Portland Metro Freeway/Highway/Roads News and Discussions

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by innovativethinking

Portland traffic is beyond terrible. We need to stop worrying about bikes and focus on our freeways

So you want skyscrapers and freeways, have you thought about living in Atlanta? You would feel right at home there.

If Portland wants to reduce traffic, it needs to think about bikes, walking, and transit. It makes sense to expand I-5 through the Rose Quarter because of the weird bottleneck. Beyond that, expanding the freeways will do nothing to curb the traffic in Portland.

[Derek]

Am I the only one thinking he's a troll at this point?

[65MAX]

.

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by Derek

Am I the only one thinking he's a troll at this point?

You're exactly right. That's why I no longer get sucked in to arguing about that nonsense anymore. There's nothing innovative about his thinking.... it's the ultimate misnomer.

[Pavlov's Dog]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

So you want skyscrapers and freeways, have you thought about living in Atlanta? You would feel right at home there.

If Portland wants to reduce traffic, it needs to think about bikes, walking, and transit. It makes sense to expand I-5 through the Rose Quarter because of the weird bottleneck. Beyond that, expanding the freeways will do nothing to curb the traffic in Portland.

Portland's metro population has doubled since 1980 and yet there have been no new freeways built on the Oregon side of the Columbia since 1983 when I-205 was completed. There have some some widenings and improvement projects but nothing major.

During that time we've done a fantastic job of building out both Max and the Streetcar. The UGB has barely been expanded and most people are very happy with the direction Oregon and Portland chose.

I'm actually surprised that traffic in Portland isn't even worse than it is. I'm all for building out transit even more but getting funding for the big projects necessary (SW line and DT subway) it is going to be a lot easier if it is done as part of larger financing package that includes new freeways, most notably a westside bypass. Bicycles are a great transportation option for a young, fit people with short commuting distances but for most people in the metro area they really aren't a realistic transportation option.

[innovativethinking]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

So you want skyscrapers and freeways, have you thought about living in Atlanta? You would feel right at home there.

If Portland wants to reduce traffic, it needs to think about bikes, walking, and transit. It makes sense to expand I-5 through the Rose Quarter because of the weird bottleneck. Beyond that, expanding the freeways will do nothing to curb the traffic in Portland.

Dude. Bikes, walking and whatever else you quoted is not working. Nobody is trolling or playing around. Do you know the percentages of ppl who drive their car in Portland compared to taking light rail or rides bike? It's a huge discrepancy. Nobody will ever give up their car. It's way too convenient for humans to truly ever give up on.

Bikes are cool and fun sure but they are not partical enough for the majority of folks. It's time we invest in new freeways

[innovativethinking]

Originally Posted by Pavlov's Dog

Portland's metro population has doubled since 1980 and yet there have been no new freeways built on the Oregon side of the Columbia since 1983 when I-205 was completed. There have some some widenings and improvement projects but nothing major.

During that time we've done a fantastic job of building out both Max and the Streetcar. The UGB has barely been expanded and most people are very happy with the direction Oregon and Portland chose.

I'm actually surprised that traffic in Portland isn't even worse than it is. I'm all for building out transit even more but getting funding for the big projects necessary (SW line and DT subway) it is going to be a lot easier if it is done as part of larger financing package that includes new freeways, most notably a westside bypass. Bicycles are a great transportation option for a young, fit people with short commuting distances but for most people in the metro area they really aren't a realistic transportation option.

Thank you. But careful that's considered trolling

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by Derek

Am I the only one thinking he's a troll at this point?

No, I don't think he is trolling, I do think his points of views on Portland are misguided and do not reflect the ideals of Portland. I also think he sometimes misses the point, no matter how many times we hit the nail on the head, but no he isn't trolling.

Originally Posted by Pavlov's Dog

Portland's metro population has doubled since 1980 and yet there have been no new freeways built on the Oregon side of the Columbia since 1983 when I-205 was completed. There have some some widenings and improvement projects but nothing major.

During that time we've done a fantastic job of building out both Max and the Streetcar. The UGB has barely been expanded and most people are very happy with the direction Oregon and Portland chose.

I'm actually surprised that traffic in Portland isn't even worse than it is. I'm all for building out transit even more but getting funding for the big projects necessary (SW line and DT subway) it is going to be a lot easier if it is done as part of larger financing package that includes new freeways, most notably a westside bypass. Bicycles are a great transportation option for a young, fit people with short commuting distances but for most people in the metro area they really aren't a realistic transportation option.

The westside bypass will probably never happen for a very simple reason, no one on the westside are seriously talking about one beyond adding some lanes to 217. Plus, where would a westside bypass even go today? I can't find a single route that doesn't involve cutting through neighborhoods and businesses that wouldn't cost billions and piss off a lot of land owners that paid a lot of money for their properties. I would much rather see those billions that would be wasted on a westside bypass be spent on light rail expansion on the westside. It makes no sense that we have five lines on the eastside, but only one line on the westside.

I do take offense to bike commuting is viable for young, fit people with short commutes. First, one doesn't have to be young to be fit to commute by bike. I am almost 40 and still commute by bike from time to time and my ride is seven miles each way. Second, most people actually commute a short distance to work in Portland, but when sitting in traffic the time it takes makes the distance seem much further.

http://www.oregonmetro.gov/news/you-...on-gets-around

Based on data from 2016, the average Portlander makes 9.2 trips a day at 4.4 miles on average. Both of those numbers are very manageable by anyone on a bike. Plus biking a total of 40 miles a day is a great way for someone to stay fit and healthy. Biking at an average speed of 15mph, that would amount to about 2 hours and 40 minutes of commute time by bike. If you looked at commuting by car and took those 9 trips a day and figured it took about 20 minutes for each commute, that would be a total of 3 hours driving. So the myth that everything is faster by car or too far by bike is just that, a myth. Obviously there are reasons for driving over biking, many times I need to drive for work because I leave work to meet my wife and change cars to take our daughter. But there are a number of days where biking makes more sense and in many cases is much faster. Granted lately with the smoke, biking isn't the best option, but then just being outside sucks right now.

This is why I think it is extremely important for Portland to expand its light rail and bike infrastructure if it wishes to relieve the congestion that we are seeing on our roads.

Originally Posted by innovativethinking

Dude. Bikes, walking and whatever else you quoted is not working. Nobody is trolling or playing around. Do you know the percentages of ppl who drive their car in Portland compared to taking light rail or rides bike? It's a huge discrepancy. Nobody will ever give up their car. It's way too convenient for humans to truly ever give up on.

Bikes are cool and fun sure but they are not partical enough for the majority of folks. It's time we invest in new freeways

That is a false statement, for those that bike, walk, and ride transit (or as you called it "whatever else") does work. It works for those that do bike, walk, and ride transit because they are not the ones creating traffic.

Yes, I do know the percentage of people who drive compared to taking light rail and biking. Do you? Spoiler alert, the answer is in the link I posted in regards to Pavlov's Dog's post. (which sounds funny, its as if I am responding to a post that a dog wrote that belongs to Pavlov.)

In case you don't click on the link. 70% drive alone when commuting, 10.2% carpool for their commutes. There is a reason why it isn't 89.2% drive is because carpooling is also a method for reducing the number of vehicles on the roads. 6.5% use transit, 2.6% bike, 3,3% walk, and 1% other....which I don't know what other means, maybe it is referring to the percentage of people who unicycle commute, like the Unipiper. Those numbers are for commuting alone, All Trips does change the numbers because more people "carpool" for all trips, but that is basically including people like me when my wife, daughter, and I go someplace, we are taking one car, not three for obvious reasons.

Also if you refer to me comment on Pavlov's Dog's post, you will see that I broke down the myth about commute times via car compared to bike and show that for many people the commute time is identical. It actually takes me longer to commute by light rail than by bike or car, but on the train I can spend my time playing on my phone, something I can't and shouldn't do on a bike or in a car. So there are trade offs.

So to correct your post, bikes are cool and fun and in many cases practical as well, plus it is a great way to stay fit and healthy. So that gives you something to think about the next time you are in a car creating traffic.

And for the record, I don't think you are a troll, I just think we have wildly different opinions, but I am always happy to back my opinions up with facts.

Oh, and beyond widening some of our freeways, we do not need to build any new freeways, we need to be investing in a massive expansion of our light rail system. The westside needs about 4 new lines built, not including the SW Portland line that is being studied. An expansion like this would also require Portland to invest in a real subway system through downtown combined with the surface lines running through the city. So yes, I am actually advocating for a real subway system through inner Portland because it is the best time for it as we continue to plan for the future of this city and metro.

[hat]

Maccoinich's price comparison allows for great perspective on how casually we throw around hundreds of millions for freeway project ideas. The largest bike project could indeed be a rounding error in the estimate for just this one RQ project estimated at $450 million.

In the 60s our friends to the North in Vancouver BC (which was in a very similar state to Portland at the time) resisted building freeways. Instead, they focused on transit modes other than cars. Their bike/walk/transit mode share last year was 50%. There are numerous examples of similar stories across Europe.

What $450 million could do:
-40 miles of cable barrier along ODOT roads throughout Portland for separate bike paths.
-A new two lane multi-modal bridge across the Columbia River.
-A Powell MAX line spanning SE Portland from SE 17th to I-205 (The Interstate MAX line cost $350 million in 2004).

[Pavlov's Dog]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

The westside bypass will probably never happen for a very simple reason, no one on the westside are seriously talking about one beyond adding some lanes to 217. Plus, where would a westside bypass even go today? I can't find a single route that doesn't involve cutting through neighborhoods and businesses that wouldn't cost billions and piss off a lot of land owners that paid a lot of money for their properties. I would much rather see those billions that would be wasted on a westside bypass be spent on light rail expansion on the westside. It makes no sense that we have five lines on the eastside, but only one line on the westside.

Oh, and beyond widening some of our freeways, we do not need to build any new freeways, we need to be investing in a massive expansion of our light rail system. The westside needs about 4 new lines built, not including the SW Portland line that is being studied. An expansion like this would also require Portland to invest in a real subway system through downtown combined with the surface lines running through the city. So yes, I am actually advocating for a real subway system through inner Portland because it is the best time for it as we continue to plan for the future of this city and metro.

Just to focus on the freeway vs. transit portion of the discussion.

The Westside bypass (lets call it I-805) I envision starts in West Vancouver, where I-5 meets 99 at Hazel Dell, crosses the Columbia on a joint rail (lower level) road (upper level) bridge just West of Hayden Island. It snakes through Rivergate where there is both space and need for better access. The 805 crosses the Willamette where the power lines are. These get strung into the bridge structure. It follows the existing power line corridor but under Forest Park and putting the power lines into the tunnel means the forest can grow back there. It comes out West of Skyline and then proceeds just south and east of CP Road. The substation at 26 and CPR gets moved north and the 805 follows the power line corridor just east of CPR through the built up area in Washington County. 805 goes south of Cooper Mountain, then between Sherwood and Tualatin and joins I-5 north of Wilsonville. By all means it should also include passenger rail or preferably dedicated rapid bus lanes. I-805 won't fix all of Portland's traffic issues but it will get a lot of cars off of city streets and freeways. Those people don't want to be there anymore than we want them there.

Europe has been touted for it's focus on transit but note that most European cities and countries also have spent quite a bit of money on building very good freeways. Thankfully most of them were built later than in the US so they usually didn't destroy high quality urban fabric to build them. A lot of time extensive tunnelling under neighborhoods or surface roads is necessary. Germany has both fantastic U-bane, S-bane, streetcars and autobahn. Same for pretty much any country in Western Europe. Like the US a lot of people in Europe don't live in densely populated areas and all the wishful thinking in the world isn't going to get them to do so. They too have transportation needs, pay taxes and expect services in return.

I would say the population of Portland Metro has been very progressive in choosing to build out transit rather then freeways but at some point the vast majority, who don't directly benefit from transit, will boil over and the funding will dry up. I get that most of you here are in your echo chamber and react condescendingly to anyone of a dissimilar opinion as a troll. You're entitled to that opinion but elites ignoring that masses is what got us into the mess we're in politically right now. Politics has unnessarily become a zero sum game where someone has to lose and someone has to win. What every happened to empathy, compromise and win-win?

The financing conundrum that Portland, and other progressive cities, face is that the people who drive want better roads and yet seldom are willing to pay for them. Those who want transit are willing to pay for it but often don't have that much money and are in the minority.

I too want to see improved rail transit in Portland and like you say, the next step after the SW corridor is a subway. That's maybe 3-5 billion for those two projects. We can bitch and moan endlessly about Vantucky but the fact is that the good jobs are in Washington County and the cheap housing is in Clark County but that's the reality of the situation. There's a sizeable distance between the two and both jobs and housing are highly decentralized. In between is the city of Portland.

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by innovativethinking

Portland traffic is beyond terrible. We need to stop worrying about bikes and focus on our freeways

Facepalm.

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

innovative1950sthinking

THIS.

And that comment is particularly biting because the "innovating thinking" of the 1950s is what created so much of the traffic and poorly planned infrastructure mess we live with today. They ripped our cities apart by tearing up neighborhoods to lay down asphalt. They created sprawl that put people further away from their jobs and, especially at the time, further away from their families, friends, and all of their needs. That sort of "innovative thinking" lead to a nation of people who couldn't survive without their cars. It amazes me to think about how many people give up an hour a day or even two hours a day, at least five days a week, sitting in their cars.

Years ago, I dated a woman who worked in the Pearl and she used to drive in every day from Hillsboro. It didn't take long for her to realize she'd get an extra 90 minutes a day of free time if she moved downtown. She never realized how tied to her car she'd been until she wasn't anymore.

Think about the extensive mass transit Portland had in the early 1900s. Gone. Could you imagine if, instead of tearing it out, the city had been maintaining and even improving it?

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by Pavlov's Dog

Just to focus on the freeway vs. transit portion of the discussion.

The Westside bypass (lets call it I-805) I envision starts in West Vancouver, where I-5 meets 99 at Hazel Dell, crosses the Columbia on a joint rail (lower level) road (upper level) bridge just West of Hayden Island. It snakes through Rivergate where there is both space and need for better access. The 805 crosses the Willamette where the power lines are. These get strung into the bridge structure. It follows the existing power line corridor but under Forest Park and putting the power lines into the tunnel means the forest can grow back there. It comes out West of Skyline and then proceeds just south and east of CP Road. The substation at 26 and CPR gets moved north and the 805 follows the power line corridor just east of CPR through the built up area in Washington County. 805 goes south of Cooper Mountain, then between Sherwood and Tualatin and joins I-5 north of Wilsonville. By all means it should also include passenger rail or preferably dedicated rapid bus lanes. I-805 won't fix all of Portland's traffic issues but it will get a lot of cars off of city streets and freeways. Those people don't want to be there anymore than we want them there.

Europe has been touted for it's focus on transit but note that most European cities and countries also have spent quite a bit of money on building very good freeways. Thankfully most of them were built later than in the US so they usually didn't destroy high quality urban fabric to build them. A lot of time extensive tunnelling under neighborhoods or surface roads is necessary. Germany has both fantastic U-bane, S-bane, streetcars and autobahn. Same for pretty much any country in Western Europe. Like the US a lot of people in Europe don't live in densely populated areas and all the wishful thinking in the world isn't going to get them to do so. They too have transportation needs, pay taxes and expect services in return.

I would say the population of Portland Metro has been very progressive in choosing to build out transit rather then freeways but at some point the vast majority, who don't directly benefit from transit, will boil over and the funding will dry up. I get that most of you here are in your echo chamber and react condescendingly to anyone of a dissimilar opinion as a troll. You're entitled to that opinion but elites ignoring that masses is what got us into the mess we're in politically right now. Politics has unnessarily become a zero sum game where someone has to lose and someone has to win. What every happened to empathy, compromise and win-win?

The financing conundrum that Portland, and other progressive cities, face is that the people who drive want better roads and yet seldom are willing to pay for them. Those who want transit are willing to pay for it but often don't have that much money and are in the minority.

I too want to see improved rail transit in Portland and like you say, the next step after the SW corridor is a subway. That's maybe 3-5 billion for those two projects. We can bitch and moan endlessly about Vantucky but the fact is that the good jobs are in Washington County and the cheap housing is in Clark County but that's the reality of the situation. There's a sizeable distance between the two and both jobs and housing are highly decentralized. In between is the city of Portland.

I do think that is probably the more ideal route for a westside bypass, I just don't see anyone in Vancouver or on the westside pushing for anything like this. Plus this project would be in the multi billions to make happen, just for another route to be packed with traffic. I would much rather see that money spent on expanding rail in the region.

People in Clark County can complain all they want about sitting in traffic because they are the ones creating the traffic they sit in. All I am concerned with is providing them an alternative to creating more traffic.

[hat]

Regardless of your opinion on the RQ project, ODOT has essentially two reasons for it:

1. To reduce congestion. To date there is little evidence to support reduction in congestion by expanding freeways. Congestion pricing has some evidence to suggest that it can work.
2. To improve safety. This map shows serious injuries/fatalities in all modes from 2005-2014. The RQ project would have a negligible effect on improving safety on Portland roads.

[eric cantona]

THIS:

Originally Posted by Pavlov's Dog

They too have transportation needs, pay taxes and expect services in return.

it's a bit rich to say this without acknowledging the MASSIVE subsidies that the automobile/petroleum industry has received over the last 60 or so years. subsidies that continue to this day in a variety of forms. If, in your example, someone choosing to live in Vancouver and commuting to Hillsboro was made to pay all the ACTUAL costs of sitting alone in their car for hours a week my guess is they'd either move closer, or change jobs. or, god forbid, use public transportation.

and I will gleefully acknowledge the massive public subsidies devoted to transit because they offer us a more sensible approach in an era of climate change and rocketing costs of developing car infrastructure.

[innovativethinking]

I just don't understand why ppl hate cars so much?? It's one of the greatest inventions of all time

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by innovativethinking

I just don't understand why ppl hate cars so much?? It's one of the greatest inventions of all time

This isn't about "hating cars," that is another myth that keeps getting used whenever anything is done that isn't seen as a direct improvement for cars. Expanding alternative forms of transportation is the only way to improve traffic that is created by cars by making is so less people are driving.

[hat]

Originally Posted by Pavlov's Dog

Just to focus on the freeway vs. transit portion of the discussion.

The Westside bypass (lets call it I-805) I envision starts in West Vancouver, where I-5 meets 99 at Hazel Dell, crosses the Columbia on a joint rail (lower level) road (upper level) bridge just West of Hayden Island. It snakes through Rivergate where there is both space and need for better access. The 805 crosses the Willamette where the power lines are.

I would be interested to find out how palatable this idea is to the thousands of people living directly adjacent to its ROW in Washington County.

The multimodal rail bridge as proposed in the common sense alternative in addition to a two lane bridge across the Willamette near the Georgia-Pacific and Fred's Marina properties would allow for predictable freight access from Vancouver to Washington Co. This, and not the expansion of I-5 would be in the best interests of the freight industry. In addition, the St. John's bridge could finally become a safe, local, multimodal bridge.

[Rob Nob]

I am pretty disappointed how much this country has bent over backwards spending public money and spreading out our infrastructure so thin, just to make our automobile dominated culture as easy and convenient as possible.

[innovativethinking]

Originally Posted by Rob Nob

I am pretty disappointed how much this country has bent over backwards spending public money and spreading out our infrastructure so thin, just to make our automobile dominated culture as easy and convenient as possible.

Good. Cars are comfortable. When it's hot it has air conditioner. When it's cold it has a heater. We are grown adults with lives we don't have time to bike

[Pavlov's Dog]

Originally Posted by eric cantona

THIS:



it's a bit rich to say this without acknowledging the MASSIVE subsidies that the automobile/petroleum industry has received over the last 60 or so years. subsidies that continue to this day in a variety of forms. If, in your example, someone choosing to live in Vancouver and commuting to Hillsboro was made to pay all the ACTUAL costs of sitting alone in their car for hours a week my guess is they'd either move closer, or change jobs. or, god forbid, use public transportation.

and I will gleefully acknowledge the massive public subsidies devoted to transit because they offer us a more sensible approach in an era of climate change and rocketing costs of developing car infrastructure.

The purpose of my post was to address a current transportation issue, not lament about our ancestors choices. In this day and age it is pretty much a given that a new bridge across the Columbia will have to be financed by a toll. In general I am very much in favor of both road pricing and increased fuel taxes. People who use roads should pay for them. There is a massive back-log of both maintenance and construction. As always the poor would be very adversely effected by a fuel tax increase though since it is a large portion of many people's incomes.