Whitecaps Stadium | 15,000 seats | proposed

[LeftCoaster]

haha I stand corrected

[officedweller]

Even if the Seabus Terminal is relocated between Canada Place and the Stadium, the berth would still be long enough for a cruise ship berth.
When Canada Place was extended a few years back, the east berth was made very very long - probably in anticipation of the filling in of the land side of the berth - i.e. for a Portside (Concert convention centre) type proposal.
There could be clearance issues for the seabus to pass by the cruise ship, but that's probably not a big issue if they dock the cruise ships at the north end of the berth.
I don't think they actively use the east berth for two smaller ships, though they may do so on occasion.

[Distill3d]

this is the way i see it (in crude Paint format):



i'd have no issue with relocating the seabus to anywhere in this area.

[jlousa]

Acutally they dock 2 ships on the eastern side quite regularly. They can dock 2 large ships on the eastern side, 2 small ones on the west side and a medium one on the north side. Mind you they have never had 5 ships docked at the same time at Canada place usally they'll have one at Ballentyne, but they do have 4 ships docked there a few times each session.
I don't think they would need a walking sidewalk if they move it to the north end of the stadium, it is already a bit of a walk now, an extra 125-150 metres won't be too bad, especially if there is retail along the way it will liven up the walk and make it seem shorter.

[Distill3d]

Originally Posted by jlousa

I don't think they would need a walking sidewalk if they move it to the north end of the stadium, it is already a bit of a walk now, an extra 125-150 metres won't be too bad, especially if there is retail along the way it will liven up the walk and make it seem shorter.

Agreed. thats the one thing the SeaBus terminal at Waterfront has been missing. that skywalk is amongst the more boring ventures in all of Vancouver.

[officedweller]

I don't think retail would survive along a seabus/stadium walkway.
TO's Skywalk to the Dome is pretty much closed up. People walking to the seabus are more occupied with catching the next sailing (and not waiting 15 minutes for the next one) than shopping (i.e. retail may work on the dock, not along the corridor).
If the corridor also provides a connection from the CP Station (WCE) to Waterfront Centre and Canada Place, there may be added pedestrian traffic (Skytrain already has a direct connection to Waterfront Centre), but I don't know if there would be enough to sustain retail.
Even streetfront retail near BC Place (Wilson's, Courtnalls's/Copper Pot/Doghouse/Pound) has trouble staying in business.

[Distill3d]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I don't think retail would survive along a seabus/stadium walkway.
TO's Skywalk to the Dome is pretty much closed up. People walking to the seabus are more occupied with catching the next sailing (and not waiting 15 minutes for the next one) than shopping (i.e. retail may work on the dock, not along the corridor).
If the corridor also provides a connection from the CP Station (WCE) to Waterfront Centre and Canada Place, there may be added pedestrian traffic (Skytrain already has a direct connection to Waterfront Centre), but I don't know if there would be enough to sustain retail.
Even streetfront retail near BC Place (Wilson's, Courtnalls's/Copper Pot/Doghouse/Pound) has trouble staying in business.

thats when you put in soccer or sports specific retail along the way. i mean seriously, even some historical pictures of the growth of downtown Warburg Alberta would be more interesting to see then staring at nothingness for that distance.

[officedweller]

I think the sports oriented retailers were there in TO only because they couldn't get general merchandise retailers to lease the space. The sports retailers were the last resort.

The view of the railyards is pretty interesting along the current walkway - they could do the same for the new walkway - views of the yards and of the water (i.e. build it along the side of the stadium, not directly underneath it).

[Distill3d]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I think the sports oriented retailers were there in TO only because they couldn't get general merchandise retailers to lease the space. The sports retailers were the last resort.

you'd think it would be a first resort considering your building a connection to a stadium. sports related retail and maybe a sports restaurant/bar near the stadium would be the way to go.

[officedweller]

Yeah, but then you're catering to a limited market. It's probably bad enough that you are dependent on the flows generated by stadium traffic, but then during off hours limiting your appeal to sports fans may not be the way to go. I think ideally, you'd go for a business that appeals to both crowds.
The issue here is really the isolation of the location. An extreme example of that would be the failed food fair that used to be at the end of (pre-expansion) Canada Place - or even International Village.
If and when an office tower is built above the tracks, then that would probably provide enough lunch hour pedestrian traffic to sustain retail businesses.

[Distill3d]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Yeah, but then you're catering to a limited market. It's probably bad enough that you are dependent on the flows generated by stadium traffic, but then during off hours limiting your appeal to sports fans may not be the way to go. I think ideally, you'd go for a business that appeals to both crowds.
The issue here is really the isolation of the location. An extreme example of that would be the failed food fair that used to be at the end of (pre-expansion) Canada Place - or even International Village.
If and when an office tower is built above the tracks, then that would probably provide enough lunch hour pedestrian traffic to sustain retail businesses.

some of the lunch crowd is already served by the Waterfront Station building on Cordova (many times when i was working in downtown Van i would stop in the subway there for lunch, and the starbucks for my morning coffee), but i can totally understand that retail shouldn't only be limited to the likes of sports fans.

problem is though, you're having a stadium built right there. the direct needs of the general population tend to be neglected when that happens. everything is gearred more towards the stadium patrons then the businessman. which is understandable given the circumstances.

the area in question here is not hurting for the lunch crowd and retail.

[SFUVancouver]

I went to the Whitecaps stadium open house and I too agree it was a botched job. If it weren't tacked onto the CoV's HUB area transportation study the Whitecaps component of the open house would have been laughable. I spoke to a few people, including one of the development managers for the Whitecaps about the revised plan and was met with very few solid answers. -What will happen to the Seabus terminal? -Will there be new parking incorporated into the stadium? -What will the stadium look like? -Has anyone considered the impact on the new site if open-air events take place while a cruise ship idles away for hours on end? (the answer is no, nobody she knew of had even considered it)

I was interviewed by CTV and CKNW and made it clear that I like the idea of the stadium and I like its proximity to transit but I just don't know enough to make up my mind of how it will fit into the area or what will happen to the rest of the developable land along the waterfront.

[officedweller]

Probably depends on the impact of the extra distance involved (i.e. at the stadium would be a fair distance, whereas immediately behind the CP Station would be convenient), whether its underground or at grade, in a "fare-paid" area and whether there are alternate access points (i.e. from an extended Canada Place Way).
I wonder whether they still plan on having Abbott Street cross the railway tracks?

[jlousa]

The cruise ship idling factor will soon be a non-issue, VPA (Vancouver Port Authority) is inacting new regulations that prohited the cruise ships/cargo/container ships from running their engines while moored. They will connect to the grid and use electric power. The grids have already been upgraded, Delta ports just finished up also. Not sure when the regulations take place though.
I think retail could work along that walkway, I'm picturing a walkway covered in glass with retail to the eastside and a glass wall on the west side, the fare paid zone would only apply at the very end so not to limit the traffic. It would probably have limited traffic unless they find a way to connect to Canada Place and Granville 200. Maybe they could sell mooses wearing RCMP uniforms and t-shirts that say I love Vancouver. Enableing gastown to open additional interesting retail. Heck it would be a better location for tourism Vancouver then where they are now.
Haven't heard of any plans for an Abbott crossing, just the Carrall greenway crossing.

[Distill3d]

Originally Posted by jlousa

I think retail could work along that walkway, I'm picturing a walkway covered in glass with retail to the eastside and a glass wall on the west side, the fare paid zone would only apply at the very end so not to limit the traffic. It would probably have limited traffic unless they find a way to connect to Canada Place and Granville 200. Maybe they could sell mooses wearing RCMP uniforms and t-shirts that say I love Vancouver. Enableing gastown to open additional interesting retail. Heck it would be a better location for tourism Vancouver then where they are now.

finally someone else who sees the point here...

[towerguy3]

Interesting new renderings below. Is the proposal to increase to 30,000 still on the table cause looking at the design I can't see where the other 15,000 seats would go other than building another tier of seats on top, but this location doesn't seem to allow much room. It's a bit like GM Place sandwiched between the two viaducts:

http://www.whitecapsfc.com/stadium/w...nt/renderings/

[Canadian Mind]

not alot of room for further development... I'm wondering about the possibility of building a tower out on the water, and have a tunnel leading to it for parking, and a walkway to the stadium or Crab park for pedestrians.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by towerguy3

Interesting new renderings below. Is the proposal to increase to 30,000 still on the table cause looking at the design I can't see where the other 15,000 seats would go other than building another tier of seats on top, but this location doesn't seem to allow much room. It's a bit like GM Place sandwiched between the two viaducts:

http://www.whitecapsfc.com/stadium/w...nt/renderings/

actually, that rendering shows two tiers on the west and east stands...meaning this rendering could be a revised proposal to build a 30,000 seat stadium right from the start.

and the plan to increase capacity from 15,000 to 30,000 has always been to add a second tier on the east and west stands.

[leftside]

I was walking in Gastown today along Water Street and mentioned to my friend how much Gastown had improved the last 4 years - especially Water Street. Lots of small designer stores, high quality restaurants and low-rise heritage buildings restored. What's the last thing a historic area such as Gastown needs? A huge friggin stadium plonked on the waterfront with no consideration of the surroundings.

I've supported every development in Gastown, but I'll be opposing this one. I'm a big soccer fan, but don't want the stadium in Gastown. There must be better locations? Why not east of Main, south of Terminal? Great Skytrain access and great vehicle access. If you take the Skytrain from Main to Commercial you`ll see there are plenty of good locations for a stadium.

This would also be a waste of prime waterfront. I`d love to see another Granville Island type market down there instead. That would complement Gastown much better.

[Lee_Haber8]

Originally Posted by leftside

I was walking in Gastown today along Water Street and mentioned to my friend how much Gastown had improved the last 4 years - especially Water Street. Lots of small designer stores, high quality restaurants and low-rise heritage buildings restored. What's the last thing a historic area such as Gastown needs? A huge friggin stadium plonked on the waterfront with no consideration of the surroundings.

I've supported every development in Gastown, but I'll be opposing this one. I'm a big soccer fan, but don't want the stadium in Gastown. There must be better locations? Why not east of Main, south of Terminal? Great Skytrain access and great vehicle access. If you take the Skytrain from Main to Commercial you`ll see there are plenty of good locations for a stadium.

This would also be a waste of prime waterfront. I`d love to see another Granville Island type market down there instead. That would complement Gastown much better.

With all due respect, the Whitecaps stadium is being built in an area that is nothing more than a parking lot right. It is not in gastown, there is a big railyard that makes a very clear distinction between the two.

It's too early to say what the stadium surroundings will look like, these are very early renderings. These are just to give an idea how the stadium will fit into the site. I think that any final design will have retail and life and street level to make the area more lively. As for potential other uses, nobody else besides the Whitecaps has come up with a concrete proposal for the area so thinking about projects which might be better there is pointless. For your specific example, it doesn't make sense to have a public market in a location which is isolated right now - it might make more sense right in the middle of Gastown.

There's a reason why the Whitecaps are so determined to build in this area, because it is absolutely the best location for a stadium in terms of geography and accessibility to public transport. Unlike previous proposals this one isn't right up against Gastown and poses few real technical challenges like building on top of a railyard or seabus terminal did. This is a no-brainer for city-council , now let's build it!