would explain their willingness to be as corrupt as possible in Québec.

Location: If you think I've said something dumb, I'm being sarcastic.