[Dartmouth] The Post (53 Queen) | 90 m | 26 fl | U/C

[kph06]

Hopefully I have the new thread format correct.

Information for Case 24619 is now online for the repurposing of the former Post Office site.

Renderings

Elevations

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by kph06

Hopefully I have the new thread format correct.

Information for Case 24619 is now online for the repurposing of the former Post Office site.

Renderings

Elevations

WOW! That would be a very interesting addition to DT Dartmouth.
Let er rip.

[Drybrain]

Between this and the U/C next phase of King's Wharf, Dartmouth is getting some better-looking towers than Halifax. Would be cool if the city could dangle some incentive in front of the developer to rebuild the old post office spire, as seen here.

Only critique I'd levy is that the corner of Queen and King could stand to have some kind of retail frontage; it looks a little empty/neglected in these renders.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Between this and the U/C next phase of King's Wharf, Dartmouth is getting some better-looking towers than Halifax.

I think there's been a bigger shift in quality and scale too. Downtown Dartmouth felt stuck in low gear for a long time, and only had a handful of substantial buildings. It would be like if there were a new top 10 list of towers being built in Halifax or something.

Another observation is that there are not a lot of non-major (multi-million sized) North American cities with a Dartmouth-like area outside of downtown. The Halifax area is getting a really good mix of neighbourhoods and is losing its "compact" feel (it used to be common for people to say Halifax is like a small town where you can wander around the nice parts easily on foot in a short period of time). But it will become more important to provide good transportation connections between these more extensive areas.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Would be cool if the city could dangle some incentive in front of the developer to rebuild the old post office spire, as seen here.

Agreed. I'd like to see that too as it would also add a slight bit of balance to the other side of the block. I recall this was discussed in another thread, but it would likely be an expensive add because IIRC this was taken down due to structural issues with the building.

Regardless, I'm just glad they are saving the old post office and building up the empty surface parking lot next door.

[connect2source]

Smart looking tower and still better than a lot of the crap we're still getting here in Vancouver! Far better than that spandrel mess over at Kings Wharf that already looks very dated, much like Yaletown does in Vancouver. So impressed with the level of design coming out of Halifax lately!

[mleblanc]

Wow! That may be my favourite local proposal I've seen in awhile

[Dmajackson]

Looks great!

Between this King's Wharf, Canal Street projects, and Wyse Road developments Dartmouth is certainly changing quick.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

Another observation is that there are not a lot of non-major (multi-million sized) North American cities with a Dartmouth-like area outside of downtown. The Halifax area is getting a really good mix of neighbourhoods and is losing its "compact" feel (it used to be common for people to say Halifax is like a small town where you can wander around the nice parts easily on foot in a short period of time). But it will become more important to provide good transportation connections between these more extensive areas.

You make a good point here and one that should be amplified. Getting around DT Dartmouth is a nightmare. The street network is a mess and has been made marginally worse thanks to the area councillor's love of bump-outs at intersections and bike lanes. But the bigger problem is the actual network itself. The streets meander this way and that, and there are few connections with the area on either side of DT that are efficient and even slightly direct. Victoria Rd does not connect with DT at all, becoming one-way outbound from DT; Wyse does not connect directly, requiring a diversion around Dillman Park; and the on the other side of DT you have the mess that is Five Corners. Not only is bus service poor as a result, but the hills heading north make human-powered movement difficult as well. There are no easy solutions unfortunately, but projects like this can only make things worse in that respect.

As for the proposal itself, I am less enthused by the design than it seems some others are, as it looks like most of the other taller structures being proposed. The integration of the old Post Office is OK, but it looks rather out of place next to the new building. It sure would have been nice for some of its sandstone elements on the first couple of floors to continue around to the new part.

[Empire]

Great to see the height phobia waning finally. Being able to build a significant project outside of DT Halifax has opened up many possibilities. As much as I want to see height and density I think a version of Queens Marque would have been a great option to tie into the sandstone Post Office.

DT Dartmouth has a very small town feel due to its poor layout and ad hoc building use. I think it may need a gradual transformation. In the short term I would like to see new height in the Canal – King’s Wharf district as well as the district that holds tremendous potential, (Wyse Rd. from the bridge to Albro Lake Rd.).

The good news is that the tower doesn’t look anything like Queen’s Sq. , Belmont House or the Maranova Hotel.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

You make a good point here and one that should be amplified. Getting around DT Dartmouth is a nightmare. The street network is a mess and has been made marginally worse thanks to the area councillor's love of bump-outs at intersections and bike lanes. But the bigger problem is the actual network itself. The streets meander this way and that, and there are few connections with the area on either side of DT that are efficient and even slightly direct. Victoria Rd does not connect with DT at all, becoming one-way outbound from DT; Wyse does not connect directly, requiring a diversion around Dillman Park; and the on the other side of DT you have the mess that is Five Corners. Not only is bus service poor as a result, but the hills heading north make human-powered movement difficult as well. There are no easy solutions unfortunately, but projects like this can only make things worse in that respect.

As for the proposal itself, I am less enthused by the design than it seems some others are, as it looks like most of the other taller structures being proposed. The integration of the old Post Office is OK, but it looks rather out of place next to the new building. It sure would have been nice for some of its sandstone elements on the first couple of floors to continue around to the new part.

That's an interesting take, Keith. Perhaps because I am so familiar with the area, I never noticed any difficulty getting around. In fact I'd offer that it's easier to navigate than DT Halifax. The street layout is what it is, but is not really unique or unusual, and the 'complicated' intersections (like Five Corners) is well-signalled and I don't recall ever having an issue getting through there.

I agree that the curb bumpouts are an idea that could go away tomorrow and it would not be missed, but that's been discussed in many threads so there's no need to continue.

On thing I find whenever I go to DT Dartmouth (by car) is that it's difficult to cross Ochterloney in some spots due to traffic and not great sight lines. I've often thought that Victoria should have a signalled intersection, and now perhaps Ochterloney and King should as well. The layout is too tight for roundabouts, but as development increases, traffic will as well so something will need to be done.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think there's been a bigger shift in quality and scale too. Downtown Dartmouth felt stuck in low gear for a long time, and only had a handful of substantial buildings. It would be like if there were a new top 10 list of towers being built in Halifax or something.

Another observation is that there are not a lot of non-major (multi-million sized) North American cities with a Dartmouth-like area outside of downtown. The Halifax area is getting a really good mix of neighbourhoods and is losing its "compact" feel (it used to be common for people to say Halifax is like a small town where you can wander around the nice parts easily on foot in a short period of time). But it will become more important to provide good transportation connections between these more extensive areas.

For a long time, I found it disappointing that while DT Halifax was being built up, right across the harbour, Dartmouth was being more or less neglected (save a couple of projects like King's Wharf, etc.).

I'm thinking now that this delay might actually improve DT Dartmouth. As Halifax is being built-out, there's now an opportunity - and lots of relatively prime lots available - for developers to engage in some higher-quality projects that might not have happened when there were still so many opportunities in Halifax. We'll see how it goes but this one makes a person optimistic.

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by Dmajackson

Looks great!

Between this King's Wharf, Canal Street projects, and Wyse Road developments Dartmouth is certainly changing quick.

And don't forget the empty lot behind Admiralty Place that is earmarked for a fairly massive development.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by connect2source

Smart looking tower and still better than a lot of the crap we're still getting here in Vancouver! Far better than that spandrel mess over at Kings Wharf that already looks very dated, much like Yaletown does in Vancouver. So impressed with the level of design coming out of Halifax lately!

These designs have sort of come full circle. Glass curtain walls were very popular and modern feeling in the 2000's but the cheaper spandrel-heavy projects didn't look so good (and often the spandrel didn't appear in the renderings). Now some nicer projects are starting to have "punched out" windows. The elevation drawings say that the white wall material will be metal composite panels.

I don't think we have seen it yet in Halifax but more and more Toronto projects have some kind of decorative brickwork (partly brick is just more common there while in Halifax a similar quality of project would probably use sandstone/granite). I wonder if architecture will ever evolve back toward more ornamentation being considered trendy, or you might say even acceptable.

[JHikka]

I like the general idea and scope but the tower is ugly and disjointed.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Getting around DT Dartmouth is a nightmare.

Keith, I actually did laugh out loud at this comment.

Seriously? Nightmare? Downtown Dartmouth?

You're the only person I've ever heard to suggest such a thing

If navigating downtown Dartmouth is too much for you, well, perhaps you've reached the point at which you need to, well... turn in your license.

Or perhaps you were joking. That's it, right?

[Jonovision]

I don't think it's a bad design but it definitely needs a lot more work. It does nothing to highlight the old post office. The massing needs to pull back from it more. Unless of course if they rebuilt the old clock tower. Then that give the old building much more prominence.

The tower itself doesn't feel fully thought through. I can't understand why there is glazing in some places and the punched windows in others and then random balconies thrown in a few levels at a time. It needs a few more rounds of editing IMHO.

I'm also disappointed at the lack of any sort of crown or top for this building. It just ends. There are allowances in all of the new bylaws for decorative crowns and spires and such that allow buildings to push their heights to make them look better from a distance.

I was under the impression that because this is a heritage DA it sits outside of the usual centreplan and height limits. I was half expecting them to propose to rebuild the clock tower in exchange for some additional floors above the typical 90m heights we are seeing.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Keith, I actually did laugh out loud at this comment.

Seriously? Nightmare? Downtown Dartmouth?

You're the only person I've ever heard to suggest such a thing

If navigating downtown Dartmouth is too much for you, well, perhaps you've reached the point at which you need to, well... turn in your license.

Or perhaps you were joking. That's it, right?

My comment stands. Try it yourself sometime. The street layout hasn't changed in many decades. It only works at present because there has never been much population there. Once these new developments add a few thousand residents, the sleepy little downtown with all of its narrow, dysfunctional streets and poorly-designed intersections will become a major liability.

[Empire]

The curb bump out at the corner of Portland and King is one of the original curb bump outs. The Portland St. bump outs were installed long before they became so fashionable with HRM. The idea is that they provide a closer access to the other side of the street for pedestrians and in some odd way protect parked from cars turning right.

The reality is, it is dangerous for right turns as cars have to cross into oncoming traffic to clear the curb and there is no room for a cyclist and two cars to pass safely. No parking a certain distance from the intersection addresses the issue of right turning vehicles and parked cars at other intersections. As the density increases in the confined downtown area, intersections like this will become increasingly problematic. (Link 1)

Link 2 shows the bump out on the east side of the intersection and the unkept landscaping associated with it.

Ref. Google Maps

Link 1 - Portland & King
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.6655...7i16384!8i8192

Link 2 - Portland & King East
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.6657...7i16384!8i8192

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

My comment stands. Try it yourself sometime. The street layout hasn't changed in many decades. It only works at present because there has never been much population there. Once these new developments add a few thousand residents, the sleepy little downtown with all of its narrow, dysfunctional streets and poorly-designed intersections will become a major liability.

Try it myself sometime? That's hilarious. I live in the area. I drive it virtually every day and have for many decades.

I won't quarrel with your argument that there could be better design and functionality - that's obvious (and the local councillor's "improvements" really make me grind my teeth). My comment was really only about your hyperbole. Driving downtown is very far from a "nightmare". I don't recall it ever causing me any real problem or delay.