Lamenting the decline of the car

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

So I was trying to understand how Tesla actually implements this. And I found a really interesting presentation on their agile development. Well worth the watch. The presenter also explains how they track and adjust for maintainability. As an aerospace engineer, this is not actually that foreign an idea to me. We call them PIPs in the aero world (Performance Improvement Package). Our cycle, isn't as fast as this though.

Sure, and that makes sense. I'm sure aerospace does extensive validation and also batches improvements for a specific line number.

The rate at which Tesla does it doesn't make sense though. Maybe I'm old-school, but actually validating any change takes some time.

As in - "Is this an actual improvement?", "Does it compromise other functions or long-term durability?", "What other problems will this change potentially produce?" These are big QA/QC questions.

If they're changing dozens of things over the span of weeks, I don't see how they get enough data to validate any of it. If I keep changing the flavours of Jello I shoot at the wall, odds are some is going to stick, but I don't use that to justify grape Jello as a better adhesive material.

The closes industry I can think of is software, but even they have a rollout pattern and QA/QC process to make sure it works. It's why out-of-cycle patches are only done in extreme cases.

Without a rigorous testing regimen and data feedback (not all of which can be measured electronically - you actually need someone to examine things) I don't have much faith in the process.

I've never liked 'Fail quickly and often' as a mantra. I prefer: 'Think and analyze it, give a new idea a try, observe its successes or failures and learn from it'. It's not as catchy, but the 'fail quickly and often' is a recipe for a chaotic whirlwind of disaster in the wrong type.

[OldDartmouthMark]

This article is interesting, not so much for the server outage, but for the comment that owners are not able to replace broken key fobs? Like many articles these days, this one appears to be driven by social media posts, so it's not clear if this is actually a problem or just typical social media misinformation.

To the Tesla owners here: Do they not have service centres where you can order a replacement key fob (or other such incidentals)? I checked their Canadian website, and they do have service centres in some areas of Canada (closest one to NS is in Quebec), but not having seen one in person, I'm not sure if they are like a traditional dealership with a parts department and service bays. What's the deal?

https://www.techtimes.com/articles/2...rver-error.htm

It is worth noting that such a server issue left its owners unable to start or open their EVs as some Tesla models no longer sport the "Phone Key" feature. Thus, they are forced to use the app to unlock their cars.

Some reports also claim that some Tesla owners could only resort to the app of the EV giant as the fob keys of their cars have long been broken.

One of them wrote on the Teslamotorsclub forum to claim that Tesla's website does not offer any replacement for the broken fob keys. Hence, he only uses the app to open his broken EV.

Over and above that, am I old fashioned to think that it's a bad idea to link the functionality of a vehicle to the internet?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

This article is interesting, not so much for the server outage, but for the comment that owners are not able to replace broken key fobs? Like many articles these days, this one appears to be driven by social media posts, so it's not clear if this is actually a problem or just typical social media misinformation.

There's some definite misinformation here. Here's the way the car works in the absence of keys:

1. You have an NFC credit card device linked to your car. Like a transit card. I touch this to an area on my car and it unlocks. Functionally this is like a key.

2. You can link 1 or more phones to your car via bluetooth. When they are in proximity to the car it will unlock when you grab a handle. It will also come out of sleep, mirrors open, etc. When you leave proximity, the car auto locks (and a quick horn beep).

3. You can "remote start" the car. Your friend is standing beside your car with no keycard or phone, and needs to drive it. I can do this from anywhere I have a cell connection, and the car is also connected.

4. Tesla does sell a fob that functions similarly to #2 if you have an old phone that doesn't support the right BT level. This is rare but some people bought them.

1 and 2 work without Tesla's server infrastructure. They have to. I park in a deep parkade with no cell service.

My family uses #2 all the time. It works 99% of the time now, my wife had some issues on her older phone a few years ago but not anymore. I also carry the credit card in my wallet just in case. A dead phone battery would be a problem.

Walking up to a car and just walking away when you're done is so nice. Everything else feels primitive now.

There's all kinds of remote features accessible to you when your phone and the car are online, that relies on Tesla servers, but none of this is related to basic driving ability.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Thank you, Warren. That is much more as I'd expect it to be as there are many areas with poor or no cell coverage.

Lots of bad info out there!!

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Thank you, Warren. That is much more as I'd expect it to be as there are many areas with poor or no cell coverage.

Lots of bad info out there!!

It does suck that my parkade is out of cell coverage though. Being able to pre-heat, cool, etc is really nice in bad weather. At least the parkade is relatively climate controlled anyway.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Sure, and that makes sense. I'm sure aerospace does extensive validation and also batches improvements for a specific line number.

The rate at which Tesla does it doesn't make sense though. Maybe I'm old-school, but actually validating any change takes some time.

If I understand the presentation correctly, they do actually test and validate their ideas, and then build it in. What they don't have at Tesla, is hard changeover points in their production. They simply ramp in a new design as they get supply.

I think there's probably an optimum point between what Tesla does and what the legacy OEMs do, where they take years to make production changes.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

It does suck that my parkade is out of cell coverage though. Being able to pre-heat, cool, etc is really nice in bad weather. At least the parkade is relatively climate controlled anyway.

A climate controlled parkade is a nice thing to have. Your car shouldn't have too much work to do to reach a good comfort level anyhow. Do you ever notice any severe decrease in range due to blasting the heat or air conditioning, or are these relatively small draws on the battery?

[urbandreamer]

Is your Tesla reliable? https://insideevs.com/news/549130/co...ity-poor-2021/

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

A climate controlled parkade is a nice thing to have. Your car shouldn't have too much work to do to reach a good comfort level anyhow. Do you ever notice any severe decrease in range due to blasting the heat or air conditioning, or are these relatively small draws on the battery?

"Climate controlled" is a loose term. It keeps things 10C above the outside temp in the winter and 10C below in the summer. It's not actually fed AC and/or heat, just from the temp of the ground 40ft below that doesn't change so much.

Severe decrease? No. But bear in mind I'm in Vancouver. AC has no real impact on the battery, funny enough. The resistance heat will drain it though. The car will also heat the battery if it deems that important to provide power and reduce strain on the pack itself. Tesla recommends more use of the seat heating if you're concerned about range loss.

Personally I haven't seen range loss below about 20%. Parking outside in -25C, EV range seems to drop close to 50% across all brands. If the battery and car starts warm, the range is similar in any temp.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

"Climate controlled" is a loose term. It keeps things 10C above the outside temp in the winter and 10C below in the summer. It's not actually fed AC and/or heat, just from the temp of the ground 40ft below that doesn't change so much.

Severe decrease? No. But bear in mind I'm in Vancouver. AC has no real impact on the battery, funny enough. The resistance heat will drain it though. The car will also heat the battery if it deems that important to provide power and reduce strain on the pack itself. Tesla recommends more use of the seat heating if you're concerned about range loss.

Personally I haven't seen range loss below about 20%. Parking outside in -25C, EV range seems to drop close to 50% across all brands. If the battery and car starts warm, the range is similar in any temp.

Thanks for that. I'm guessing the resistance heating is to bring up the temp quickly, or to heat when the temps are below the efficient range for the heat pump (I'm recalling that Teslas use a heat pump for heating/cooling?), so for most situations climate control is probably not a huge drain, though I see it being a problem for areas that regularly see winter temps of -20 and below.

Hopefully with future battery tech improvements this problem will go away.

One nice thing about the resistance heating is how quickly it heats. I had the opportunity of driving a PHEV for a while a few years back and I really came to appreciate how I would get heat immediately on those cold winter mornings, whereas the equivalent ICE vehicle wouldn't actually start to heat the car until about 10 minutes into the journey, so if you happen to not have a remote start (which I tend to not use anyhow due to increasing carbon output for the sake of convenience) you always started the morning freezing your appendages off (not to mention scraping ice off the glass) for several minutes beforehand. I could see using the Tesla pre-heat function to get your car toasty warm and de-iced while it's still on the charger, so you wouldn't lose appreciable range for morning commutes in cold weather. (and afternoon if your workplace happened to have charging stations).

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Thanks for that. I'm guessing the resistance heating is to bring up the temp quickly, or to heat when the temps are below the efficient range for the heat pump (I'm recalling that Teslas use a heat pump for heating/cooling?), so for most situations climate control is probably not a huge drain, though I see it being a problem for areas that regularly see winter temps of -20 and below.

Hopefully with future battery tech improvements this problem will go away.

One nice thing about the resistance heating is how quickly it heats. I had the opportunity of driving a PHEV for a while a few years back and I really came to appreciate how I would get heat immediately on those cold winter mornings, whereas the equivalent ICE vehicle wouldn't actually start to heat the car until about 10 minutes into the journey, so if you happen to not have a remote start (which I tend to not use anyhow due to increasing carbon output for the sake of convenience) you always started the morning freezing your appendages off (not to mention scraping ice off the glass) for several minutes beforehand. I could see using the Tesla pre-heat function to get your car toasty warm and de-iced while it's still on the charger, so you wouldn't lose appreciable range for morning commutes in cold weather. (and afternoon if your workplace happened to have charging stations).

Oh yeah, I have a pre-heat pump model, so things would be a bit better with the heat pump.

And yes, the heat is immediate. No waiting for the engine to warm, it will blast you with hot air in the face right away. The battery drain is an issue, but the actual cost of the electricity to heat is minimal, and well worth the comfort level.

You can pre-heat/cool with the app too. Nothing like getting into a pre-cooled car on a hot summer day rather than burning yourself on the seat.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Is your Tesla reliable? https://insideevs.com/news/549130/co...ity-poor-2021/

Usually, yes. I think they get poor scores due to poor production quality due to end of quarter production rushes, aka production hell. Usually cosmetic stuff like ill fitting panels, missing emblems, nothing that actually affects the performance of the car. But once those issues are identified and fixed by Tesla (they'll do it for free since its under warranty and give you some Uber/Lyft credit while they make the repairs), should be smooth sailing from there on out. My friend has a checklist of stuff to check upon accepting delivery.

[Truenorth00]

I am really curious about how much quality will improve with the Berlin plant. Musk has claimed they'll get precision down to microns from that plant.

I'm always been surprised at how much the Fremont plant sucks at this stuff. Given that he owns an aerospace company down the road (figuratively) that should know plenty about metrology.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I am really curious about how much quality will improve with the Berlin plant. Musk has claimed they'll get precision down to microns from that plant.

I'm always been surprised at how much the Fremont plant sucks at this stuff. Given that he owns an aerospace company down the road (figuratively) that should know plenty about metrology.

It's about quantity, not quality, at least so far.

The plant in China is far better for quality control apparently. Hopefully Berlin and Texas will be the same.

[urbandreamer]

Finally a Tesla I could drive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-6kHjF1U1E

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Finally a Tesla I could drive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-6kHjF1U1E

Finally a Tesla with character.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Finally a Tesla I could drive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-6kHjF1U1E

Rich Rebuilds is awesome.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Love it!

[Truenorth00]

I don't buy this video entirely. But curious what people think? Are SUVs just security blankets for suburbanites?

• Video Link

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I don't buy this video entirely. But curious what people think? Are SUVs just security blankets for suburbanites?

No.

I don’t like SUVs, but I am not going to agree that they’re security blankets.

Low slung cars were the anomaly with respect to human posture. Cars of the 1930s and 1940s were pretty upright and formal. Cars started getting lower in the 1950s. Look at someone larger (or older) getting into and out a sedan; they have to hunch over and bend. It is more noticeable in the era where cars were very low (the 1970s to 1990s). In a SUV, they just slide sideways on entry/exit.

People like the higher seating position they offer because it is less work to see, especially if one is short. This is all the more acute in the era of larger vehicles.

The psychology aspect is less important IMO. People ascribe all sorts of weird psychology to things that is rather questionable. Sometimes, people respond to a concept unknowingly that just works and feels better.