Ten largest cities in Canada, 1901-2001

[PhilippeMtl]

I would think that Bombarier has recieved more in federal government money and subsidies than some provinces.

Sources?

[MolsonExport]

Another thread that became a shit-slugging fest.

[Taller Better]

Sources?



You could not find a human being who could truthfully calculate the actual amount of Federal money that has been funnelled into Bombardier from the Federal Government through its various "programs". And you cannot also calculate the "influence" (ie preferential treatment/arm twisting) that has been used over the years by the Federal Government, or the amount of tax dollars used to fight International trade disputes from countries like Brazil over subsidization of Bombardier. Only god knows how many tax dollars have truly been sunk into that company. Even under the last Liberal administration alone it would be impossible to determine it all. When Chretien was in power, Bombardier lost a big contract somewhere, and within a few days the Federal Government announced it would be awarding a grant to Bombardier to help with the loss... before Bombardier even asked for help. Now that is a sweet arrangement. I am not opposed to the Feds helping companies.. they do it all the time. But Bombardier is a very, very, very special case and most people know that.

[graupner]

You could not find a human being who could truthfully calculate the actual amount of Federal money that has been funnelled into Bombardier from the Federal Government through its various "programs". And you cannot also calculate the "influence" (ie preferential treatment/arm twisting) that has been used over the years by the Federal Government, or the amount of tax dollars used to fight International trade disputes from countries like Brazil over subsidization of Bombardier. Only god knows how many tax dollars have truly been sunk into that company. Even under the last Liberal administration alone it would be impossible to determine it all. When Chretien was in power, Bombardier lost a big contract somewhere, and within a few days the Federal Government announced it would be awarding a grant to Bombardier to help with the loss... before Bombardier even asked for help. Now that is a sweet arrangement.

I totally agree with you, and like mentionned earlier, like it or not, that's how it works in the aerospace industry.
How many billions Boeing receives from the US government?? How many billions Airbus receives from France and Germany??
Bombardier is the 3rd biggest aircraft producer in the world and it needs federal money to compete vs. the Big Two. If the feds would stop giving money to Bombardier, it would most likely go out of bussiness, and that would be catastrophic since it would also bakrupt several other companies tightly linked to it.
If your main reason to stop giving money to this company is because it is not in your province, then we're just getting into another province vs. province lame thread and I'm out of it.

-graupner

[Taller Better]

If your main reason to stop giving money to this company is because it is not in your province, then we're just getting into another province vs. province lame thread and I'm out of it.

-graupner


You are right. This has become province vs province and those threads are never good. Sorry for my part in that and we definitely should let it go.

[malek]

what is more realistic? 0$?

How are you positionned to tell the forumers here that it should recieve less or no subsidies? Just because it does not please you?

RND money is not bad investment, its spent localy and helps the economy be it Bombardier or any other high tech company.

[Taller Better]

^^WTF?? When did I say I was opposed to subsidizing the high tech industry? All I have asked for was complete accountability of expenditure of federal tax dollars. Transparency, and a reasonable amount of control over the amount of subsidizing, and a fair amount of contribution from the Provincial governement. Are you positioned to tell the forumers here that we have no right to even question the amount of subsidizing of Bombardier? If so, let us know. Otherwise give some thought to "letting go" of the province vs province scrap that this has become.

[malek]

wait are you telling me that money is sent to Bombardier under the table without anyone knowing about it ?

A good start would be a comparison of money sent to Boeing by the US vs total amount of money awarded to other companies, the same for Airbus and Embraer. Then come back and tell us that Bombardier is recieving more to much more.

Another point you could make is that Bombardier is recieving the bulk of federal help while other industries which went thru shit did not get any money with some numbers to back them up.

Because as this moment you just sound like a frustrated wannabe politician who like to throw words with nothing backing them up.

[Taller Better]

**deep sigh**

Believe what you want, malek. It makes absolutely no difference to me. Argue with yourself, if it pleases you! Have a great day and a Pleasant Tomorrow! :)

[malek]

Thats what I thought.

empty talk.

[Taller Better]

:whip::Titanic:

[vid]

Ten largest cities in Canada, 1901-2001

Civilized country, my ass.

[graupner]

Ten largest cities in Canada, 1901-2001

Civilized country, my ass.

Yeah definetly.

So, anyone has picture of their city's industry in the early 20th century?? Old industrial complex are always cool to watch.

[graupner]

http://digital.library.mcgill.ca/industrial/images/nelectric12.jpg
http://digital.library.mcgill.ca/industrial/images/nelectric08.jpg

[graupner]

The biggest industrial in North America, Angus / Canadian Pacific Railways manufacturing facilities in Montreal:

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9706/angus19505qb.jpg

[vid]

http://www.archives.gov.on.ca/English/exhibits/paper/pics/3989_high_angle_mill_520.jpg

Great Lakes Paper, in what I'm assuming is the 40s or 50s. It is now BoWater Paper, one of the largest pulp/paper plants in North America. It was recently passed by the Corporation of Thunder Bay as the largest employer in the city.

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/5820/456139874lwznmgph1ud.jpg

The Grain Elevators in their heyday.

[niwell]

Neat picture of the CP facilities. I like the stand-alone plexes on the partially developed land in the foreground. So different from how it works today.

Regarding Bombardier, they simply do not receive the massive subsidization that many aerospace companies in other countries do. Embraer is a perfect example, the company would simply not exist if it wasn't for the Brazilian government. And I do know the former VP of Engineering for Bombardier (prof of mine last semester, plus a grad school reference) they did not get a free ride by any means.

[WhipperSnapper]

I would think that Bombarier has recieved more in federal government money and subsidies than some provinces.

pretty much a guarrantee considering PEI's provincial budget is smaller than Toronto General Hospital (university health network)

[Andy6]

Neat picture of the CP facilities. I like the stand-alone plexes on the partially developed land in the foreground. So different from how it works today.

Regarding Bombardier, they simply do not receive the massive subsidization that many aerospace companies in other countries do. Embraer is a perfect example, the company would simply not exist if it wasn't for the Brazilian government. And I do know the former VP of Engineering for Bombardier (prof of mine last semester, plus a grad school reference) they did not get a free ride by any means.

It's unlikely that Bombardier would be in the aviation business today without its government cash either. And why don't we, as Canadian taxpayers, stop subsidizing a money-losing industry and let our airlines buy planes from other countries at the expense of those countries' taxpayers (who are paying such a large part of the cost of Embraers etc.)? That's how you get ahead in the world...let other people stupidly subsidize your purchases, not by following them down the black hole of subsidies and economic irrationality.

CPR Winnipeg Yards, 1949 -- known then as the world's largest privately-owned railway yards

http://umanitoba.ca/libraries/units/archives/tribune/photos/CanadianPacificRailways.jpg

[malek]

wait wait a sec there, its better to send 100% of our money to some other country for planes while we could make thousands work here and sell the planes developped here elsewhere...

:koko::haha:

[salvius]

^ something tells me Andy is not much into Keynesian economic principles, so depending on his point of view, maybe not.

[m0nkyman]

wait wait a sec there, its better to send 100% of our money to some other country for planes while we could make thousands work here and sell the planes developped here elsewhere...

:koko::haha:

What is the opportunity cost of draining tax dollars from truly profitable industries and shoving it into the gaping maw that is Bombardier? What he's saying is not :koko: . It's absolutely correct.

[habsfan]

incroyable comment il y en a qui ne savent même pas de quoi ils parlent!

[PhilippeMtl]

incroyable comment il y en a qui ne savent même pas de quoi ils parlent!

Pour un peuple ayant n'aucune identité autre que le Tim Horton's et Don Cherry , ca me surprend pas du tout...

[someone123]

wait wait a sec there, its better to send 100% of our money to some other country for planes while we could make thousands work here and sell the planes developped here elsewhere...

That is a silly way of looking at this issue, because there are always other things that can be done with money. The dollars given to Bombardier could have been given to any other company or government program or simply not collected in the first place, in which case Canada's tax regime would have looked a little more attractive and perhaps allowed many competitive businesses to grow a bit more.

The real question is whether subsidies for Bombardier create more benefit overall than other options. The answer is probably no since the subsidies are allowing Bombardier to be uncompetitive and yet still remain in business. Quebec would likely be much better off with a competitive tax regime that encourages the creation of businesses that can survive the trials of a real marketplace.

By the way, insulting people in a language you think they can't understand is really childish.

[MolsonExport]

The biggest industrial in North America, Angus / Canadian Pacific Railways manufacturing facilities in Montreal:

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9706/angus19505qb.jpg

Cool pic. Never did I know that it was considered the largest such facility in NA.

[graupner]

Cool pic. Never did I know that it was considered the largest such facility in NA.

It produced anything needed by a railway company from scratch. Coal, iron ore and water entered the plant, locomotives, box cars, rails and such got out a few days later :) . It used to employ up to 8,000 workers. It closed in 1992 and was mostly demolished, only 3 buildings are left.

[habsfan]

Alstom still uses a portion of that plant, no?

[circle33]

incroyable comment il y en a qui ne savent même pas de quoi ils parlent!


Incredible that you don't provide counter facts and instead try to snigger behind their backs.

Pour un peuple ayant n'aucune identité autre que le Tim Horton's et Don Cherry , ca me surprend pas du tout...

Pure ignorance. Grow up.

[malek]

That is a silly way of looking at this issue, because there are always other things that can be done with money. The dollars given to Bombardier could have been given to any other company or government program or simply not collected in the first place, in which case Canada's tax regime would have looked a little more attractive and perhaps allowed many competitive businesses to grow a bit more.

The real question is whether subsidies for Bombardier create more benefit overall than other options. The answer is probably no since the subsidies are allowing Bombardier to be uncompetitive and yet still remain in business. Quebec would likely be much better off with a competitive tax regime that encourages the creation of businesses that can survive the trials of a real marketplace.

By the way, insulting people in a language you think they can't understand is really childish.

if this was the case, no planes would be flying anywhere in the world.

in theory your stuff is correct, but thats not how the real world works.

I prefer giving my tax dollars to people in Canada than see them go to Brazil, US or Europe.

[Greco Roman]

Pour un peuple ayant n'aucune identité autre que le Tim Horton's et Don Cherry , ca me surprend pas du tout...

Comme c'est interessant! Puisque en Quebec, il n-y-ont pas de Tim Hortons que les citoyens frequent en masse, eh? ;)

[habsfan]

Incredible that you don't provide counter facts and instead try to snigger behind their backs.

Dans le monde de l'aviation toutes les compagnies recoivent des subventions gouvernementales. Que Bombardier en reçoit c'est tout à fait normal. Surout si on considère que Embraer en reçoit BEAUCOUP plus de sont propre governement. Même Chose pour Airbus et Boeing.

Je n'ai plus le gout de m'embarquer dans une autre discussion idiotte avec des gens qui ne comprennent pas de ce dont ils parlent!

J'vais te donner un "A" pour l'effort, mais c'est tout!

[circle33]

Mucho mejor amigo. Though I would contend that Mr. 6's position that following the folly of other governments and subsidizing an industry isn't necessarily the best course of action not an idiotic argument and rather one that merits discussion.

[m0nkyman]

incroyable comment il y en a qui ne savent même pas de quoi ils parlent!

Yeah, 'cause none of us ignorant Westerners could possibly understand french, so it's safe to act like an ass in a different language.
:rolleyes:

I do know what I am talking about. Corporate welfare is a bad idea, and I oppose it pretty universally.

[PhilippeMtl]

Comme c'est interessant! Puisque en Quebec, il n-y-ont pas de Tim Hortons que les citoyens frequent en masse, eh? ;)

Yes, but it is not a cultural thing and people here are not pride of Tim Hortons like you are in other provinces but wathever, I dont want to start a stupid debate. I like Canada and I like Quebec. It is a love-hate relation.

[Greco Roman]

Yes, but it is not a cultural thing and people here are not pride of Tim Hortons like you are in other provinces but wathever, I dont want to start a stupid debate. I like Canada and I like Quebec. It is a love-hate relation.

No worries :) . It's just that you lump me in with so many others who follow the Tim's religion devoutely. I almost never go to Tim's; I'm not a big fan of coffee or doughnuts.
I have no pride for Tim's or Don Cherry for that matter; My Canadian identity is not related to these things anymore than Quebecer's identities are related to poutine or some other stupid comparison. However I do love hockey and am very proud of the fact that I am fully bilingual in both of Canada's national languages. I just with I had the opportunity of practicing my french more often.

[circle33]

Time for a group hug

http://www.kids-birthday-party-guide.com/images/barney.jpg

[YOWflier]

You could not find a human being who could truthfully calculate the actual amount of Federal money that has been funnelled into Bombardier from the Federal Government through its various "programs".
No? This type of information is readily and publicly available thanks to the Access to Information Act.

Clicky (http://www.taxpayer.com/main/news.php?news_id=2476)

Some interesting reading in there ...

[SteelTown]

I love you.....you love me.....we're a happy family with a great big hug and a kiss from me to you.....YAY!!!....won't you say you love me too?

*childhood memories*

[malek]

I just with I had the opportunity of practicing my french more often.

everyone is welcome in the Quebec section :cool:

[Taller Better]

Comme c'est interessant! Puisque en Quebec, il n-y-ont pas de Tim Hortons que les citoyens frequent en masse, eh? ;)

voila, from sea to shining sea....:


http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9150/timsphotobyserge7yz.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

photo posted by Serge.

[Taller Better]

Anyway, getting back to the original intent of the thread, I had no idea that Montreal and Toronto were such a similar size back in 1901. I had always assumed Montreal was many times larger. That chart really was an interesting study.

[IntotheWest]

Withdrawn post...I now see where this thread was headed. Carry on :-)

[Taller Better]

^^ And since Air Canada was moved to Montreal, the Federal Government actually passed a law that the head office of Air Canada MUST be in Quebec (Montreal to be specific). They could not move their head office now if they tried.

[vid]

Pour un peuple ayant n'aucune identité autre que le Tim Horton's et Don Cherry , ca me surprend pas du tout...

Vous avez oublié à dire comment vers l'arrière TROC est comparé au Québec!

Renvoi à la topic... What would Canada be like if somewhere like Kingston or Halifax continued being one of the top 10 largest cities? Imagine the skylines! Wolfe Island would have made a pretty interesting suburb, no?

[Mister F]

^Toronto was slightly smaller than Montreal for most of its history, the gap was never that big.

The real question is whether subsidies for Bombardier create more benefit overall than other options. The answer is probably no since the subsidies are allowing Bombardier to be uncompetitive and yet still remain in business.
If Bombardier is uncompetitive because it's subsidized then every jet manufacturer is uncompetitive. Which raises the question, who are all these uncompetitive companies uncompeting with?

Aircraft manufacturing is being subsidized mainly by the host countries of Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier, and Embraer. But those countries are the ones seeing the benefits and spinoffs of of those industries. Flying would get a lot more expensive worldwide if none of those companies were subsidized. Economies would be damaged, especially in countries that rely heavily on air travel (like Canada, the US, Europe...notice a trend?).

Maybe a more productive suggestion would be to get Canada less dependent on air travel, at least in the densely populated places. Investing in high speed rail could really cut down on flights. Oh wait, Bombardier makes trains too...

[Taller Better]

Renvoi à la topic... What would Canada be like if somewhere like Kingston or Halifax continued being one of the top 10 largest cities? Imagine the skylines! Wolfe Island would have made a pretty interesting suburb, no?

That is actually a pretty cool idea, and definitely more on topic. Quebec City could have been the big one in Quebec. Selkirk, Manitoba was almost the capital of Manitoba. Kingston is a nice city, with some interesting old architecture.

[m0nkyman]

I'd love to get into a nice polite conversation about corporate welfare and how it hinders more than it helps. Perhaps a moderator familiar with the split thread procedure would be so kind as to do so, in order that we don't pollute this thread any further.

[Taller Better]

Just make a new thread!

[graupner]

^^ And since Air Canada was moved to Montreal, the Federal Government actually passed a law that the head office of Air Canada MUST be in Quebec (Montreal to be specific). They could not move their head office now if they tried.

Just like Stats Canada has a law keeping them in Ontario, and several other crown corporations. Remember that until very recently, Air Canada was a crown corporation.

[Taller Better]

Just like Stats Canada has a law keeping them in Ontario, and several other crown corporations. Remember that until very recently, Air Canada was a crown corporation.


Hey graupner, I didn't know that was the case! What are some other examples? What a bizarre thing to do! By the way, even though AC is no longer a Crown Corporation, the law still holds. It was part of the issue when it was up for sale. I imagine there is also a law keeping CN's headquarters in Montreal, but I don't know.

[vid]

I don't think this forum has split threat capabilities.

(typo)

[PhilippeMtl]

It looks like a problem for you than these companies still have their HQ in Montreal.

[IntotheWest]

Hey graupner, I didn't know that was the case! What are some other examples? What a bizarre thing to do! By the way, even though AC is no longer a Crown Corporation, the law still holds. It was part of the issue when it was up for sale. I imagine there is also a law keeping CN's headquarters in Montreal, but I don't know.

It was a crown corp, but what other crown corps were forced to move headquarters? And as Taller points out, the law still exists regardless.

Anyway - I tried backing out my original thread (Taller, you're too quick to respond ;-), because it's not Quebecers fault that this happened - I don't want this coming across as a blame-game. As a Winnipeger though - and as someone alluded to earlier in the discussion - these are things that are still hard to swallow, mainly because you wonder "what could've been".

I'll admit though - I don't know all of the details as to why it was moved in the first place, and quite possibly there was good reason for it...if anyone could shed some light - or a different perspective??

[Taller Better]

It looks like a problem for you than these companies still have their HQ in Montreal.


No, you would be wrong thinking that. I am just bewildered why laws are created to prevent headquarters being moved, that is all. From anywhere.

[malek]

I'll admit though - I don't know all of the details as to why it was moved in the first place, and quite possibly there was good reason for it...if anyone could shed some light - or a different perspective??

I thought it was self explanatory why AC was moved to Montreal... its because of the official language law. In order to guarantee that AC was offering services in both languages (which is still not the case) it was deemed that the best thing to do is to move it to Montreal.

[Greco Roman]

I thought it was self explanatory why AC was moved to Montreal... its because of the official language law. In order to guarantee that AC was offering services in both languages (which is still not the case) it was deemed that the best thing to do is to move it to Montreal.


Pense-tu que ca serait le cas pour Westjet dans un proche avenir?

Could this be a possibility for Westjet in the futur aswell?

[IntotheWest]

I thought it was self explanatory why AC was moved to Montreal... its because of the official language law. In order to guarantee that AC was offering services in both languages (which is still not the case) it was deemed that the best thing to do is to move it to Montreal.

I don't see how that is "self explanatory", since the Official Languages Act didn't take affect until 1969 - some 20 years after AC was moved.

Besides, if that was the case, than AC should have to move to New Brunswick - which I believe is the only official "bilingual" French/English province.

[vid]

What happens to Air Canada if Quebec separates? Will they call it Air Federalist Pigs? :shrug:

[Xelebes]

Wofur sind wir sprachen in Franzosisch?


Ugh, my German is bad.

[graupner]

I imagine there is also a law keeping CN's headquarters in Montreal, but I don't know.

There is no such law, CN and CP were crown corporations until the early 1990s, when both companies were privatized. CP, who also had its headquarters in Montreal, fastly moved to Calgary because it was doing much more bussiness in Western Canada.
CN remained in Montreal because it is much more present in eastern Canada, including the Atlantics. It would probably not be cost effective to move anywhere since moving such a big headquarter ( around 1,500 employees) costs alot of money.
Anyway, CN, as far as it can be traced back in history , was founded in Montreal and has strong roots here. It built many infrastructures and is a major landlord in Montreal.

[Andy6]

There is no such law, CN and CP were crown corporations until the early 1990s, when both companies were privatized. CP, who also had its headquarters in Montreal, fastly moved to Calgary because it was doing much more bussiness in Western Canada.
CN remained in Montreal because it is much more present in eastern Canada, including the Atlantics. It would probably not be cost effective to move anywhere since moving such a big headquarter ( around 1,500 employees) costs alot of money.
Anyway, CN, as far as it can be traced back in history , was founded in Montreal and has strong roots here. It built many infrastructures and is a major landlord in Montreal.

The name of the law is the CN Commercialization Act, S.C. 1995, c. 24. Subsection 8(1) reads, in part:

8. (1) The articles of continuance of CN shall contain...

(c) provisions specifying that the head office of CN is to be situated in the Montreal Urban Community, Quebec.

Thus one reason CN is in Montreal is that it can't legally move elsewhere, as Canadian Pacific did despite its long history in Montreal. CP was not a Crown corporation.

I won't even bill you for my research on that. ;)

[feepa]

Pour un peuple ayant n'aucune identité autre que le Tim Horton's et Don Cherry , ca me surprend pas du tout...

way to try and insult someone, and hide behind a language. Classy.

[feepa]

. dp del plz

[vid]

Double-post, aussi!! Très bon mon amie! Vous êtes marche grande ce soir!

Sarcasm, en français. :)

[Greco Roman]

way to try and insult someone, and hide behind a language. Classy.

Don't worry about it. It's been settled, and no harm was done. Let's just all get along now, k? :cool:

[malek]

The name of the law is the CN Commercialization Act, S.C. 1995, c. 24. Subsection 8(1) reads, in part:

8. (1) The articles of continuance of CN shall contain...

(c) provisions specifying that the head office of CN is to be situated in the Montreal Urban Community, Quebec.

Thus one reason CN is in Montreal is that it can't legally move elsewhere, as Canadian Pacific did despite its long history in Montreal. CP was not a Crown corporation.

I won't even bill you for my research on that. ;)

The CN Commercialization Act was enacted into law on July 13 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_13), 1995 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995) and by November 28 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_28), 1995 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995), the federal government had completed an initial public offering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial_public_offering) (IPO) and transferred all of its shares to private investors. Two key prohibitions in this legislation include, 1) that no individual or corporate shareholder may own more than 15% of CN, and 2) that the company's headquarters must remain in Montreal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal%2C_Quebec), thus maintaining CN as a Canadian corporation.

[ErickMontreal]

Are you kidding me! obviously, what is wrong with Bombardier ?

I just want to know how much money the federal gave to GM, Ford and Daimler to built probably the worst cars ever in ontario factories ? How much money federal gave to APECA and other programs to keep alive Atlantic Canada, how much money Federal gave to Vancouver ports and how much useless subsidy federal government gave to Oil industry in Alberta and Saskachewan as well ?

[malek]

since the oil sands are treated under the mineral extraction taxation law, we are literally giving away the oil, its the least taxed oil in the world!!

If thats not subsidy, then I wonder what it is...

[Andy6]

Are you kidding me! obviously, what is wrong with Bombardier ?

I just want to know how much money the federal gave to GM, Ford and Daimler to built probably the worst cars ever in ontario factories ? How much money federal gave to APECA and other programs to keep alive Atlantic Canada, how much money Federal gave to Vancouver ports and how much useless subsidy federal government gave to Oil industry in Alberta and Saskachewan as well ?

I'm not sure how relevant this is but, according to the table posted above, the combined federal subsidies to Ford, GM and Chrysler are far less than what has been given to Bombardier. Combined, the big three automakers' Canadian operations are about four times the size of Bombardier. So, adjusting for the size of the companies, the Bombardier subsidy would appear to be something like (very approximately) seven times what the auto manufacturers have received. Some of the very large GM subsidy would undoubtedly have been aimed at their Ste-Thérèse plant in Quebec.
http://www.taxpayer.com/main/news.php?news_id=2476

[malek]

I'm not sure how relevant this is but, according to the table posted above, the combined federal subsidies to Ford, GM and Chrysler are far less than what has been given to Bombardier. Combined, the big three automakers' Canadian operations are about four times the size of Bombardier. So, adjusting for the size of the companies, the Bombardier subsidy would appear to be something like (very approximately) seven times what the auto manufacturers have received. Some of the very large GM subsidy would undoubtedly have been aimed at their Ste-Thérèse plant in Quebec.
http://www.taxpayer.com/main/news.php?news_id=2476

why aren't you bitching after Pratt and whitney?!?!? they "recieved" twice as much money as bombardier and they're located in Quebec.

Is it because they don't have a french name?!?!!!?!?:haha::haha::haha::haha:

[ErickMontreal]

I'm not sure how relevant this is but, according to the table posted above, the combined federal subsidies to Ford, GM and Chrysler are far less than what has been given to Bombardier. Combined, the big three automakers' Canadian operations are about four times the size of Bombardier. So, adjusting for the size of the companies, the Bombardier subsidy would appear to be something like (very approximately) seven times what the auto manufacturers have received. Some of the very large GM subsidy would undoubtedly have been aimed at their Ste-Thérèse plant in Quebec.
http://www.taxpayer.com/main/news.php?news_id=2476


It `s quite more expensive to develop a planes as the C-Serie than a Cavalier of Chevrolet assembly plant mainly when the majority of the job has been done in Detroit.

[ErickMontreal]

why aren't you bitching after Pratt and whitney?!?!? they "recieved" twice as much money as bombardier and they're located in Quebec.

Is it because they don't have a french name?!?!!!?!?:haha::haha::haha::haha:

:haha: :haha: :haha:

[IntotheWest]

how much money Federal gave to Vancouver ports and how much useless subsidy federal government gave to Oil industry in Alberta and Saskachewan as well ?

Or...how much did the feds suck Alberta dry in the 80's to give to the east (well, through Ottawa)? NEP? I'm sure out of the some $100 billion extracted through the PGRT, surely some flowed east.

No wonder we're such a messed up country;)

[Taller Better]

Is it because they don't have a french name?!?!!!?!?:haha::haha::haha::haha:


:shrug: Neither do you. Does that make a difference?


This thread is crap.


"There is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity"
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

[Taller Better]

dp

[graupner]

Honestly, close this stupid thread. Enough of this bullshit...

[habsfan]

That is actually a pretty cool idea, and definitely more on topic. Quebec City could have been the big one in Quebec. Selkirk, Manitoba was almost the capital of Manitoba. Kingston is a nice city, with some interesting old architecture.

WEll, i remember reading an article about the 900,000 Québeckers who left between 1890 and 1910. They all left for the North Eastern USA(Vermont, N-Y, Mass, N-H, Maine) I was just thinking what the population of the province would be had they all stayed? Some experts have estimated that the population would have been around 12 to 13 million. Mostly because the baby boom generation would have been that much larger!

Most of these people(who left) used to live in the Eastern Townships. In that report, they were saying that Sherbrooke would have become the second biggest city in the province(with a population of about 1 million), Other cities in the vicinity of Montreal would be much larger as well, most noteably St-Jean-sur-Richelieu(current pop:82,000, project pop:250,000) Granby(current pop: 45,000 projected Pop:125,000) and Sherbrooke Current pop:165,000 Projected pop: 800,000 to 1 million)

I love this kind of stuff. And it allows us to have a better understanding of why there are soo many people in New england with French names!

[Taller Better]

^^^ This kind of thing is what this thread should be about. You can only haggle about subsidizations so long before it gets boring.


Another scenario would be, if the Panama Canal had never been built, Winnipeg would easily be twice the size that it is today.

[habsfan]

Another scenario would be, if the Panama Canal had never been built, Winnipeg would easily be twice the size that it is today.


How so? I'm not doubting you, i'm just trying to understand how that would be!

[Taller Better]

How so? I'm not doubting you, i'm just trying to understand how that would be!


During the early days of Canada, Winnipeg acted as the hub of all East-West trade... much the same as Chicago. It was always assumed Winnipeg would keep growing and become Canada's Chicago, that is why the Banks built such elaborate banking halls, and why the infrastructure was intended for a much larger city (ie the aqueduct for drinking water built something like a hundred years ago is still plenty big for the city). When the Panama Canal was built, it became cheaper to ship goods from the East, down around the Cape, and to the West. Thus, Winnipeg's role as a hub diminished quickly...

[m0nkyman]

How so? I'm not doubting you, i'm just trying to understand how that would be!

Both Winnipeg and Vancouver not too mention LA and Seattle would be significantly bigger, as shipping from would all end on the west coast, and central rail hubs like Winnipeg and Kansas City would have remained of much more importance.

[IntotheWest]

During the early days of Canada, Winnipeg acted as the hub of all East-West trade... much the same as Chicago. It was always assumed Winnipeg would keep growing and become Canada's Chicago, that is why the Banks built such elaborate banking halls, and why the infrastructure was intended for a much larger city (ie the aqueduct for drinking water built something like a hundred years ago is still plenty big for the city). When the Panama Canal was built, it became cheaper to ship goods from the East, down around the Cape, and to the West. Thus, Winnipeg's role as a hub diminished quickly...


This is very true. I still have a Canadian atlas that my Grandmother used in school - from the 1920s. It is incredible to see what was thought of the various cities, and provinces. Winnipeg was a definite hub - and at one point, some even predicted it may become Canada's largest city - as hard as that is to believe now. I wish I could find evidence of the banking and trade street Main street became at the time (does anyone have that info?).

The only map of Canada in the atlas does not show roadways - it has a black and red line running across the south of Canada, one for "CP", and one for "CN". There are also dotted lines leaving from the St Lawrence and Churchill to Europe. Very interesting stuff.

[IntotheWest]

Some experts have estimated that the population would have been around 12 to 13 million. Mostly because the baby boom generation would have been that much larger!


I know this thread was going down the drain - and I'll try and pose this question in the best possible way; Do you think the French laws in Quebec have hindered Quebec's growth at all (possibly for the better??)? Specifically Montreal?

There is no doubt that Montreal and especially Quebec City are two of the most distinct (and beautiful) cities in NA...but I could see Montreal growing much larger than it is. And 30 years ago, I would've guessed Montreal would become Canada's largest city.

[kool maudit]

when they built the metro in the sixites, extrapolations of current growth led them to believe the metro area would contain about 7,000,000 by now.

[MolsonExport]

WEll, i remember reading an article about the 900,000 Québeckers who left between 1890 and 1910. They all left for the North Eastern USA(Vermont, N-Y, Mass, N-H, Maine) I was just thinking what the population of the province would be had they all stayed? Some experts have estimated that the population would have been around 12 to 13 million. Mostly because the baby boom generation would have been that much larger!

Most of these people(who left) used to live in the Eastern Townships. In that report, they were saying that Sherbrooke would have become the second biggest city in the province(with a population of about 1 million), Other cities in the vicinity of Montreal would be much larger as well, most noteably St-Jean-sur-Richelieu(current pop:82,000, project pop:250,000) Granby(current pop: 45,000 projected Pop:125,000) and Sherbrooke Current pop:165,000 Projected pop: 800,000 to 1 million)

I love this kind of stuff. And it allows us to have a better understanding of why there are soo many people in New england with French names!

I've read about this too. There was a prior exodus in the mid 1800's. The catholic church was worried about the 'flock' moving away. Places like Lewiston (in Maine) are 80% ethnically French-Canadian.

So sad. Imagine just how big Montreal would be today.

[Taller Better]

when they built the metro in the sixites, extrapolations of current growth led them to believe the metro area would contain about 7,000,000 by now.

I can easily believe that; in fact I was thinking even a larger population. Immigration to Canada has been much higher than they realised it would be in the 60's. I am a product of the 60's, and know how the entire focus of the country was on Montreal. When that is the case, that is where people flock to when they move.

[Kilgore Trout]

I've read about this too. There was a prior exodus in the mid 1800's. The catholic church was worried about the 'flock' moving away. Places like Lewiston (in Maine) are 80% ethnically French-Canadian.

in the early 20th century the catholic church considered new england to be part of "greater french canada," much in the same way as manitoba or northern alberta. french catholic parishes were established to preserve the faith and french language, but of course america's assimilationist policy towards immigrants got in the way. french was repressed in schools, sometimes through physical force (schoolkids in maine were hit by their teachers for speaking french, for instance).

i've seen figures that 1/3 of new hampshire's current population is of french canadian origin.

[malek]

I know this thread was going down the drain - and I'll try and pose this question in the best possible way; Do you think the French laws in Quebec have hindered Quebec's growth at all (possibly for the better??)? Specifically Montreal?


Of course it did, but then again something had to be done when employees are forced to talk between themselves in English so that the boss can understands:haha:

/keeping it civilized

[Kilgore Trout]

Places like Lewiston (in Maine) are 80% ethnically French-Canadian.

believe it or not, lewiston is now 5% somali, due to secondary migration from atlanta and other cities.

[habsfan]

During the early days of Canada, Winnipeg acted as the hub of all East-West trade... much the same as Chicago. It was always assumed Winnipeg would keep growing and become Canada's Chicago, that is why the Banks built such elaborate banking halls, and why the infrastructure was intended for a much larger city (ie the aqueduct for drinking water built something like a hundred years ago is still plenty big for the city). When the Panama Canal was built, it became cheaper to ship goods from the East, down around the Cape, and to the West. Thus, Winnipeg's role as a hub diminished quickly...

thanks!

[habsfan]

I know this thread was going down the drain - and I'll try and pose this question in the best possible way; Do you think the French laws in Quebec have hindered Quebec's growth at all (possibly for the better??)? Specifically Montreal?

Contrary to what some might think, i'm not blind, and am fully aware that the Language laws hindered Montreal's growth. But I think it was well worth it, cause without those laws, Montreal would just become another north american/english speaking city.(not that speaking english is a bad thing, but to preserve our language and Culture, it was worth it!)

And 30 years ago, I would've guessed Montreal would become Canada's largest city.

Well, up until 1976, Montreal WAS the largest city in Canada.

[habsfan]

when they built the metro in the sixites, extrapolations of current growth led them to believe the metro area would contain about 7,000,000 by now.

Yeah, i heard that as well! They were expecting the Baby boom to last forever!

[Taller Better]

@ habsfan, np! Winnipeg has an amazing collection of turn-of-the-century office buildings, often built in the extremely elegant Italian Renaissance style. Because development slowed down so much, many of them were spared from the wrecker's ball.
Here is an interesting "what if" scenario that just occurred to me. What if the fort that was established in Toronto in the 1740's had become a permanent settlement, either by the original French or the British that soon came and captured it? That would have added half a century to the architecture and the development of Toronto.... what would the city be like today?

Contrary to what some might think, i'm not blind, and am fully aware that the Language laws hindered Montreal's growth. But I think it was well worth it, cause without those laws, Montreal would just become another north american/english speaking city.(not that speaking english is a bad thing, but to preserve our language and Culture, it was worth it!)Well, up until 1976, Montreal WAS the largest city in Canada.


Just out of curiosity, do you think a continuation and strengthening of the previous "Quiet Revolution" would have eventually realised the same goals with less hindrence and a much larger/powerful present city, or do you think the only way was the path that was taken. Again, I have not ever heard this discussed so I am curious about opinions.

[habsfan]

Here is an interesting "what if" scenario that just occurred to me. What if the fort that was established in Toronto in the 1740's had become a permanent settlement, either by the original French or the British that soon came and captured it? That would have added half a century to the architecture and the development of Toronto.... what would the city be like today?

i thikn it was originally called Fort Roullié(Fort Rust)?

It's hard to imagine Toronto growing at a faster pace then today's rate of growth, but I would imagine if it had been developped by the French, then Toronto would have had a History somewhat similar to that of New Orleans(on a much larger scale!)

What I mean is that there would be many traces of French heritage in the city, but with almost nobody actually speaking the language.

[Taller Better]

^^ The actual length of time that it was controlled by the French was short.. the British seized it, and the French torched it to prevent it being reused. But the British promptly left after seizing it.

Also, I added on another question above in my last entry.

[WHISTLERINMUSKOKA]

I'd love to see Halifax boom, it's a bit strange that we don't have a major city right on the East coast.

[habsfan]

do you think a continuation and strengthening of the previous "Quiet Revolution" would have eventually realised the same goals with less hindrence and a much larger/powerful present city, or do you think the only way was the path that was taken.

if by "same goals" you mean independance, i guess my answer would be yes. The path taken had some mistakes...I wish that the FLQ had never existed. My guess is that had they continued with the "Quiet Revolution", many anglophone Montrealers would have left, but not as many. I'd say maybe 100,000 would have left instead of the 300,000 who actually left. IN that sense i thin Montreal would have been stronger...but I still think Toronto would have become the official "centre" of Canada., It was inevitable.

[graupner]

What if both Toronto and Montreal were french speaking?? Ahahaha...

Speaking of how the events of the 70s influenced negatively our growth, I agree, but for francophones, it meant nothing but progress.
Finally, we could speak our language at work, finally we could be presidents of our company, and make french the official language (french WAS an official language, but english was much more widespread than it is today).
So globally, I think these events were very positive for the french people in Canada. Screw SunLife and all the banks if they don't want to operate in french!!!!
We have the National Bank (Banque Nationale) , Desjardins, La Capitale, Industrielle Alliance, Power Corporation, Great West, London Life, Canada Life, IGM, Mackenzie,Gesca and several others, which are now owned or controlled by francophones. 40 years ago, it would had been unthinkable for a french canadian to own or even run a financial institution.
Basically, the wealth controlled by anglophones move to Toronto, and it allowed french canadians to create their own.

[ÉricdeMtl]

others, which are now owned or controlled by francophones. 40 years ago, it would had been unthinkable for a french canadian to own or even run a financial institution.
Basically, the wealth controlled by anglophones move to Toronto, and it allowed french canadians to create their own.
^ Et voilà ! Well put, what was once lost ,is now gained back in another way with a new generation of entrepreneurs.

It would be very interesting how well another province / state would do if they had loss over 1 Million of their residents over a period of 70 years, especially considering that those residents back in the early 1900's were very hard workers and had big families, and not to mention those who left in the mid 70's were mostly ones with a financial advantage.

Surely ,the bragging of some forumers would definitely be less measurable.