South Burrard | Proposed

[mr.x]

It has my full seal of approval. I love it, and I do think the highest tower is quite a proper height....this is the kind of density we should be seeing in Kitsilano anyway (or at least the eastern half of it) considering how close it is to Downtown.

The tone of the article is most certainly out of line, these days they don't report their news they report their opinion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think one of those buildings partially hovers over the northbound Burrard Street lanes.


With this development, there's certainly an urgency to provide the area with better transit service.

[officedweller]

Here's the pic I posted in the general thread. Now that I look at it more closely, the trolley RoW doesn't follow Greer, but is at an angle, as drawn by jsbertram:

Originally Posted by officedweller

Of interest, 1945 shot of Vanier Park area:

Oblique view. Photograph shows Kitsilano swimming pool, Kits Point and the R.C.A.F. Equipment Depot.

http://vancouver.ca/ctyclerk/archive...ub1/A23415.jpg

Note the building at Kits Beach that's probably bigger than the controversial Watermark restaurant building.

[Zassk]

Come on folks, this isn't losing a tunnel ROW for transit. A new tunnel across False Creek would be so expensive that it won't matter what land parcels we possess in advance, we would just purchase whatever land is necessary or tunnel under all of the development.

Seriously, another rail tunnel across False Creek after Canada Line is pie-in-the-sky stuff. At best, we will live to see a line built from this neighbourhood over to Olympic Village and/or up the Arbutus Corridor. To withhold land for a future tunnel mouth is ridiculous.

[jsbertram]

I don't remember saying block the development for a future Burrard St subway tunnel.

I thought I was saying design the development in such a way that a future Burrard St subway tunnel under the alignment of the curved abandoned CPR tracks would still be possible.

Perhaps the bare concrete tunnel portion could be built as part of the development & left vacant until the Burrard St subway and False Creek tunnels are built to connect to it.

Perhaps the development could have an underground streetcar station included so the Downtown Streetcars start and end the runs here, rather than Granville Island. Later the extension under False Creek and up Burrard St can be attached so streetcars run through this station. In the meanwhile, this station provides a direct connection from the downtown streetcar line to the development, and a round-about way to get downtown.


I read a few years ago that a new apartment complex in New York was to be built over a planned subway line, so NYCTransit paid the developer to build a two-block section of subway (just the bare concrete) under the parking structure and the rest of the building while it was all under construction. They figured it would be cheaper to build the subway tubes at that time, rather than prop up the building later to build the subway tubes under it later.

That section has been unused since it was built (if you don't count the illegal RAVES that are held there occasionally), but eventually there will be other subway tubes connecting to them so subway trains can run under the building.

[red-paladin]

In edmonton, when the Epcor Tower started construction, the city paid for a subway tunnel segment to be built under the site. This is because they were in active planning of the new northern branch of the LRT to NAIT, and they could save a lot of money by building the tunnel under the site during the tower construction. However, they are planning to build this LRT extension in the next few years. What we are talking about in Vancouver is like 40+ years away.

Remember they already built the Burrard st. bridge with a train lift segment in mind for a future subway, and that was never built. So there is such a thing as over planning. But I do think that the cityt should start to plan where the streetcar tracks will go from Granville Island to Arbutus before anything in the area is built.

[yogiderek]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

This also shows how much larger the land taken up by Molsons is.
When the Squamish get going on their project, you can bet the Molson family will see the potential $billions$ they can make by moving the brewery out to some place with cheap land (Surrey? Langley? Coquitlam?) and redevelop their Burrard property into something of a cross-pollination between Bentall Centre (for offices) and Olympic Village (for condos). Perhaps not as tall as Bentall Centre, but at least as tall as what the Squamish could build.

I saw the same potentional, with the Armory as well. It could be a complete new amazing urban center. I great entrance to False creek with the potential of getting the CPR on board with their lands and tracks. This is an extremely exciting project for kits. If the Bental group redevelops their site too

[sacrifice333]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

This also shows how much larger the land taken up by Molsons is.
When the Squamish get going on their project, you can bet the Molson family will see the potential $billions$ they can make by moving the brewery out to some place with cheap land (Surrey? Langley? Coquitlam?) and redevelop their Burrard property into something of a cross-pollination between Bentall Centre (for offices) and Olympic Village (for condos). Perhaps not as tall as Bentall Centre, but at least as tall as what the Squamish could build.

Didn't they already do that with the New West Brewery?! Did it the opposite way they should have?!

"Let's sell $100,000 condos instead of $1,000,000 ones!"

[worldwide]

that was Labbats brewery in new west, and you won't find a condo there for 100 grand unless its a leaky one

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

In edmonton, when the Epcor Tower started construction, the city paid for a subway tunnel segment to be built under the site. This is because they were in active planning of the new northern branch of the LRT to NAIT, and they could save a lot of money by building the tunnel under the site during the tower construction. However, they are planning to build this LRT extension in the next few years. What we are talking about in Vancouver is like 40+ years away.

Remember they already built the Burrard st. bridge with a train lift segment in mind for a future subway, and that was never built. So there is such a thing as over planning. But I do think that the cityt should start to plan where the streetcar tracks will go from Granville Island to Arbutus before anything in the area is built.

That jogs my recollection that Calgary did something similar when the new City Hall was built in the 80s. They knew that an 8th Ave subway would be built sometime in the future, so the bare tunnels for it were built under the City Hall during construction. If you take the C-Train between the Stampede grounds and City Hall, you will see a bricked-up gap on the west wall of the tunnel the runs east of City Hall. This is where the south leg of the C-Train will connect to the 8th Ave subway in the future (running under the City Hall building). I'm also told there is another piece of tunnel so that 8th Ave subway trains can eventually connect with the NorthEast C-Train line after running under City Hall.

Rumours say that the bare tunnels are being used for dead-file storage for now.

I hear here there is a study or report being done regarding building the 8th Ave subway, since the 7th Ave transit mall may be at capacity when the new C-Train West line is finished and plugged into the rest of the system.
The report may be released after their election in the fall so it doesn't become another election issue.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by yogiderek

I saw the same potentional, with the Armory as well. It could be a complete new amazing urban center. I great entrance to False creek with the potential of getting the CPR on board with their lands and tracks. This is an extremely exciting project for kits. If the Bental group redevelops their site too

There will be a huge fight if someone even thinks of moving the Seaforth Highlanders and their Armoury from the Burrard site. Especially when the building is now a Class A Heritage Building on the Heritage Registry.

DND could move the Seaforth Highlanders to a new Armoury at Jericho, or build new DND facilities on the parking lot behind the Burrard Armoury & consolidate some of their functions at Burrard.

Because of the deep history of the Seaforth Highlanders in BC, i have no doubt this will stir the passions of everyone on all sides of the debate.

[yogiderek]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

There will be a huge fight if someone even thinks of moving the Seaforth Highlanders and their Armoury from the Burrard site. Especially when the building is now a Class A Heritage Building on the Heritage Registry.

DND could move the Seaforth Highlanders to a new Armoury at Jericho, or build new DND facilities on the parking lot behind the Burrard Armoury & consolidate some of their functions at Burrard.

Because of the deep history of the Seaforth Highlanders in BC, i have no doubt this will stir the passions of everyone on all sides of the debate.

well of course you would KEEP the Amoury, just the land behind it would be developed. Its a huge amount of land. They have all that extra land still further west too at on 4th.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

This also shows how much larger the land taken up by Molsons is.
When the Squamish get going on their project, you can bet the Molson family will see the potential $billions$ they can make by moving the brewery out to some place with cheap land (Surrey? Langley? Coquitlam?) and redevelop their Burrard property into something of a cross-pollination between Bentall Centre (for offices) and Olympic Village (for condos). Perhaps not as tall as Bentall Centre, but at least as tall as what the Squamish could build.

I would hate to see the Molson brewery move out of the area. It adds an industrial edge which is missing in so much of Vancouver now (not to mention jobs near downtown). It is nice to still have one major production site in what use to be a larger industrial area, even if it is just for nostalgia / heritage reasons.

Also, if it were to be shut down, looking at past trends of factory closures in our area, they would not build a new brewery anywhere near Metro-Vancouver and it will simply become lost jobs.

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

That jogs my recollection that Calgary did something similar when the new City Hall was built in the 80s. They knew that an 8th Ave subway would be built sometime in the future, so the bare tunnels for it were built under the City Hall during construction. If you take the C-Train between the Stampede grounds and City Hall, you will see a bricked-up gap on the west wall of the tunnel the runs east of City Hall. This is where the south leg of the C-Train will connect to the 8th Ave subway in the future (running under the City Hall building). I'm also told there is another piece of tunnel so that 8th Ave subway trains can eventually connect with the NorthEast C-Train line after running under City Hall.

Rumours say that the bare tunnels are being used for dead-file storage for now.

I hear here there is a study or report being done regarding building the 8th Ave subway, since the 7th Ave transit mall may be at capacity when the new C-Train West line is finished and plugged into the rest of the system.
The report may be released after their election in the fall so it doesn't become another election issue.

wikipedia has some info on this subject:

Underground infrastructure

In addition to numerous tunnels to allow trains to pass under roadways, geographic features, and mainline railways, there are other notable underground portions of Calgary's C-Train system.

Part of the system through downtown is planned to be transferred underground when needed to maintain reliable service. Given this, portions of the needed infrastructure have been built as adjacent and associated land was developed.[31] As a result of this original plan, when the City of Calgary built a new Municipal Building, it built a short section of tunnel to connect the existing CPR tunnel to the future tunnel under 8th Avenue S. The turnoff to this station is visible in the tunnel on Route 201 entering downtown from the south, shortly before City Hall. However, after urban explorers discovered the tunnel and visited it during a transit strike[citation needed], the city walled off the spur tunnel with cinder blocks.

As the population of metropolitan Calgary increases and growing suburbs require new lines and extensions, the higher train volumes will exceed the ability of the downtown section along 7th Avenue S to accommodate them. To provide for long-term expansion, the city is reviewing its plans to put parts of the downtown section underground. The current plans allow the expanded Route 202 (Northeast/West) to use the existing 7th Avenue S surface infrastructure. The expanded Route 201 (Northwest/South), currently sharing 7th Avenue S with Route 202, will be relocated to a new tunnel dug beneath 8th Avenue S. The future Southeast/Downtown route will probably enter downtown through a shorter tunnel under one or more streets (candidates include 2nd Street W, 5th Street W, 6th Street W, 8th Avenue S, 10th Avenue S, 11th Avenue S, and 12th Avenue S). The future North line will probably share track from the Zoo station through downtown with the existing Northeast line (Route 202), avoiding the cost of a tunnel until passenger volumes grow.[25] Although Calgary City Council commissioned a functional study for the downtown metro component of the C-Train system in November 2007, the city is unlikely to complete this expansion before 2017 unless additional funding is received from provincial or federal governments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-Train

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by sacrifice333

Didn't they already do that with the New West Brewery?! Did it the opposite way they should have?!

"Let's sell $100,000 condos instead of $1,000,000 ones!"

Don't forget the former Carling O'Keefe brewery lands - at Arbutus & 12th. According to Wkipedia, Carling O'Keefe ad Molsons merged in 1989.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

This also shows how much larger the land taken up by Molsons is.
When the Squamish get going on their project, you can bet the Molson family will see the potential $billions$ they can make by moving the brewery out to some place with cheap land (Surrey? Langley? Coquitlam?) and redevelop their Burrard property into something of a cross-pollination between Bentall Centre (for offices) and Olympic Village (for condos). Perhaps not as tall as Bentall Centre, but at least as tall as what the Squamish could build.

Molson has no property on Burrard St. The land the brewery sits on is owned is owned by the same band behind this proposal.

[Joat]

I think I heard something about this project on the radio. Something about how the (Squamish?) nation is meeting up to talk about it, and how a bunch of people worried because they don't have to adhere to normal regulations.

[phesto]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

Molson has no property on Burrard St. The land the brewery sits on is owned is owned by the same band behind this proposal.

No, Molson owns the land under the brewery. The Squamish FN own everything to the North of the Molson site.

[Millennium2002]

I don't see a lot of reasons why people would be opposed to seeing something built rather than keep the current billboards and such. Unless they're nearby residents of course. =O

[officedweller]

BTW -
I saw a small blimp (the kind that takes view photos for condo projects) in the general vicinity of the south end of Burrard Bridge on Saturday.

From News1130:

People in Kitsilano unfazed by plans for big towers
Squamish nation planning towers on reserve land

Dave White Feb 09, 2011 09:50:50 AM

VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) - Neighbours don't have any say in its approval, but many are supportive of the plan anyway. The Squamish nation is looking at building two highrises on its land in Kitsilano.

They would go up at the southwest corner of the Burrard Street Bridge, the same site of a controversial electronic billboard. We spoke to one woman who lives nearby, who hopes some towers with modern designs will hide what she calls an area eyesore.

"If they can do something about covering up the world's ugliest building at the corner of Cornwall and Burrard, then we're good to go," she says.

Others say if it's Squamish land, let them make money; it might revitalize the neighbourhood.

Another neighbour says, "They were given land that's not very accessible. I mean, our city is popular. It's growing. I think they have to be able to use their land."

Because it's reserve land, the band doesn't need approval from the city and that means no public hearing. It's unclear when work would start; the band still has to vote and a date for that hasn't been set.

Squamish band votes on towers next to Vanier Park
Vote takes place Monday and Wednesday

Renee Bernard
Feb 20, 2011 11:44:57 AM

VANCOUVER (NEWS1130) - A two-day vote begins Monday for members of the Squamish First Nation, who've been asked to endorse a new business plan, which calls for two towers at the south-west end of the Burrard Street Bridge.

The rental high-rises would be located between the bridge and Vanier Park, which is Squamish territory.

Chief Gibby Jacob won't say how high they envision them to be, but says one of the towers would provide much-needed monthly revenue.

"The way we're proposing to go forward, we will own the second tower 100 per cent. I like to call it my Squamish Nation's ATM. It'll be like plugging the card in every month and getting money out," he insists.

Jacob calls the towers an exciting prospect for the band. "It's our first venture into developing our lands. We have a number of developments like Park Royal South, for instance, which represent a more passive role for us where we just collect a yearly lease. But in these ones, we'll be doing a heck of a lot more, which is exciting."

The band council and its 2,400 adult members will be casting ballots Monday and Wednesday. Once the vote is tabulated, the first nation will share its findings with the City of Vancouver.

The City of Vancouver is already well aware of the plans. If the project goes through, the band would have to work with the city for water and sewer services, and to discuss impacts on the neighbourhood and traffic.

http://www.news1130.com/news/local/a...to-vanier-park

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

In this photograph from 1982, you can see a portion of the old train tracks that curved around the Credit Union building, including the rail trestle that used to cross False Creek:



http://www.globalairphotos.com/image...ch1982_071.jpg

that's pretty crazy how much the city has changed.