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  #81  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2012, 5:50 PM
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Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
Here's a base to work from - a possible rapid transit idea? It would almost entirely be underground. That would then follow Montreal Road and Rideau Street to downtown, and terminate at Blair.

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PROS:
* Rapid transit from both Blair and downtown to La Cite Collegiale, something seriously lacking now
* Rapid transit as well to the Montfort Hospital with the routing going directly underneath their property
* Significant increase in service to Carson Grove and the Brittany Drive area
* Enormous increase in capacity on the corridor
* Considerable cost savings with major reductions or elimination of Routes 12 and 129 and little or no additional bus service needed for CFB Rockcliffe
* Transfer opportunities are maximized at Blair, the Rideau Centre and along the route itself
* Development opportunities are maximized at CFB Rockcliffe with two stations on the site and two stations nearby - able to use them as key nodes

CONS:
* Direct service lost east of the NRC area (i.e. either steps away or a short walk away) - densities are very low though in Rothwell Heights and additional service to Beacon Hill necessary as below
* Additional bus service likely required on Route 124 and another feeder route (127 extension?) to replace the eastern part of Route 12
* Some walking distance required from Montreal Road between St. Laurent and the NRC area
* High capital costs as the entire line must be underground (the topography in the area supports underground transit).

If a seventh station on that map is warranted, between Granville and St. Laurent (proposed central Vanier station is just west of Granville, but could be shifted to Marier), an additional station could be built at de l'Eglise, and Brittany Station could be moved to beneath Brittany Drive rather than central to the community (downside of that is poor connection with Route 7, which the shown location supports).

Since the route would be entirely (or almost entirely) underground, would it be better to use heavy rail or light rail there? I wonder what the passenger counts on Route 12 overall are now, considering that the ridership would likely more than double as the CFB Rockcliffe area would be high density, and La Cite Collegiale would also likely be much larger and pick off Route 129 ridership.

We've gone from discussing an unlikely enough tram or surface LRT to a highly unlikely subway. It's like Rob Ford and Transit City all over again.

The entire base could be covered by suburban sprawl for a couple of generations and then knocked down again before it would see a subway line reaching it.

We might as well at least keep the discussion within the realm of the vaguely possible. The 2003 TMP did have a surface LRT on Montréal, so at least discussing it again fits in with being "vaguely possible". But a subway? Just not going to happen.
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  #82  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2012, 5:50 PM
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Rapid transit can't easily serve it and even if something comes close it'll still be on the far side of some large parking lots. Somewhere like what is now the Place des Gouverneurs site near Cyrville Station on the other hand would have been right on the Transitway and just as accessible to Orleans, if not more so (and not sure what you mean by Gatineau).
It is considerably simple to take Aviation up to the Rockliffe Parkway which brings us directly to the MacDonald-Cartier Bridge. I guess I mean easy to drive to and from Gatineau, but if you take transit, it's a different story. But if the Aviation Bridge is ever to be built, STO buses (or eventually the possibility of LRT/Rapid Transit) could shuttle people from the RapiBus to the College.

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Originally posted by eternallyme

Since the route would be entirely (or almost entirely) underground, would it be better to use heavy rail or light rail there?
In terms of capacity, both technologies can pretty much carry the same number of people. If we compare Toronto, Montréal and Ottawa (full build out), we all have 150 meter platforms and capacity varies around 40,000 phpd (OT) and 48,000 phpd (MTL). Although heavy rail usually features larger trains (width, not necessarily length) with fewer seats, automated LRT can achieve better frequency (minute and a half vs. two minutes).

I think LRT, as a technology running in a fully grade separated Rapid Transit line, might have the advantage (in Ottawa where we may never achieve the same density as MTL or TO due to height restrictions) because it can take sharper curves and steeper hills, and can use smaller tunnels, cutting the cost of construction.
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  #83  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2012, 5:51 PM
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Rapid transit can't easily serve it and even if something comes close it'll still be on the far side of some large parking lots. Somewhere like what is now the Place des Gouverneurs site near Cyrville Station on the other hand would have been right on the Transitway and just as accessible to Orleans, if not more so (and not sure what you mean by Gatineau).
Look at the picture I posted above - sets it up PERFECTLY for rapid transit, right in the heart of the community.
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  #84  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2012, 5:53 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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We've gone from discussing an unlikely enough tram or surface LRT to a highly unlikely subway. It's like Rob Ford and Transit City all over again.

The entire base could be covered by suburban sprawl for a couple of generations and then knocked down again before it would see a subway line reaching it.

We might as well at least keep the discussion within the realm of the vaguely possible. The 2003 TMP did have a surface LRT on Montréal, so at least discussing it again fits in with being "vaguely possible". But a subway? Just not going to happen.
A surface LRT line in that area is almost impossible due to development constraints - too much expropriation in an established area, especially considering the demographics. It's underground or nothing in that corridor.
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  #85  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2012, 5:56 PM
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Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
Look at the picture I posted above - sets it up PERFECTLY for rapid transit, right in the heart of the community.
Based on the previous plan for the base, I fail to see how it could support rapid transit of any kind based on the type of densities they are discussing. It would appear that Montreal Road would be the better route as it has more destinations along it with the potential for infill and redevelopment.
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  #86  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2012, 6:03 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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Based on the previous plan for the base, I fail to see how it could support rapid transit of any kind based on the type of densities they are discussing. It would appear that Montreal Road would be the better route as it has more destinations along it with the potential for infill and redevelopment.
That would be Canada Lands' problem.
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  #87  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2012, 6:21 PM
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Look at the picture I posted above - sets it up PERFECTLY for rapid transit, right in the heart of the community.
The 'it' in the conversation was the CITÉ Collégiale site. On your drawing, it still ends up being over a quarter kilometre from the line across a parking lot, which is the best that can reasonably be hoped for. Which was precisely my point: it was a poor siting choice for an institution like a college.


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A surface LRT line in that area is almost impossible due to development constraints - too much expropriation in an established area, especially considering the demographics. It's underground or nothing in that corridor.
Well that didn't seem to have been a problem when they put it in the 2003 TMP; here's how they proposed to do it in ORTEP:

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  #88  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2012, 6:36 PM
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Well that didn't seem to have been a problem when they put it in the 2003 TMP; here's how they proposed to do it in ORTEP:

The stations are well placed for a subway, but as a surface line, it adds little capacity considering the mammoth cost of building it. We could just create cheap bus lanes all the way from the Canal to Beacon Hill and run articulated buses every minute to achieve the same result for a fraction of the price (capital cost).

If we are serious about building a modern rapid transit system and intensifying the inner city, it has to be a subway. Once it gets to Aviation, we can either loop to catch the CFB and go back down to Blair, via La Cité or split the line at Aviation, one part going to the CFB (they could plan the redevelopment to leave space for a grade separated rail system and its stations), the other to the College and down to Blair.

I do not want to see the city waste billions on low capacity trams; we took them out in 58’ lets look to the ahead instead of going “Back to the Future”. The city has grown up; it’s time for our leaders mentality to do the same.
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  #89  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2012, 1:19 AM
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The 'it' in the conversation was the CITÉ Collégiale site. On your drawing, it still ends up being over a quarter kilometre from the line across a parking lot, which is the best that can reasonably be hoped for. Which was precisely my point: it was a poor siting choice for an institution like a college.
250m is nothing. Some walk further to their parked cars on Bathgate or even on Rainsford. When I studied there it was easy to walk a few kilometres just from going around the campus. We're talking rapid transit here not a simple bus stop. There's guaranteed ridership at the college with the students who don't own cars. A 250m walk to get downtown in a few minutes is an easy trade-off. Sure it would be nice if the station would be integrated directly with the college but I don't think that will be a deal breaker.
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  #90  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2012, 2:09 AM
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La Cité Collégiale's peculiar location dates back to 1955 when the location first opened as a Roman Catholic seminary. This was a time of the post-war baby boom and the tremendous expansion of the Roman Catholic Church in Ottawa. Existing seminaries in the city could not handle the fast growth of the church so larger sites were needed in the suburbs. Following a controversial attempt to build a large seminary at Hurdman's Bridge, which is today's RCMP headquarters, the church built seminaries on Carson Road and on Kilborn Avenue just off Bank Street. After the Carson Road site ceased to serve as a seminary, the federal government took it over as its main language training school during the 1970s. When the site was no longer needed for that purpose it became available and the college moved in 1995 from its original location on St. Laurent Boulevard and Conroy Road in the Ottawa Business Park.
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  #91  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2012, 2:16 AM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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250m is nothing. Some walk further to their parked cars on Bathgate or even on Rainsford. When I studied there it was easy to walk a few kilometres just from going around the campus. We're talking rapid transit here not a simple bus stop. There's guaranteed ridership at the college with the students who don't own cars. A 250m walk to get downtown in a few minutes is an easy trade-off. Sure it would be nice if the station would be integrated directly with the college but I don't think that will be a deal breaker.
Not to mention in the future an opportunity would exist for the college to expand towards Bathgate Drive directly into the station. It would be difficult to bring it closer without making it more difficult for Carson Grove (not the highest density but why skip a stop for them since that station would practically eliminate Route 129), the Bathgate/Montreal corner (high-density residential already exists there and more would likely with a station) and the gold mine that is CFB Rockcliffe.
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  #92  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2012, 2:22 AM
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Back to CFB Rockcliffe, using those station locations would allow for instant high-density planning at those key nodes at Bathgate and Codd's. It would be INCREDIBLY transit-oriented (and almost transit-dependant) since there would be poor automobile access.
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  #93  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2012, 3:42 PM
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The big thing for making it transit oriented is that it is designed in such a way that key amenities like a decent super market are present within the development so people can walk to them. Transit is great for longer trips provided it is direct enough, but waiting even 15 minutes for a trip that to drive would probably only take 10 minutes is a really hard sell.

Doing something like groceries on a bus/lrt/subway/mono rail or whatever else someone wants to build tends to be pretty sucky, particularly in Ottawa's climate. It is not good enough to simply build some transit line that gets people to work downtown or something. If people require cars other trips like groceries or weekend outings, what happens is that they buy a car. They have the car. They are paying for the car. They are paying to insure the car. They are paying to fix a car. Well they might as well use the car too. Why pay for transit AND a car. No point. If you need a car, transit loses.
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  #94  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2012, 5:50 PM
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The big thing for making it transit oriented is that it is designed in such a way that key amenities like a decent super market are present within the development so people can walk to them. Transit is great for longer trips provided it is direct enough, but waiting even 15 minutes for a trip that to drive would probably only take 10 minutes is a really hard sell.

Doing something like groceries on a bus/lrt/subway/mono rail or whatever else someone wants to build tends to be pretty sucky, particularly in Ottawa's climate. It is not good enough to simply build some transit line that gets people to work downtown or something. If people require cars other trips like groceries or weekend outings, what happens is that they buy a car. They have the car. They are paying for the car. They are paying to insure the car. They are paying to fix a car. Well they might as well use the car too. Why pay for transit AND a car. No point. If you need a car, transit loses.
Agree with many of your points.

If we want to get people to cut back their car usage we have to make it easy for them to get to major destinations and to have common amneties in the neighbourhood. So some retail will be needed which would probably include a grocery store, pharmacy, cleaners, bank... Otherwise the residents will all hop in their cars and drive over to the retail on Montreal or Beechwood.

It makes little sense for someone in the city should have to take the car to get more milk and bread but it's the reality in many parts of our suburbs.
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  #95  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2012, 6:58 PM
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So...who else here attended the CLC-backed Ideas Fair at the Aviation Museum yesterday?

Impressions?
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  #96  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2012, 7:53 PM
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So...who else here attended the CLC-backed Ideas Fair at the Aviation Museum yesterday?

Impressions?
I didn't go, but this article makes it sound like it'll look like a suburban neighbourhood.

Quote:
Former airbase redevelopment must address roads and traffic

By Maria Cook, The Ottawa Citizen November 26, 2012

How do you insert a small town into the city without overwhelming surrounding neighbourhoods with cars and trucks on roads that are already stressed by traffic?

That’s a key question in converting the former Canadian Forces Base Rockcliffe to a new community.

After a five-year hiatus, planning for the 125-hectare site has resumed. Canada Lands Company (CLC), the crown corporation that owns the land, will host a public consultation on Monday.

“We want to engage the community not only to identify issues, but also to give us ideas about how those issues can be resolved,” says Don Schultz, CLC director of real estate, Rockcliffe.

CLC is inviting thoughts on how to manage traffic, develop housing for a wide range of people and bring employment. Because the project will take 20 years to complete, they want ideas on interim use of land, as well as suggested names for the area.

Located 5.5 kilometres east of Parliament Hill, the former military base is the largest development parcel within the Greenbelt. It sits on an escarpment overlooking the Ottawa River valley, east of St. Laurent Boulevard and north of Montreal Road. The site is ringed by mature neighbourhoods such as Rothwell Heights, Fairhaven, Thorncliffe Park, Manor Park, Rockcliffe Park and Vanier.

Jane Brammer, president of the Rothwell Heights Property Owners Association, says the big issue for existing communities boils down to “3-Ts” — traffic, transportation and transit.

“These residents will be relying on surrounding road linkages that are already heavily used,” says Brammer. “The 3-Ts are going to be a problem that cannot be effectively addressed without some innovative thinking.”

In 2007, a land claim by the Algonquins of Ontario blocked sale of the property by the Department of National Defence to CLC. The $27.2-million sale went through last spring after the Algonquins struck a $10-million deal with the federal government.

Five years ago, the CLC had a master plan for a mixed-use community that included 4,500 to 6,000 houses and apartments. It envisioned 10,000 to 15,000 residents, and aspired to be a model of sustainability and contemporary urban design.

That plan has been abandoned. “We will be respecting the broad principles of sustainability that the public supported, like walkability, protection of open spaces, positive streetscape environments and sidewalks that favour human activity rather than cater to the automobile,” says Schultz.

“I’d like to think we can move beyond neo-traditional town planning and design to more contemporary forms.”

The greatest change of the past five years is the City of Ottawa’s plan for light rail. CLC was counting on light rail along Montreal Road. But the eastern route has shifted to the Transitway corridor south of Ogilvie Road, far from the proposed development. The closest station will be at Blair Road.

Density is now an open question, says Schultz.

There could be fewer than the 6,000 residences the city’s official plan assigns to the site. Or there could be anywhere from 6,000 to 11,000 units.

“Transit and transportation is going to determine the intensity of development,” says Schultz. “If there are really strong solutions that emerge, that can have an effect on how much development can happen. The more enhanced the transit, the greater number of residential units.”

CLC is talking to city officials about providing rapid bus service between the site and the Blair Road transit station. It plans to approach the National Capital Commission about gaining access to the Aviation Parkway. Hemlock and Codd’s roads are currently the only access roads.

“I’d like to think trams or streetcars could be part of the equation,” Schultz said. He imagines trams on Blair Road as well as on Hemlock Road, Beechwood Avenue and St. Patrick Street where there are “significant traffic concerns.”

In addition, the district will include low-rise office buildings, in hopes of having residents work on site.

A wild card is the interprovincial bridge. If the NCC chooses Kettle Island, turning Aviation Parkway into a truck route, that will affect connections from the old base to the Aviation and eastern parkways, says Ottawa architect Barry Padolsky, a member of the previous design team.

“If you build a bridge and connect the Queensway with it, there are a lot of implications. How the Rockcliffe lands will be planned to cope with that is another big issue.”

CLC hopes to submit a community design plan to the city for approval in spring 2014. Before offering lots to builders in 2016, it would put in streets, services and public space.

Though the company would like to sell to a variety of smaller builders, it is not averse to a single large builder. As part of a participation agreement, the Algonquins of Ontario have right of first refusal.

Schultz foresees a mix of housing, including single-detached, rowhouses and stacked townhouses. Condo and rental apartment buildings would rise four to eight storeys. Affordable housing is also on the agenda.

“Tall buildings aren’t out of the question,” Schultz says, but Ottawa developers have suggested highrise isn’t viable outside downtown.

CLC will look to developers for guidance for the first phases “so our design is informed by what market conditions tell us. In the short term, the real estate market is an important consideration.” The trend seems to be for smaller, affordable units, he says.

Last summer, CLC invited six Canadian teams to apply for the job of creating an urban design, a landscape plan and architectural guidelines. It hired Toronto firms Brook McIlroy and Janet Rosenberg and Associates Landscape Architects.

“We’re looking at low-to-mid-rise forms to take advantage of the topography and not lose the sense of the rolling landscape and mature tree canopy,” says urban designer Anne McIlroy.

“Parking is something we need to look at aggressively if we’re going to make this a new community that is defined by walkable precincts and a network of paths and cycle trails.”

Landscape architect Janet Rosenberg says there will be greenery throughout, including a large central park, medium sized parks and small parkettes. Forested areas will be preserved; stormwater kept on site for reuse. “The land is really going to dictate what happens.”
http://www.canada.com/business/Forme...775/story.html
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  #97  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2012, 8:14 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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CLC is talking to city officials about providing rapid bus service between the site and the Blair Road transit station.
Didn't I say this just recently?

When you look at the location and Blair Station, this is a very round about way into the city, but it is typical of how we plan everything. Make people want to use their car.
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  #98  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2012, 8:19 PM
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Ya, nearly every Transitway station has been built in a giant parking lot. God forbid we serve the city.
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  #99  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2012, 8:25 PM
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this is a very round about way into the city, but it is typical of how we plan everything. Make people want to use their car.
whilst musing vaguely about a desire for trams down any given busy corridor.
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  #100  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2012, 8:28 PM
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whilst musing vaguely about a desire for trams down any given busy corridor.
Like the ones we took out in 58'. This city is incapable of moving forward.
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