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  #6601  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2019, 1:51 PM
vblack vblack is offline
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Originally Posted by Tykendo View Post
Very nice clear camera view from, let me guess, the top of one of the office buildings near the Rugby stadium in Glendale.

Yep.


https://42floors.com/us/co/denver/41...ississippi-ave


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Love that view with the Indian Peaks ( Longs and Meeker too) in the distance. Moved back to my native Oregon, but i will always have love in my heart for this beautiful city.

Winter morning views can be spectacular. I'll have to get some captures.
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  #6602  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2019, 5:34 PM
laniroj laniroj is offline
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...Here's holding out hope that one of the local unicorns goes from a $1B cap to a $100B cap.
My personal take is that we don't have the well heeled developers that big cities have to do the big super-talls (or generally tall development) and we have, thus far, lacked the vanity projects of larger corporations because we generally lack large corporations able to do that and the ones we do have choose to stay in DTC or SE metro. Though we do have the institutional capital interested in that sort of large project in Denver, we don't have a qualified developer to get it to the point of capital being interested - ie millions of dollars of at-risk pre-development capital from a local developer team.

DaVita could have anchored a super-tall in Denver, but their leadership failed to accommodate for the growth they've experienced; thus no larger building. VF Corp could have anchored a supertall, but they chose speed over vanity (and the timing just so worked out that the old Gates building was 100% vacant and perfectly aligned with VF's initial hiring needs. Hines is an example of a well heeled developer and they did get a fairly significant, modestly tall, building completed (though still roughly half the square footage of projects in the 1980's and comparable office skyscrapers in other coastal cities happening this cycle). Also, unicorns don't commission supertalls, established giants who used to be unicorns 10 years ago do.
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  #6603  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2019, 6:18 PM
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Originally Posted by BG918 View Post
I had heard the Kimpton will be on the west side of 25, adjacent to the new office building U/C.
The plot thickens!

Stonebridge owns the existing Extended Stay America and was recently issued demolition permits to be replaced by replacement.
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  #6604  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2019, 7:00 PM
laniroj laniroj is offline
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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
[B]...
While I didn't set a high bar for grading I've gotta say that Denver is getting a lot of bang for their light and commuter rail buck with respect to TOD.
...and yet our transit numbers continue retreating because RTD has raised prices so high we're the most expensive large transit agency in America! So really, we've gotten tax dollars bang for our buck but we haven't gotten any bang for the buck in that we're not taking cars off the road!
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  #6605  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2019, 7:26 PM
mhays mhays is offline
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Originally Posted by laniroj View Post
My personal take is that we don't have the well heeled developers that big cities have to do the big super-talls (or generally tall development) and we have, thus far, lacked the vanity projects of larger corporations because we generally lack large corporations able to do that and the ones we do have choose to stay in DTC or SE metro. Though we do have the institutional capital interested in that sort of large project in Denver, we don't have a qualified developer to get it to the point of capital being interested - ie millions of dollars of at-risk pre-development capital from a local developer team.

DaVita could have anchored a super-tall in Denver, but their leadership failed to accommodate for the growth they've experienced; thus no larger building. VF Corp could have anchored a supertall, but they chose speed over vanity (and the timing just so worked out that the old Gates building was 100% vacant and perfectly aligned with VF's initial hiring needs. Hines is an example of a well heeled developer and they did get a fairly significant, modestly tall, building completed (though still roughly half the square footage of projects in the 1980's and comparable office skyscrapers in other coastal cities happening this cycle). Also, unicorns don't commission supertalls, established giants who used to be unicorns 10 years ago do.
If the economic case was compelling, developers would come. Several have poked at Denver.

As for established giants building supertalls, what's an example? Comcast and Salesforce are in cities with several times Denver's land prices and tiny parking ratios...what's an example outside of that sort of city?
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  #6606  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2019, 8:39 PM
Denvergotback Denvergotback is offline
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
If the economic case was compelling, developers would come. Several have poked at Denver.

As for established giants building supertalls, what's an example? Comcast and Salesforce are in cities with several times Denver's land prices and tiny parking ratios...what's an example outside of that sort of city?
Oklahoma City

Honestly, I feel even coastal (outside of a few) aren't even building supertalls when it comes to corporal vanity... Most are being built due to land/price restrictions. Cities like Houston and Boston, and so many others just aren't building them, and a lot of cities that are building them are strictly because of lack of land. Denvers are on the shorter side overall because (in my opinion) there is just too much land and parking lots available to really justify 50+ story buildings... Sad, but true... but holy crap has Denver taken a huge urban jump just by adding infill and a few high-rises
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  #6607  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2019, 8:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Denvergotback View Post
Oklahoma City

Honestly, I feel even coastal (outside of a few) aren't even building supertalls when it comes to corporal vanity... Most are being built due to land/price restrictions. Cities like Houston and Boston, and so many others just aren't building them, and a lot of cities that are building them are strictly because of lack of land. Denvers are on the shorter side overall because (in my opinion) there is just too much land and parking lots available to really justify 50+ story buildings... Sad, but true... but holy crap has Denver taken a huge urban jump just by adding infill and a few high-rises
And now that same company in OKC (Devon) has multiple empty floors. Not the best example to follow.

Outside of NYC and Chicago you have the condo boom in Miami which has added numerous highrises along with several in Austin and Seattle. I think Denver could support a few more Spires in the 30-40 story range in and around downtown.
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  #6608  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2019, 8:59 PM
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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
The plot thickens!

Stonebridge owns the existing Extended Stay America and was recently issued demolition permits to be replaced by replacement.
Two separate projects. The Extended Stay America between Quebec and Olive and the proposed Kimpton between Newport and Olive on Chenango. There is also a highrise apartment tower proposed for the other half of the block on Newport.
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  #6609  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2019, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by BG918 View Post
Two separate projects. The Extended Stay America between Quebec and Olive and the proposed Kimpton between Newport and Olive on Chenango. There is also a highrise apartment tower proposed for the other half of the block on Newport.
So there's TWO luxury hotels planed: a 20 story (the Kimpton) and an 18 story (where the Extended Stay is now) within 2 blocks of each other:


The Extended Stay America hotel is owned by local hotelier Stonebridge Cos., which earlier this year successfully approached Denver City Council for the rezoning needed to build a much larger hotel on the site.

Stonebridge’s rezoning request was opposed by master planner Front Range on the grounds that a new hotel would benefit from infrastructure funded by other developers and property owners, according to The Denver Post.

City records show Stonebridge has submitted an early-stage development proposal for an 18-story hotel at the Extended Stay America site, and was issued demolition permits for the existing structures this month.


https://businessden.com/2019/08/26/2...eview-station/

Sounds like there's a race to get shovels in the ground. I doubt that both would get built, but who knows. This would be a good location for a Four Seasons-like condo/hotel combo structure (like the one downtown).
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  #6610  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2019, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by CherryCreek View Post
Sounds like there's a race to get shovels in the ground. I doubt that both would get built, but who knows.
What I wondered as well... That the Kimpton developers have a thin track record was partly a concern.

That said there's several sites in Scottsdale where Marriott branded hotels are built right next to each other; maybe an Hampton Inn & Suites plus a lower priced sibling.


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Originally Posted by laniroj View Post
...and yet our transit numbers continue retreating because RTD has raised prices so high we're the most expensive large transit agency in America! So really, we've gotten tax dollars bang for our buck but we haven't gotten any bang for the buck in that we're not taking cars off the road!
Any idea how many riders pay the retail price as opposed to one of several discounted options?

Interestingly, bus ridership had been trending down since 2014 until the 1st quarter of this year when it was up by 11% so apparently raising rates was magical?
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  #6611  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2019, 11:01 PM
laniroj laniroj is offline
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
If the economic case was compelling, developers would come. Several have poked at Denver.

As for established giants building supertalls, what's an example? Comcast and Salesforce are in cities with several times Denver's land prices and tiny parking ratios...what's an example outside of that sort of city?
Several well heeled developers have built and are building in Denver, just at smaller scales than other places despite Denver outperforming coastal cities (from a RE return standpoint for nearly a decade). Why Denver always gets smaller, I don't have a good explanation other than the remaining perceived fear that we have a boom and bust economy.

As for giants building supertalls, the entire City of Charlotte comes to mind with all the banks that built vanity towers in their lifeless downtown, Chicago is getting quite a few new ones in this cycle (BofA Tower is a gem!), Los Angeles' Wilshire Grand anchored by a giant, pretty much everything in NYC has a giant behind it...even Atlanta has a 53 story tower proposed (mainly residential) with several hundred thousand sf of office in it - that's how Denver needs to be getting supertalls - mixed-use towers. Giants also build campuses or occupy suburbia. Charles Schwab, Ball, Newmont, Western Union - these are all companies who could have been leveraged to build supertalls in Downtown Denver, but instead chose mediocre suburban office space not because the lease rates are drastically cheaper but because that's where their employees want to work (RE occupancy cost for companies of those sizes is minuscule and $10/sf or more isn't going to influence a decision such as corporate headquarters relocation. I am of firm belief that Denver doesn't get supertalls because DTC and SE can still attract those companies to locations 2 miles from their executives Cherry Hills homes and all their employees making $85k+/year. DTC is getting close to full so that's positive, but now with Lone Tree v2.0....
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  #6612  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by laniroj View Post
Several well heeled developers have built and are building in Denver, just at smaller scales than other places despite Denver outperforming coastal cities (from a RE return standpoint for nearly a decade). Why Denver always gets smaller, I don't have a good explanation other than the remaining perceived fear that we have a boom and bust economy.
Western Union is a mediocre company. Newmont Mining retained Goldcorp's former corporate offices when they merged. Ball is happy in Boulder. Charles Schwab's presence in Denver is no bigger than several other cities like Phoenix, Dallas and Austin. Denver simply doesn't have the bell cows of other cities. Chicago is an HQ magnet. L.A. is like a whole tier higher than Denver.

It's simple. The hot ticket for Denver downtown has been LoDo and the Denver Union Station neighborhood where super talls couldn't be built. Add 15th street office infill and even along Platte Street have been the places to be. New office buildings like 1401 Lawrence and 1800 Larimer were in that part of downtown as well. But I'm totally happy with 1144 15th street.

Now tenants prefer RiNo so for now nobody cares about building a super tall.
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  #6613  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 3:19 AM
mhays mhays is offline
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Originally Posted by laniroj View Post
Several well heeled developers have built and are building in Denver, just at smaller scales than other places despite Denver outperforming coastal cities (from a RE return standpoint for nearly a decade). Why Denver always gets smaller, I don't have a good explanation other than the remaining perceived fear that we have a boom and bust economy.

As for giants building supertalls, the entire City of Charlotte comes to mind with all the banks that built vanity towers in their lifeless downtown, Chicago is getting quite a few new ones in this cycle (BofA Tower is a gem!), Los Angeles' Wilshire Grand anchored by a giant, pretty much everything in NYC has a giant behind it...even Atlanta has a 53 story tower proposed (mainly residential) with several hundred thousand sf of office in it - that's how Denver needs to be getting supertalls - mixed-use towers. Giants also build campuses or occupy suburbia. Charles Schwab, Ball, Newmont, Western Union - these are all companies who could have been leveraged to build supertalls in Downtown Denver, but instead chose mediocre suburban office space not because the lease rates are drastically cheaper but because that's where their employees want to work (RE occupancy cost for companies of those sizes is minuscule and $10/sf or more isn't going to influence a decision such as corporate headquarters relocation. I am of firm belief that Denver doesn't get supertalls because DTC and SE can still attract those companies to locations 2 miles from their executives Cherry Hills homes and all their employees making $85k+/year. DTC is getting close to full so that's positive, but now with Lone Tree v2.0....
Of all that, only Wilshire Grand is arguably a supertall, and it's due to a spire.

I don't know the reasons why those companies chose the suburbs, but generally companies choose their locations more for employee recruitment, being among similar companies, etc. A private company might locate near the boss pretty often, but a public one will generally make a supportable decision.

You're not considering the downsides of an office leasing in a supertall...starting with three years of lead time typically, including a lot of risk about whether the building will go forward or not until it's actually happening. Plus the added cost, which can be quite a bit more than $10/mo.

Mixed-use is certainly easier. Denver's code favors mixed-use. But that brings another set of challenges...a larger percentage of the building devoted to multiple elevator banks, more stairs, more lobbies, potentially separate parking, and so on. It's worth it only when the code favors it, and generally when the uses are symbiotic, like condos over a hotel having access to hotel services.

It does really come down to economics. Large, well-located sites are relatively cheap in Denver. Most corporate office tenants will go with something stubby in that scenario. Same with residential and hotel uses outside the peak locations in a handful of cities...the list gets very narrow when you're talking 1,000' tall buildings.
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  #6614  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 3:40 AM
Tykendo Tykendo is offline
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Originally Posted by Mtnboi303 View Post
The new Denver Skyline

Where's the Pepsi Center? Surrounded like MSG in NYC?
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  #6615  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 4:43 AM
trubador trubador is offline
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Originally Posted by Denvergotback View Post
Oklahoma City

Honestly, I feel even coastal (outside of a few) aren't even building supertalls when it comes to corporal vanity... Most are being built due to land/price restrictions. Cities like Houston and Boston, and so many others just aren't building them, and a lot of cities that are building them are strictly because of lack of land. Denvers are on the shorter side overall because (in my opinion) there is just too much land and parking lots available to really justify 50+ story buildings... Sad, but true... but holy crap has Denver taken a huge urban jump just by adding infill and a few high-rises
Boston may not be getting any supertalls, but their megatall list is impressive.

Four Seasons - completed 2019 - 61-story, 742-foot tower
Millennium Tower - completed 2016 - 60 story, 685-foot tower
Winthrop Square Garage - under construction - 52 floors, 690 foot tower

Plus probably a half dozen more projects between 400 and 600 feet. That city builds 12 story buildings like we put up 5 story apartments in Denver. The construction there is incredible. They have had dozens of buildings like 1144 15th built there during this cycle.
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  #6616  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 4:44 PM
laniroj laniroj is offline
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Originally Posted by Denvergotback View Post
Oklahoma City

Honestly, I feel even coastal (outside of a few) aren't even building supertalls when it comes to corporal vanity... Most are being built due to land/price restrictions. Cities like Houston and Boston, and so many others just aren't building them, and a lot of cities that are building them are strictly because of lack of land...
HUH? Boston just got it's third tallest last year and another one on the way at 700 feet...

I think the biggest issue of all preventing supertalls is still rattled developer/equity nerves and risk aversion hangover from the great recession. Companies are consolidating space rapidly by way of less SF per person, like 2/3 less than 10 years ago. That consolidation and associated/perceived risk, combined with the financial disaster hangover of the great recession are what I believe to be the primary causes. The cost of construction and lack of land are also factors, though I don't believe they are as primary.
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  #6617  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 4:49 PM
Denvergotback Denvergotback is offline
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Originally Posted by laniroj View Post
HUH? Boston just got it's third tallest last year and another one on the way at 700 feet...

I think the biggest issue of all preventing supertalls is still rattled developer/equity nerves and risk aversion hangover from the great recession. Companies are consolidating space rapidly by way of less SF per person, like 2/3 less than 10 years ago. That consolidation and associated/perceived risk, combined with the financial disaster hangover of the great recession are what I believe to be the primary causes. The cost of construction and lack of land are also factors, though I don't believe they are as primary.
I was only talking about supertalls, as were mentioned above.... which I thought meant anything over 900’..... but I can see the confusion as I later mentioned buildings over 50 stories tall, so my apologies
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  #6618  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 4:52 PM
laniroj laniroj is offline
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Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
What I wondered as well... That the Kimpton developers have a thin track record was partly a concern.

That said there's several sites in Scottsdale where Marriott branded hotels are built right next to each other; maybe an Hampton Inn & Suites plus a lower priced sibling.



Any idea how many riders pay the retail price as opposed to one of several discounted options?

Interestingly, bus ridership had been trending down since 2014 until the 1st quarter of this year when it was up by 11% so apparently raising rates was magical?
No idea how many riders pay full freight vs the discounters. Very strange that bus ridership bucked the trend Jan-Mar, maybe it's because of all the land barges landing in Welton, GT, and RINO?!
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  #6619  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 4:52 PM
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As was mentioned Denver is adding the same amount of office space as a couple super-tall towers but it's all been in 10-20 story buildings in Lodo and the DTC, and now Rino.
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  #6620  
Old Posted Aug 27, 2019, 4:55 PM
laniroj laniroj is offline
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A private company might locate near the boss pretty often, but a public one will generally make a supportable decision.
haha, like Chipotle catering to it's LA based taco hell CEO - because that's what all the happy Colorado employees wanted? Or Crocs, when their Boston based CEO said we're moving to Boston and then they scaled the relocation down to 30 employees because nobody Colorado based wanted to move?
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