Ten largest cities in Canada, 1901-2001

[flar]

It's interesting to see the historical rise and fall of various cities across the country:

1901

Montreal......267 730
Toronto.......208 040
Quebec.........68 840
Hamilton........52 634
Winnipeg.......42 340
Halifax..........40 832
Saint John.....40 711
London.........37 976
St. John's......29 594
Vancouver.....29 432


1911

Montreal......467 986
Toronto.......376 471
Winnipeg......136 035
Vancouver....120 847
Hamilton........81 969
Quebec.........78 118
Halifax..........46 619
London..........46 300
Calgary.........43 704
Saint John.....42 511


1921

Montreal......618 506
Toronto.......521 893
Winnipeg......179 087
Vancouver....163 220
Hamilton.......114 151
Quebec.........95 193
Calgary.........63 305
London..........60 359
Edmonton......58 821
Halifax...........58 372


1931

Montreal......818 577
Toronto.......631 207
Vancouver....246 593
Winnipeg......218 785
Hamilton......155 547
Quebec........130 594
Calgary.........83 761
Edmonton......79 197
London..........71 148
Windsor.........63 108


1941

Montreal......1 145 282
Toronto..........909 928
Vancouver......377 447
Winnipeg........299 937
Ottawa-Hull....226 290
Quebec..........224 756
Hamilton.........197 732
Windsor..........123 973
Halifax.............98 636
Edmonton.........97 842


1951

Montreal......1 395 400
Toronto.......1 117 470
Vancouver......530 728
Winnipeg........354 069
Ottawa-Hull....281 908
Quebec..........274 827
Hamilton.........259 685
Edmonton.......173 075
Windsor..........157 672
Calgary...........139 105


1961

Montreal......2 109 509
Toronto.......1 824 481
Vancouver......790 165
Winnipeg........475 989
Ottawa-Hull....429 750
Hamilton.........395 189
Quebec..........357 568
Edmonton.......337 538
Calgary..........279 062
Windsor..........193 365


1971

Montreal......2 743 208
Toronto.......2 628 043
Vancouver...1 082 352
Ottawa-Hull....602 510
Winnipeg........540 262
Hamilton.........498 523
Edmonton.......495 702
Quebec..........480 502
Calgary..........403 319
St. Catharines.303 429


1981

Toronto........3 130 392
Montreal.......2 862 286
Vancouver....1 268 183
Ottawa-Hull.....743 821
Edmonton........740 882
Calgary...........625 966
Winnipeg.........592 061
Quebec...........583 820
Hamilton..........542 095
St. Catharines..342 645


1991

Toronto........3 898 830
Montreal.......3 209 100
Vancouver....1 602 590
Ottawa-Hull.....941 815
Edmonton........841 130
Calgary...........754 035
Winnipeg.........660 450
Quebec...........645 535
Hamilton.........599 760
London...........381 520


2001

Toronto........4 682 897
Montreal.......3 426 350
Vancouver....1 986 965
Ottawa-Hull...1 063 664
Calgary...........951 395
Edmonton........937 845
Quebec...........682 757
Winnipeg.........671 274
Hamilton..........662 401
London............432 451



Source: Urban Canada: Sociological Perspectives, Harry H. Hiller (ed.), 2005 Oxford University Press. (his source is StatsCan)

[LordMandeep]

Woh... I never knew we grew by almost 900k people in that decade. I wonder how much its growing now. We need the new cenus!!

[waterloowarrior]

2005

Toronto (Ont.) 5,304.1
Montréal (Que.) 3,635.7
Vancouver (B.C.) 2,208.3
Ottawa–Gatineau 1,148.8
Calgary (Alta.) 1,060.3
Edmonton (Alta.) 1,016.0
Quebec (Que.) 717.6
Hamilton (Ont.) 714.9
Winnipeg (Man.) 706.9
London (Ont.) 464.3

11. Kitchener (Ont.) 458.6

Note: these numbers are different than flar's, being population estimates rather than census counts.. this means that, for example, Toronto's population didn't grow by 600,000 in four years (using estimates, 2001-2005 growth is about 420k).

[WHISTLERINMUSKOKA]

How long until this thread goes down the wrong path?

[habsfan]

well, the good thing for Montreal is that the 2001 to 2011 decade will be way better than the previous 3 decades. We're only half way through the decade, and already the city has grown by almost as much as the previous decade!

[chuber]

Wow, Toronto's growth in many decades is like adding another city from the list to their pop. Crazy.

Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary and Edmonton have all been growing very quickly lately though.

[Arriviste]

Note that Calgary was a city of about 5-6000 if I'm not mistaken in 1901. It had a huge population increase between 1901 and 1911.

[raggedy13]

^Ya, it looks like the west in general had pretty good growth from 1901-1911, as both Winnipeg and Vancouver shot up the list over that period.

[WHISTLERINMUSKOKA]

Looks like all the western cities experienced the same population jump then. Checkout Vancouvers. 29 432 - 120 847, and the Peggs 42 340 - 136 035!

[skyscraper_1]

^Ya, it looks like the west in general had pretty good growth from 1901-1911, as both Winnipeg and Vancouver shot up the list over that period.
400% increase in 10 years!

[Kevin_foster]

Yeah the Peg Really took off! I never knew it was once the third largest city in Canada.

[Boris2k7]

Note that Calgary was a city of about 5-6000 if I'm not mistaken in 1901. It had a huge population increase between 1901 and 1911.

http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/calgary/calgary1895.html

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/7030/calgarypopgrowthjd5.png

961% Bitches! ;)

[vid]

They could once again become the third largest city in Canada. All they have to do is annex Saskatchewan!... And the rest of Manitoba... Northern Ontario... Part of Southern Ontario, or part of Alberta... Maybe the territories too?

[Rusty van Reddick]

where the hell was Ottawa before 1941?

[flar]

I like the old cities like Winnipeg, Hamilton and Quebec that enjoyed their heyday early in the 20th century. The second half of the century belonged to Ottawa Calgary and Edmonton.

[ExcaliburKid]

where the hell was Ottawa before 1941?

Looks like they had to swallow up Hull to became a real city :haha:

JK guys, all a joke

[LordMandeep]

I think by 2011 Hamilton-Toronto-Oshawa should be considerd a metro area.

[Only The Lonely..]

I like the old cities like Winnipeg, Hamilton and Quebec that enjoyed their heyday early in the 20th century. The second half of the century belonged to Ottawa Calgary and Edmonton.

I agree. In Winnipeg's case, we still enjoy a rich architectural legacy that results from that time.

Many of Winnipeg's old office buildings, warehouses, and inner city residential neighbourhoods would not look out of place in Chicago.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/105/301274772_8735c2cf5a.jpg?v=0
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/4/3970889_c75f19b085.jpg?v=0
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/34/69969447_95ffed394b.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/images/spaceball.gif
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/38/79213301_51b64a087c.jpg?v=0http://farm1.static.flickr.com/34/70351248_265fb1cc86.jpg?v=0
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/35/70357922_0cb49c0ae2.jpg?v=0http://farm1.static.flickr.com/18/70351255_6ec983df3c.jpg?v=0
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/20/70338881_728c5a2365.jpg?v=0http://farm1.static.flickr.com/35/70338875_73e8a50bb1.jpg?v=0

[Wooster]

Intersting that Vancouver's population was what Calgary's is now in 1971. It was a far different looking city at 1.08 million.

[LordMandeep]

The battle between Toronto and Montreal in 1971 to 1981 must have been interesting.

[someone123]

Canada's cities expanded dramatically from 1880-1930 or so.

Saint John is probably the biggest anomaly on that list. It was 7th as late as 1900 but isn't even the largest city in New Brunswick anymore.

At one point, Saint John was the third largest in what is now Canada (~1840s). Halifax was third largest from the 1750s-1840s, and maybe technically would have been first or second for a short period around the time of the American Revolution (the New York Loyalists came to Halifax en masse). At one point, Shelburne, Nova Scotia, was the largest city in British North America.

Annapolis Royal and Louisbourg would have also been first, second, or third at various points.

[Only The Lonely..]

*double post*

[Only The Lonely..]

Toronto owes its success to Quebec Separatism more than anything else.

Had the October 1970 crisis not occurred, it'd interesting to see how many prominent Canadian companies would still be HQ'd in Montreal?

[habsfan]

Toronto owes its success to Quebec Separatism more than anything else.

Had the October 1970 crisis not occurred, it'd interesting to see how many prominent Canadian companies would still be HQ'd in Montreal?

for starters...Sun Life, The Royal Bank(even though they still say that their HQ is in Sincity, we all know where the decisions are taken!) plus about 300,000 Montrealers.

[Only The Lonely..]

for starters...Sun Life, The Royal Bank(even though they still say that their HQ is in Sincity, we all know where the decisions are taken!) plus about 300,000 Montrealers.

I guess what I as a westerner still don't understand, is why separatism is an idea many Quebecois still want to explore?

It's costed Montreal so much. My feeling is that Montreal would still be the biggest city in Canada had none of this sillyness ever happened.

[samne]

Toronto owes most of its population in the 1970's to international immigration...thats when Toronto changed from a colonial city to a multicultural one.

[Greco Roman]

Toronto owes most of its population in the 1970's to international immigration...thats when Toronto changed from a colonial city to a multicultural one.

I think this is true for all of Canada's top ten (some more than others), just that it's happening now.

[malek]

the exodus started way before the FLQ in the 70s and the referendum with the first language law in the beginning of the 60s.

The bankers didn't want any of it and moved their HQ to Toronto.

none of this sillyness ever happened.

Don't call something you don't understand silly because it only shows your ignorance.

This thread isn't about referendums or separation, its about the top 10 cities and their population evolution in a century.

[alps]

Interesting that Halifax falls out of the list for 1931, and pops back in for a bit in the 1940s. The war I guess?

[MrChills]

Hmm... It's interesting to see that St. John's was the nine largest in Canada in 1901 when at that time it was the capital city of another country, Newfoundland :rolleyes:

[habsfan]

I guess what I as a westerner still don't understand, is why separatism is an idea many Quebecois still want to explore?

It's costed Montreal so much. My feeling is that Montreal would still be the biggest city in Canada had none of this sillyness ever happened.

Dude, if you really want to have a serious and respectful discussion about the separatist issue, i suggest you come to the Québec board. I'll gladly do my best to try to explain it to you. But i will NOT get into another debate on the canadian sub forum!

[Bassic Lab]

where the hell was Ottawa before 1941?

That struck me as really odd as well. For it to have had less than 63 108 people in 1931 and then 226 290 in 1941 is pretty astounding. Were alot of depression era make make work projects based in Ottawa?

[flar]

^^ I'm guessing Ottawa's population exploded as the role and size of government grew immensely during the depression. Some of it would have been make work projects and most of it an increasing civil service due to the rise of the welfare state.

[Greco Roman]

Edmonton is on a roll; it's only a matter of time before Winnipeg gets back on track for population growth :)

[shappy]

Toronto owes its success to Quebec Separatism more than anything else.

what nonsense!

[vid]

Well in a way, it does. Obviously it's size and multiculturalism are a bigger benefit to it now than Quebec separatism, but back in the 60s/70s Quebec Separatism was a major influence in Toronto's growing influence.

[samne]

^
myth other people like to spread.

[vid]

Toronto owes it's success to Italians. They breed like rabbits.

Happy? :shrug:

I know that's the case for the Lakehead in the 1940s.

[samne]

Political unrest sounds much sexier than the reality that manufacturing was a dying industry in most northern rustbelt cities starting from the 1960's. Not saying MTL is a rustbelt town with the likes of Detroit, St. Louis, Cleveland etc. who also experienced significant decline, but manufacturing was very important.

[vid]

So THATS why the HQs left... Interesting. :)

Manufacturing is dying here. Is... umm... Pate- no, they're bankrupt.. umm.. I can't related, nothing major is HQed here. :(

[flar]

I think the populations for Ottawa are wrong, it should have appeared in the list earlier. You'd think a textbook would get something like this right, but then again I've seen a lot of crappy textbooks.

[malek]

samne, toronto is a giant in the manufacturing ... the auto manufacturing one, with 2 millions cars produced last year. What about that ?

[niwell]

Yes, Ottawa is a pretty glaring omission. IIRC the population was over 30000 as of 1900. It was 14000 as of 1863...

[LordMandeep]

however i think Montreal and Toronto would have been fighting neck to neck for many years to come, if the 1970 event did not happen.

[Rusty van Reddick]

I think the populations for Ottawa are wrong, it should have appeared in the list earlier. You'd think a textbook would get something like this right, but then again I've seen a lot of crappy textbooks.

The author of the textbook is not one of the university's brightest bulbs.

[LordMandeep]

Montreal did have an effect. Look at how Toronto's skyline exploded in size in the 70d's. After that its been immigration.

[malek]

of course it did, but Toronto was really dynamic even before the political troubles.

an estimated 300k left for Toronto, most of them were well off tp very well off. Thats like a big rich suburb for Toronto :)

[salvius]

Toronto owes its success to Quebec Separatism more than anything else.

I think the pop stats actually clearly disprove this incredibly popular notion (not that that didn't help, but...).

[Only The Lonely..]

the exodus started way before the FLQ in the 70s and the referendum with the first language law in the beginning of the 60s.

The bankers didn't want any of it and moved their HQ to Toronto.



Don't call something you don't understand silly because it only shows your ignorance.

This thread isn't about referendums or separation, its about the top 10 cities and their population evolution in a century.

My opinion is just as valid as yours..to most westerner's the idea of Quebec being a "sovereign" nation that uses Canadian currency is indeed quite silly.

[Only The Lonely..]

Dude, if you really want to have a serious and respectful discussion about the separatist issue, i suggest you come to the Québec board. I'll gladly do my best to try to explain it to you. But i will NOT get into another debate on the canadian sub forum!

I'm not purposefully trying to be disrespectful. Cultural issues aside, it seems like Quebec was economically hurt by the issue of separation and thus Montreal's fall from 1st to 2nd largest city.

You think I don't understand you, but just as easily you don't understand me. I grew up in a province where most people stop speaking French after grade four. If not for Trudeau people here probably wouldn't speak French at all. For the most part Winnipeg is still smarting from the mistakes made by people 80 years earlier (i.e. Winnipeg General Strike).

I'm just curious..I’m not trying to be rude. For the longest time I have had the notion that the issue of Quebec sovereignty and Toronto surpassing Montreal were related issues.

If anyone can explain to me why the big banks left Montreal, I’m all ears and have an open mind.

[malek]

My opinion is just as valid as yours..to most westerner's the idea of Quebec being a "sovereign" nation that uses Canadian currency is indeed quite silly.

you may be for or against something, but calling it silly just shows how immature you are.

Scores of people on both sides have clashed for generations and are still but the only word you found was "silly".

You are silly.

[malek]

If anyone can explain to me why the big banks left Montreal, I’m all ears and have an open mind.

with the first language law in the beginning of the 60s.

The bankers didn't want any of it and moved their HQ to Toronto.

.......

[Doady]

Cmaname1 Pop01 Pop11 Pop21 Pop31 Pop41 Pop51 Pop61 Pop71 Pop81 Pop91 Pop2001
Toronto 306478 481801 690237 905738 1011603 1276298 1824481 2628043 2998947 3893046 4682897
Montreal 360838 586168 738210 1020018 1145282 1395400 2109509 2743208 2828349 3127242 3426350
Vancouver 33946 123453 183655 279989 377447 530728 790165 1082352 1268183 1602502 1986965
Ottawa-Hull 96104 119384 148705 170040 226290 281908 429750 602510 717978 920857 1063664
Calgary 4392 43704 63305 83761 93021 139105 279062 403319 592743 754033 951395
Edmonton 4176 31064 58851 79197 97842 173075 337568 495702 657057 839924 937845
Quebec (City) 90941 104554 124627 170915 224756 274827 357568 480502 576075 645550 682757
Winnipeg 45798 136035 194561 238281 299937 354069 475989 540262 584842 652354 671274
Hamilton 79452 111706 153567 199019 197732 259685 395189 498523 542095 599760 662401
London 37976 43600 60959 71148 91024 121516 181283 286011 283668 381522 432451
Kitchener 52594 62607 75266 89852 98720 126123 154864 226846 287801 356421 414284
St. Catharines-Niagara 62140 77592 115293 136930 158902 212599 217000 303429 304353 364552 377009
Halifax 74662 80257 97228 100204 98636 133931 183946 222637 277727 320501 359183
Victoria 28991 44498 51010 55761 75560 104303 154152 195800 233481 287897 311902
Windsor 12153 17829 44461 77359 123973 157672 193365 258643 246110 262075 307877
Oshawa 4394 7436 11940 23439 26813 41545 80918 94994 154217 240104 296298
Saskatoon 113 12004 25739 43291 43027 53268 95526 126449 154210 210023 225927
Regina 2249 30213 34432 53209 58245 71319 112141 140734 164313 191692 192800
St. John's 74104 90838 131814 154820 171859 172918
Sudbury 16103 29778 43029 58251 68548 94829 110694 155424 149923 157613 155601
Chicoutimi-Jonquiere 16872 23375 37578 55724 78881 115904 127196 133703 135172 160928 154938
Sherbrooke 18426 23211 30786 37386 42466 56711 70253 97550 117324 139194 153811
Kingston 20030 20810 24104 26180 33806 36870 63419 85877 114982 136401 146838
Trois-Rivieres 12418 19945 32992 50795 62332 72979 83659 97930 111453 136303 137507
Saint John 51759 53372 60486 61613 70927 78337 95563 106744 114048 124981 122678
Thunder Bay 11219 39496 49560 65118 66788 76197 92000 112093 121379 124427 121986
Moncton 9026 15906 23939 28199 32560 45268 57982 70274 98354 106503 117727

[Only The Lonely..]

with the first language law in the beginning of the 60s.

The bankers didn't want any of it and moved their HQ to Toronto.


It just seems expensive to build a skyscraper like Place Ville-Marie and to vacate it a decade later because of language laws.

[Only The Lonely..]

you may be for or against something, but calling it silly just shows how immature you are.

Scores of people on both sides have clashed for generations and are still but the only word you found was "silly".

You are silly.

It's nice to see you didn't take any of my comments personally, afterall, it is only the Internet.

[malek]

It just seems expensive to build a skyscraper like Place Ville-Marie and to vacate it a decade later because of language laws.

i think PVM was built the same year the language law was voted... '62 or '63.

I'm too tired to google it up, work tomorrow:(

[Only The Lonely..]

i think PVM was built the same year the language law was voted... '62 or '63.

I'm too tired to google it up, work tomorrow:(

That's fine. I don't mean to be an asshole. I appreciate you telling me this.

Believe it or not I like Montreal.

:cheers:

[Taller Better]

^
myth other people like to spread.


the National Post seems to love that myth too. Thinks Toronto was created by unrest in Montreal. :haha:

[tkoe]

According to those figures, Toronto has grown by a massive amount in the last 20 years and it seems like the consensus is that it was based on international immigration. What did the city do to start attracting so many people and sustain it over such a long period of time? Seems like the distribution of immigrants across the country is very uneven. I wonder if this is going to become a bigger problem in the future.

[Taller Better]

According to those figures, Toronto has grown by a massive amount in the last 20 years and it seems like the consensus is that it was based on international immigration. What did the city do to start attracting so many people and sustain it over such a long period of time? Seems like the distribution of immigrants across the country is very uneven. I wonder if this is going to become a bigger problem in the future.


It has always been a pretty ambitious and hard working kind of town, and it had some very good city planning in the 60's. Because the economy was broadly based, and not all in one sector like energy, it attracted a broader group of immigrants. Within the past 20 years, like most Canadian cities, it has become pretty comfortable for people from all over the world to move here and fit in relatively easily.

[feepa]

Charts are fun to look at, aren't they?

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/3848/chartrx2.jpg

this is based on not the first post, but the second set of numbers.

A quick copy and paste special into excel, created a chart, hosted jpg on imageshack, and voila.

[Taller Better]

Great chart, but it is missing indication of years on the bottom axis.

[graupner]

Montreal's "decline" is a mix of all the issues discussed here.

The first, most important factor in Montreal's decline is Montreal's industry. The city's industry was based on old, declining sectors, like textile, siderurgy, Train/locomotive manufacturing, and many other now almost dead sectors. Between 1971 and 1996, Montreal lost about 400k manufacturing jobs. Also, all the head offices of these industries died just like the factories did.

Many very old companies based in Montreal, like Dominion Textile, Canadian Car and Foundry, Jenkins Valves, Dominion Bridge did not left for Toronto, but simply went bankrupt because they were not needed anymore. This is not the cause of any language law.

The second most important factor, is of course the FLQ/Separatism issue. Many big companies were scared by all the upcoming changes (that actually never happened) and flew to Toronto( and partly to Calgary). We lost, amongst others, SunLife, RBC, BMO, CIBC, Canadian Pacific, Johnson&Johnson, and several others. Along with these companies, about 300k people ( mostly, if not only anglophones) left for Toronto.

And another factor, but surprisingly less discussed here, is all the bad decisions took by the provincial and municipal governments. The construction of the Olympic Stadium, for example, cost Montreal about 4 Billion $ in 2001 constant dollars. While the city's ressources were busy paying for what is now an abandoned stadium, the water network was rusting, the roads were cracking and Montreal's image was fading away. Entire neighborhoods were bulldozed, in what was supposed to renovate the city, but finally left nothing but huge vacant lots, that we still don't know what to do with today.

No this is not Buffalo, this is Montreal. Abandoned grain silos and abandoned factories. This is not the cause of language laws, simply the economy moving along.
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/1364/138722bu9.jpg
http://www.plein-sud.org/expos2005/rew_photos/dome.jpg

[LordMandeep]

An immigrant would feel like home in some parts of Toronto and Vancouver, that why they have both grown so much. Its working the city Of Toronto itself is growing by 20-30k a year to the city planners. Its expected the city itself will grow 250k in the next few years and will reach its goal of 3 million people by 2031 much faster then expected.

The Suburbs have exploded in growth as well. The next cenus will be interesting.

[ldoto]

Go london!:cool:

[miketoronto]

I don't think Montreal would have stayed the largest even if the companies stayed.

Toronto has seen much higher immigration levels then Montreal. And I am sure that would have been the case even if Montreal was still the financial capital.

[graupner]

I don't think Montreal would have stayed the largest even if the companies stayed.

Toronto has seen much higher immigration levels then Montreal. And I am sure that would have been the case even if Montreal was still the financial capital.

I have to disagree, all the first waves of immigration ( italians, scotish, jewish,ukrainians, etc) ended massively in Montreal until the 60s. Toronto became a more interesting location to move in the late 60s/70s, just as it was becoming the financial capital.

[someone123]

I don't know what immigration figures were like in the 1950s and 60s but there's no particular reason to believe that they were already higher in Toronto back then.

Montreal's situation is not that unique. There are dozens of US (and Canadian) cities that ended up with the same kind of problems around the same time to varying degrees. They all relied on similar heavy industries that have now migrated away from North America.

I made a chart similar to feepa's a while ago, but I think I've deleted it. In addition to labelling the years I'd suggest using a logarithmic scale, since populations grow exponentially.

[big W]

And another factor, but surprisingly less discussed here, is all the bad decisions took by the provincial and municipal governments. The construction of the Olympic Stadium, for example, cost Montreal about 4 Billion $ in 2001 constant dollars. While the city's ressources were busy paying for what is now an abandoned stadium, the water network was rusting, the roads were cracking and Montreal's image was fading away. Entire neighborhoods were bulldozed, in what was supposed to renovate the city, but finally left nothing but huge vacant lots, that we still don't know what to do with today.


I still think that the provincial government is very ineffecient and needs to shape up in Quebec. Not that we are any better here in Alberta (look at our spending levels). The differance is we went through belt tightening here in Alberta several years before any other province and the feds. Considering when we were paying off debt with oil at $17 bucks (thus not much coming in for royalties) most of Canada was still in deficit. The problem is that in Quebec if I recall Charet tried to do some drastic measures to the size of government and was hamstrung vs Klein who blew up hospitals in Calgary and sold smaller ones off (now condos and old folks homes) in Edmonton leaving only 2 operating hospitals in Edmonton. I doubt Bouchard/Laundry/Charet could do that even if they wanted too.

[big W]

Anyways sorry for the last post going off on a tangent so back to the thread. Its intresting how the growth of cities was much different prior to the 1970's. I personally think the flucuations have to do with 2 things, the West basically coming of age and the government policies (growth of the welfare state) made less of a desire to move based on economic fortunes.

[someone123]

Considering when we were paying off debt with oil at $17 bucks (thus not much coming in for royalties) most of Canada was still in deficit.

Resource royalties make up but one piece of a provincial government's bottom line. Governments also collect a wide array of other taxes (most notably income tax and usually sales tax) and their health care costs vary considerably based on the populations they serve (older people require far more spending). Even if Quebec collected royalties on par with Alberta's on a per capita basis, which isn't going to happen anytime soon, it would be in a weaker financial position.

[malek]

I still think that the provincial government is very ineffecient and needs to shape up in Quebec. Not that we are any better here in Alberta (look at our spending levels). The differance is we went through belt tightening here in Alberta several years before any other province and the feds. Considering when we were paying off debt with oil at $17 bucks (thus not much coming in for royalties) most of Canada was still in deficit. The problem is that in Quebec if I recall Charet tried to do some drastic measures to the size of government and was hamstrung vs Klein who blew up hospitals in Calgary and sold smaller ones off (now condos and old folks homes) in Edmonton leaving only 2 operating hospitals in Edmonton. I doubt Bouchard/Laundry/Charet could do that even if they wanted too.

you keep repeating that same story like a broken record, and I believe I told you that we went thru a similar one at about the same time but you keep ignoring it.

Under Bouchard up to 10 000 health workers (doctors and nurses) were fired or sent for early retirement, and lots of hospitals were closed. Most of them took their severance package and moved south or west.

from 2004 to 2014, 32000 public servants will retire, only half of them will be replaced, which will result in a reduction of another 20%!

From 2003 to 209: salary were held at 0%, 0%, 2%, 2%, 2% and 2% increase per year. Lower than inflation rates.

And in fiscal year 2006-2007, govt spending vs the GNP (size of govt against economy) is the lowest ever recorded in Quebec.

If you know how low the salary were in provincial govt, you would be shocked. To give you an idea, an engineer starts at 36k, the doctors and nurses are the least paid in Canada (less than atlantic provinces), ...

We need a change of philosophy in direction more than any other cuts. For example changing work regulations instead of those mass firings in the health sectors would have greatly been beneficial. Instead we now have to wait another 5 years or so before compensating doctors shortages created 15 years ago with all the new graduates.

etc etc etc I just noticed i'm off topic:P

[graupner]

I can't deny that, Quebec's government is poorly managed. All the decisions are took for political reason, like gaining more votes, rather than for the benefits and for the future of the province.
So many investments are made on short-term vision, and so many private investments are blocked because they would supposely cause too much pollution or not be fair for the whole province.

Right now, our government is busy working on a "green plan" supposed to reduce the ammount of carbon dioxide we emit, even if we already are the lowest emitter in North America. This stupidity is going to cost us about 300 Millions every year for the next 5 years, even if we're already the most heavily taxed province in Canada.

Quebec decided to have its own immigration service, which means that if you want to come live in Quebec, you have to make additional procedures than if you wanted, for example to come live in Toronto. How stupid is that!!
Honestly, if you don't know much about Quebec, you're not going to give yourself the trouble for all the additional paperwork. You're simply going to get your canadien citizenship and go live in Ontario...

[Taller Better]

There is a very strange situation happening right now with Boeing and our federal government. Canada signed a huge contract for military supplies with Boeing, and as part of the contract they required Boeing to purchase an amount equal to the cost of the project on goods in Canada. Boeing is more than happy to do so, and was planning on spending 30% of that in Quebec (which has 23% of Canada's population) and the other 70% spread out through Canada. Inexplicably, the delivery is being held up just now, as our Federal Government is haranguing them to spend 60% of it in Quebec, and only 40% in ROC. I am not sure why it is the Federal Government's job to pick one province and go to bat for it, with a mighty big bat by the way. One would have possibly thought that spending in the ROC was acceptable too, but one would be wrong. If I lived in Winnipeg, which has been royally screwed over by Federal Governments for moving every bit of aerospace industry out of that city and into Quebec over the years, I would be asking my Conservative MP who was so happily voted in why this is happening... how strange!

[Andy6]

If I lived in Winnipeg, which has been royally screwed over by Federal Governments for moving every bit of aerospace industry out of that city and into Quebec over the years, I would be asking my Conservative MP who was so happily voted in why this is happening... how strange!

Winnipeg still has a significant aerospace industry, including a major Boeing plant, despite the federal government's efforts to build up Montreal as Canada's aerospace centre.

[Canadian Mind]

for once i support buisness making a buisness decision without goverment interference.

[malek]

There is a very strange situation happening right now with Boeing and our federal government. Canada signed a huge contract for military supplies with Boeing, and as part of the contract they required Boeing to purchase an amount equal to the cost of the project on goods in Canada. Boeing is more than happy to do so, and was planning on spending 30% of that in Quebec (which has 23% of Canada's population) and the other 70% spread out through Canada. Inexplicably, the delivery is being held up just now, as our Federal Government is haranguing them to spend 60% of it in Quebec, and only 40% in ROC. I am not sure why it is the Federal Government's job to pick one province and go to bat for it, with a mighty big bat by the way. One would have possibly thought that spending in the ROC was acceptable too, but one would be wrong. If I lived in Winnipeg, which has been royally screwed over by Federal Governments for moving every bit of aerospace industry out of that city and into Quebec over the years, I would be asking my Conservative MP who was so happily voted in why this is happening... how strange!

thats because 55% of the aerospatial industry is in quebec, its nothing unusual to have such demands. How is boeing supposed to spend in the atlantic if they have no aerospace industry?

[graupner]

I think it's pretty logic to concentrate the spendings in Quebec, since this is where most of the aerospace factories are located. This is where all the contractors are, so it will be more efficient to invest here.
And it's not true that Winnipeg was "drained" of its aerospace industry. The biggest companies like Bombardier, CAE, Pratt&Whitney, Bell Helicopters, Textron, and many others have always been in Quebec and were not forced or convinced to move in any ways.

When the government gives money for a new GM or Toyota plant, it's pretty logic this money will go to Ontario since this is where the automobile industry concentration is. When the government gives money for aircraft parts, it's supposed to go to Quebec.

[Wishblade]

Cmaname1 Pop01 Pop11 Pop21 Pop31 Pop41 Pop51 Pop61 Pop71 Pop81 Pop91 Pop2001
Toronto 306478 481801 690237 905738 1011603 1276298 1824481 2628043 2998947 3893046 4682897
Montreal 360838 586168 738210 1020018 1145282 1395400 2109509 2743208 2828349 3127242 3426350
Vancouver 33946 123453 183655 279989 377447 530728 790165 1082352 1268183 1602502 1986965
Ottawa-Hull 96104 119384 148705 170040 226290 281908 429750 602510 717978 920857 1063664
Calgary 4392 43704 63305 83761 93021 139105 279062 403319 592743 754033 951395
Edmonton 4176 31064 58851 79197 97842 173075 337568 495702 657057 839924 937845
Quebec (City) 90941 104554 124627 170915 224756 274827 357568 480502 576075 645550 682757
Winnipeg 45798 136035 194561 238281 299937 354069 475989 540262 584842 652354 671274
Hamilton 79452 111706 153567 199019 197732 259685 395189 498523 542095 599760 662401
London 37976 43600 60959 71148 91024 121516 181283 286011 283668 381522 432451
Kitchener 52594 62607 75266 89852 98720 126123 154864 226846 287801 356421 414284
St. Catharines-Niagara 62140 77592 115293 136930 158902 212599 217000 303429 304353 364552 377009
Halifax 74662 80257 97228 100204 98636 133931 183946 222637 277727 320501 359183
Victoria 28991 44498 51010 55761 75560 104303 154152 195800 233481 287897 311902
Windsor 12153 17829 44461 77359 123973 157672 193365 258643 246110 262075 307877
Oshawa 4394 7436 11940 23439 26813 41545 80918 94994 154217 240104 296298
Saskatoon 113 12004 25739 43291 43027 53268 95526 126449 154210 210023 225927
Regina 2249 30213 34432 53209 58245 71319 112141 140734 164313 191692 192800
St. John's 74104 90838 131814 154820 171859 172918
Sudbury 16103 29778 43029 58251 68548 94829 110694 155424 149923 157613 155601
Chicoutimi-Jonquiere 16872 23375 37578 55724 78881 115904 127196 133703 135172 160928 154938
Sherbrooke 18426 23211 30786 37386 42466 56711 70253 97550 117324 139194 153811
Kingston 20030 20810 24104 26180 33806 36870 63419 85877 114982 136401 146838
Trois-Rivieres 12418 19945 32992 50795 62332 72979 83659 97930 111453 136303 137507
Saint John 51759 53372 60486 61613 70927 78337 95563 106744 114048 124981 122678
Thunder Bay 11219 39496 49560 65118 66788 76197 92000 112093 121379 124427 121986
Moncton 9026 15906 23939 28199 32560 45268 57982 70274 98354 106503 117727



I just have to comment that for some reason many people in Moncton seem to think they are quickly catching up to Halifax's population and will surpass it within the next few decades. From looking at this chart I've discovered Halifax is currently growing 4x faster. Where some of them get the mentality that their god's gift to the maritimes I'll never know lol.

[Waterlooson]

you keep repeating that same story like a broken record, and I believe I told you that we went thru a similar one at about the same time but you keep ignoring it.

Under Bouchard up to 10 000 health workers (doctors and nurses) were fired or sent for early retirement, and lots of hospitals were closed. Most of them took their severance package and moved south or west.

from 2004 to 2014, 32000 public servants will retire, only half of them will be replaced, which will result in a reduction of another 20%!

From 2003 to 209: salary were held at 0%, 0%, 2%, 2%, 2% and 2% increase per year. Lower than inflation rates.

And in fiscal year 2006-2007, govt spending vs the GNP (size of govt against economy) is the lowest ever recorded in Quebec.

If you know how low the salary were in provincial govt, you would be shocked. To give you an idea, an engineer starts at 36k, the doctors and nurses are the least paid in Canada (less than atlantic provinces), ...

We need a change of philosophy in direction more than any other cuts. For example changing work regulations instead of those mass firings in the health sectors would have greatly been beneficial. Instead we now have to wait another 5 years or so before compensating doctors shortages created 15 years ago with all the new graduates.

etc etc etc I just noticed i'm off topic:P


Believe it or not, your point is not well argued since the Government of Quebec never (in its history) cut total spending by 20% across the board like Alberta did. In Alberta thousands of nurses and government workers were laid off in a very short time and provincial employees/doctors/nurses took a 5% pay decrease from what they were already getting. The welfare rolls were cut by about 50 % within a year or two. The level of sacrifice in Quebec that you have mentioned doesn't measure up to what Alberta went through.

[Taller Better]

I think it's pretty logic to concentrate the spendings in Quebec, since this is where most of the aerospace factories are located. This is where all the contractors are, so it will be more efficient to invest here.
And it's not true that Winnipeg was "drained" of its aerospace industry. The biggest companies like Bombardier, CAE, Pratt&Whitney, Bell Helicopters, Textron, and many others have always been in Quebec and were not forced or convinced to move in any ways.

When the government gives money for a new GM or Toyota plant, it's pretty logic this money will go to Ontario since this is where the automobile industry concentration is. When the government gives money for aircraft parts, it's supposed to go to Quebec.

thats because 55% of the aerospatial industry is in quebec, its nothing unusual to have such demands. How is boeing supposed to spend in the atlantic if they have no aerospace industry?

Sorry to both of you, but no it is not usual to specify to a foreign company that it must buy from one province, after they have signed a contract to buy Canadian goods. Had this been an initiative from the Province of Quebec, I would say fine, but the Military is a federal issue, not a Provincial one. So it is not logical, not even remotely, hence that is why the contract very clearly stated Canada. This is being done as a lobby effort by the Conservative government as a novel way of funnelling more money to one province, Quebec, without tax dollars being used. It is a bizarre form of strong arming for a company that is following the contract it signed to a T, but it is a novel way to get some more votes in Quebec.

Also, Graupner, I lived in Winnipeg when most of the aerospace industry was "influenced" to move to Quebec by the Feds (much like the influencing going on now). Believe me it created ill will, but it was way before your time, but people remember such things. Winnipeg is a small city and had very little clout.

[vid]

Quebec doesn't even support the military. And they're getting money from something related to it?

[someone123]

I just have to comment that for some reason many people in Moncton seem to think they are quickly catching up to Halifax's population and will surpass it within the next few decades. From looking at this chart I've discovered Halifax is currently growing 4x faster. Where some of them get the mentality that their god's gift to the maritimes I'll never know lol.

The Moncton boosterism is pretty silly. At the end of the day I guess there is just a lot of envy and misunderstanding. I find it odd how people in Moncton assume that any new developments there put them ahead of Halifax (which they are obsessed with). If they get a new flight, their airport is about to become #1 in the Maritimes. If they get a new WalMart, Moncton is the new retail mecca. If they get a new apartment building, Moncton is the new boom town.

It's good that Moncton is doing well but it still basically looks more like a town than a city and it is not a very sophisticated place.

[Only The Lonely..]

Believe me it created ill will, but it was way before your time, but people remember such things. Winnipeg is a small city and had very little clout.


You said it very well..

The truth is people have never forgotten the CF-18 contract being given to Bombardier to appease Quebec, despite the fact that a Winnipeg consortium made a substantially lower bid.

The whole of the Reform party and Western alienation was born out of the ashes of the CF 18 scandal.

So you have to ask yourself, was pissing off one half of the country to please the other really worth it in the end?

Winnipeg has a very strong Aerospace component to our economy. Bristol, Boeing, and Standard Aero all have a significant presence in the city. The Boeing composite manufacturing facility is the largest in North America.

In addition, Air Canada has a large maintenance facility (Air Canada Technical Services) that even occasionally services NorthWest aircraft.

[Taller Better]

Around the same time the Federal Government quietly passed a bill requiring, in perpetuity, that 40% of all dairy products in Canada must be produced in Quebec. Have you ever heard of a country in the free world making such a law? Mr. Harper, take note. There are oodles of paths you can take in your quest to raise your proportion of Quebec voters above 15% in the polls. They say you can't buy love, but I think that is bullcrap. All you need is taxdollars.

[vid]

And Quebec isn't even thankful for it. Doesn't even know it happened.

[Only The Lonely..]

My point is, never underestimate the length Federalists will go to please Quebec.

[malek]

Sorry to both of you, but no it is not usual to specify to a foreign company that it must buy from one province, after they have signed a contract to buy Canadian goods. Had this been an initiative from the Province of Quebec, I would say fine, but the Military is a federal issue, not a Provincial one. So it is not logical, not even remotely, hence that is why the contract very clearly stated Canada. This is being done as a lobby effort by the Conservative government as a novel way of funnelling more money to one province, Quebec, without tax dollars being used. It is a bizarre form of strong arming for a company that is following the contract it signed to a T, but it is a novel way to get some more votes in Quebec.

Also, Graupner, I lived in Winnipeg when most of the aerospace industry was "influenced" to move to Quebec by the Feds (much like the influencing going on now). Believe me it created ill will, but it was way before your time, but people remember such things. Winnipeg is a small city and had very little clout.

stop crying, i thought you were smarter than that. When GM got the contract for ACV some years ago, the spinoffs were mostly in ontario because of their auto industry.

Again, a them against us way of seeing them, no wonder we don't feel welcome anymore.

Its ok to give 70% of the deal to Winnipeg even tho the province represents less than 10% of the population and does not come to the Quebec's aerospace's toenail.

The fact is that Boeing doesn't want to invest in a market where one of their competitor is very well present i.e. Bombardier.

And Taller, it shows you never heard of military contracts, client countries are usually even more heavy handed about the contracts they award.

[malek]

Around the same time the Federal Government quietly passed a bill requiring, in perpetuity, that 40% of all dairy products in Canada must be produced in Quebec. Have you ever heard of a country in the free world making such a law? Mr. Harper, take note. There are oodles of paths you can take in your quest to raise your proportion of Quebec voters above 15% in the polls. They say you can't buy love, but I think that is bullcrap. All you need is taxdollars.

dairy production is a big industry in Quebec, and Quebec has a bigger share of the Canadian market than even Ontario at 40% of the Canadian market. If the conservatives want to protect our market share, well good for us I guess.

http://www.dairyinfo.gc.ca/pdf/dairy_cows_by_prov.pdf

[someone123]

Well, the point is that Quebec's market share was created by the government. Quebec's dairy industry depends on both direct subsidy and quotas and tariffs to keep people from buying higher quality products from, say, Italy or France.

http://www.agr.gc.ca/itpd-dpci/english/country/cheese.htm

The quota apparently ensures that Canadians only have access to roughly 600 grams per year of imported cheese each before the higher prices kick in and they have to pay about 250% more. Of course, the restricted supply would also encourage higher prices even before the limit is reached.

[Jets4Life]

you may be for or against something, but calling it silly just shows how immature you are.

Scores of people on both sides have clashed for generations and are still but the only word you found was "silly".

You are silly.

Well I guess you sure showed us how much more mature you are with that reply. :rolleyes:

[malek]

Well I guess you sure showed us how much more mature you are with that reply. :rolleyes:

Lets GO JETS!:haha:

[renthefinn]

Let's go Expo's! I stopped paying attention to baseball after they left. Let's go Jet's too, they have more hope than the Expos of returning!

[Taller Better]

dairy production is a big industry in Quebec, and Quebec has a bigger share of the Canadian market than even Ontario at 40% of the Canadian market. If the conservatives want to protect our market share, well good for us I guess.

http://www.dairyinfo.gc.ca/pdf/dairy_cows_by_prov.pdf

Well of course Quebec has a bigger share. That is the law. No brainer malek. Totally weak comeback.
As for the military contract, it is pointless discussing it with you as you do not understand the federal military contract
that was signed with Boeing. Would be a waste of my time.

"no wonder we don't feel welcome anymore."
"stop crying"

that is so sad. Really you are not at your best today.

[trueviking]

If I lived in Winnipeg, which has been royally screwed over by Federal Governments for moving every bit of aerospace industry out of that city and into Quebec over the years, I would be asking my Conservative MP who was so happily voted in why this is happening... how strange!

were still hanging on...but i do understand your point, and i agree.

The Winnipeg Region is home to the largest aerospace industry in Western Canada, is the third largest provider of aerospace goods and services in the country, has the world’s largest privately owned facility for the repair and overhaul of turbine engines and Canada’s only solid rocket propellant manufacturing plant. As one of the fastest growing industries in the province, the aerospace industry’s primary activities are repair maintenance and overhaul.

Manitoba’s aerospace industry boasts revenues in excess of $1 billion annually and directly employs over 4,000 people.


http://www.destinationwinnipeg.ca/work_db_ss_a.php

[trueviking]

Let's go Expo's! I stopped paying attention to baseball after they left. Let's go Jet's too, they have more hope than the Expos of returning!

the last full inning of baseball i watched, i was sitting behind home plate in shea stadium watching the expos last game.....the last period of hockey that i actually cared about, i was sitting in the upper deck at the winnipeg arena watching the jets lose to the red wings in their last game.

i watch a lot of english soccer now :(

[graupner]

were still hanging on...but i do understand your point, and i agree.

The Winnipeg Region is home to the ... Canada’s only solid rocket propellant manufacturing plant.


http://www.destinationwinnipeg.ca/work_db_ss_a.php


That's not true anymore since CIL Varennes, division of an american company but A QUEBEC-established company founded by a MONTREAL bussinessman 80 years ago, recently started producing some too.
It's so funny to hear you guys complaining.

http://www.fjab.qc.ca/fr/content/jab/photos/1959_1964/JAvion02.jpg
The man who started it all, Joseph-Armand Bombardier ( a QUEBECER, never forced to move orcreate in Quebec), created his first airplanes out of his own hands, for a private postal company in Quebec city about 70 years ago. 0 federal money was invested in this adventure. The man used his own money ( made with another of his invention, the Ski-Doo) to build the first manufacturing facilities and train all the workers for such a specialised production. The airplane were very reliable and cost-effective, so it fastly became a major success. I don't see up to this point how Winnipeg got raped. And that's really how Quebec established itself as the dominant player, with a new, great idea. That's how it all started, and after this several aerospace companies, aware of the success of Canadair (then the division of Bombardier) forecasting the possible contracts from Bombardier to manufacture parts, established themselves in Quebec. Nothing more.

I keep repeating myself, but I can't understand how we "stole" you aerospace industry since most of our biggest aerospace companies were founded by QUEBECERS entrepeneurs and have ALWAYS been established here ( Bombardier, Pratt&Whitney, CAE (it was in Toronto before but recently moved its headquarter in Montreal) , Heroux-Devtek,SNC-Lavalin, Rolls-Royce Canada). Most of these quebec creators came with new, innovative and cost-effective ideas, and that's the only reason why the aerospace industry is today concentrated here. Along with the major companies, smaller ones who manufacture smaller parts came along for logical reasons.
As for the CF-18 contract, I've never heard of it. I tought F-18s were assembled in the USA anyway?

Today, I totally agree that some big federal money is drained in Quebec because of this , but what about Boeing in the US? Airbus in Europe?? Embraer in Brazil??? The truth is that this industry is heavily subsidized everywhere in the world and that's how it works, happy or not.

What would have prevented Winnipeg entrepeneurs and scientists to promote their ideas and creations if they were so revolutionnary? Your biggest aerospace employer is foreign ( Boeing) and no major provincial companies from Manitoba have discovered major breaktroughs in aerospace technologies. That's how I see things unfortunately.
Honestly, I doubt the federal government would had turned down ideas from Winnipeg's creators simply because it wouldn't be good for their quebec's image.I rather think that Winnipeg was never such a major industrial pole on a continental scale, it maybe was a mere western canada regional hub at some point. Even more compared to Montreal which was for many decades the industrial heart of our country and one of the top-5 biggest in North America along with Detroit and Philly.

[PhilippeMtl]

Graup'snaped

[Greco Roman]

This is turning into an east vs west debate, and because Wpg. is involved, I have to stick with the west :haha:

[Waterlooson]

That's not true anymore since CIL Varennes, division of an american company but A QUEBEC-established company founded by a MONTREAL bussinessman 80 years ago, recently started producing some too.
It's so funny to hear you guys complaining.

http://www.fjab.qc.ca/fr/content/jab/photos/1959_1964/JAvion02.jpg
The man who started it all, Joseph-Armand Bombardier ( a QUEBECER, never forced to move orcreate in Quebec), created his first airplanes out of his own hands, for a private postal company in Quebec city about 70 years ago. 0 federal money was invested in this adventure. The man used his own money ( made with another of his invention, the Ski-Doo) to build the first manufacturing facilities and train all the workers for such a specialised production. The airplane were very reliable and cost-effective, so it fastly became a major success. I don't see up to this point how Winnipeg got raped. And that's really how Quebec established itself as the dominant player, with a new, great idea. That's how it all started, and after this several aerospace companies, aware of the success of Canadair (then the division of Bombardier) forecasting the possible contracts from Bombardier to manufacture parts, established themselves in Quebec. Nothing more.

I keep repeating myself, but I can't understand how we "stole" you aerospace industry since most of our biggest aerospace companies were founded by QUEBECERS entrepeneurs and have ALWAYS been established here ( Bombardier, Pratt&Whitney, CAE (it was in Toronto before but recently moved its headquarter in Montreal) , Heroux-Devtek,SNC-Lavalin, Rolls-Royce Canada). Most of these quebec creators came with new, innovative and cost-effective ideas, and that's the only reason why the aerospace industry is today concentrated here. Along with the major companies, smaller ones who manufacture smaller parts came along for logical reasons.
As for the CF-18 contract, I've never heard of it. I tought F-18s were assembled in the USA anyway?

Today, I totally agree that some big federal money is drained in Quebec because of this , but what about Boeing in the US? Airbus in Europe?? Embraer in Brazil??? The truth is that this industry is heavily subsidized everywhere in the world and that's how it works, happy or not.

What would have prevented Winnipeg entrepeneurs and scientists to promote their ideas and creations if they were so revolutionnary? Your biggest aerospace employer is foreign ( Boeing) and no major provincial companies from Manitoba have discovered major breaktroughs in aerospace technologies. That's how I see things unfortunately.
Honestly, I doubt the federal government would had turned down ideas from Winnipeg's creators simply because it wouldn't be good for their quebec's image.I rather think that Winnipeg was never such a major industrial pole on a continental scale, it maybe was a mere western canada regional hub at some point. Even more compared to Montreal which was for many decades the industrial heart of our country and one of the top-5 biggest in North America along with Detroit and Philly.

What happened with the CF-18 contract was that Winnipeg had it in the bag.... then due entirely to political interference by the Mulroney government, the contract was given to a Quebec company.

I would think that Bombarier has recieved more in federal government money and subsidies than some provinces.