Speech pattern and typographical variations across Canada

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Pretty shocking as NB was always the brightest spot in the Canadian francophonie (outside Quebec).

NB is in a "wierd" place right now (read: drastic flux)... outside of Quebec it's definitely a bastion of the French language in Canada, but the numbers jibe with what I'm seeing. I believe I mentioned in the past that even Shediac is feeling more "anglo" than previous, and I don't doubt the stats would bear that out, if I had 'em. If you go a bit farther north (Cocagne, Buctouche) or East (Cape Pele, Shemoque) you find some more solid French enclaves, but as I mentioned before... many of the folks that are primarily "true" (read: not Chiac) speakers are getting up there in years... and often can't read much French at all, though they speak it all of the time. That demographic was relatively poorly educated, so you can't fault them, but they really are being left behind... their kids and grand-kids hammer out Chiac, can flip to good English fairly easily, but would probably have some trouble with the French of a generation ago.

School educated bilingual kids in the city (Moncton/Dieppe) generally have better (proper) grasp of both languages, but suffer from the issues mentioned by previous posters... many have one unilingual anglo parent and English is proving to be the path of least resistance for them as they continue on into careers... although they at least can read French, so that doesn't hurt.

I'm a bit surprised primarily-French-at-home has dropped below 30% province-wide, but I probably shouldn't be. I just didn't realize it had gotten that far that fast.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Vorkuta

NB is in a "wierd" place right now (read: drastic flux)... outside of Quebec it's definitely a bastion of the French language in Canada, but the numbers jibe with what I'm seeing. I believe I mentioned in the past that even Shediac is feeling more "anglo" than previous, and I don't doubt the stats would bear that out, if I had 'em. If you go a bit farther north (Cocagne, Buctouche) or East (Cape Pele, Shemoque) you find some more solid French enclaves, but as I mentioned before... many of the folks that are primarily "true" (read: not Chiac) speakers are getting up there in years... and often can't read much French at all, though they speak it all of the time. That demographic was relatively poorly educated, so you can't fault them, but they really are being left behind... their kids and grand-kids hammer out Chiac, can flip to good English fairly easily, but would probably have some trouble with the French of a generation ago.

Knowledge of Official Languages (Shediac Town & Parish)
ENG ONLY/FR ONLY/BILINGUAL/NEITHER (TOTAL)
1996: 1,720/635/6,135/0 (8,490)
2006: 2,205/640/7,100/10 (9,955)
2011: 2,410/595/7,605/0 (10,605)

Knowledge of Official Languages (Beaubassin-Est)
ENG ONLY/FR ONLY/BILINGUAL/NEITHER (TOTAL)
1996: 375/720/4,980/0
2006: 670/635/5,090/0
2011: 795/520/4,880/5

In Shediac (Town) those who only know English have increased from 13% to 15% during this timeframe. In Shediac (Parish) English-only has increased from 28% to 31%. French-only numbers are dropping rapidly.

In Beaubassin-Est it's more of the same. In the fifteen years between 1996 and 2011 the proportion of people who speak only English has doubled from 6% to 13% while the proportion of people who are bilingual has decreased from 82% to 79%. It's pretty remarkable stuff. Cap-Pelé is seeing similar figures to Beaubassin within the village itself.

Your observations are surely backed up by the StatCan data. Essentially the Northumberland coast from Cap-Pelé, through Shediac, Bouctouche, and Richibucto are steadily becoming more and more Anglophone. Saint-Antoine, Saint-Paul, and Dundas aren't immune to this either. Saint-Paul's population has dropped from 980 to 865 in fifteen years with English-only speakers increasing from 180 to 240. English only has increased in Saint-Paul by 9.5% in those 15 years as the bilingual numbers have dropped by 11.5%.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Your observations are surely backed up by the StatCan data. Essentially the Northumberland coast from Cap-Pelé, through Shediac, Bouctouche, and Richibucto are steadily becoming more and more Anglophone. Saint-Antoine, Saint-Paul, and Dundas aren't immune to this either. Saint-Paul's population has dropped from 980 to 865 in fifteen years with English-only speakers increasing from 180 to 240. English only has increased in Saint-Paul by 9.5% in those 15 years as the bilingual numbers have dropped by 11.5%.

Add to the mix that there have been a significant number of people buying up real estate along that stretch and converting old (local) family cottages to large-to-huge beach-front monsters. These aren't just people from Moncton and environs... they're Americans, Germans, etc. Travel down some of the private lanes along that stretch and you'll see those old (often run down) family cottages interspersed with gated, tennis-courted, in-ground-pool'd palaces. This demographic is almost entirely Anglophone.

From this to this, basically.

[MonctonRad]

Maybe the province knew something when they built the (replacement) anglophone Moncton High School out on the northern fringes of Moncton near the Kent County line rather than in the downtown core.........

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Maybe the province knew something when the built the (replacement) anglophone Moncton High School out on the northern fringes of Moncton near the Kent County line rather than in the downtown core.........

The whole situation provides a thought-provoking microcosm for study in the effects of assimilation, albeit over a long period of time. There can be no doubt that NB, as a whole, is "anglicizing"... even in some of it's most Francophone enclaves (at different rates, of course). Considering that NB is the only real significant population of Francophones outside Quebec, it seems the latter might be "right" to be worried and a bit paranoid... I mean... if you can't seem to stem the tide in a place as bilingual as NB, how else do you do it?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Vorkuta

The whole situation provides a thought-provoking microcosm for study in the effects of assimilation, albeit over a long period of time. There can be no doubt that NB, as a whole, is "anglicizing"... even in some of it's most Francophone enclaves (at different rates, of course). Considering that NB is the only real significant population of Francophones outside Quebec,

In percentage terms yes, but in sheer numbers Ontario has twice as many francophones as NB does: around 500 k vs. 230 k (roughly).

Franco-Ontarians are beset by even higher assimilation rates (actually much higher - two to three times higher in %) than NB Acadians, but at least the French speaking population in Ontario is stable due to modest but steady in-migration from francophones within Canada and from abroad.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Vorkuta

Quebec, it seems the latter might be "right" to be worried and a bit paranoid... I mean... if you can't seem to stem the tide in a place as bilingual as NB, how else do you do it?

I used to be in the fairly hardline camp of those who thought Bill 101, etc. was a solution in search of a problem. But after looking into it for a while I came to a conclusion that that wasn't the case at all. This was quite some time ago but history continues to prove me right.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Case in point from last night, while playing a game at New Year's Eve party:

"Tu dois piquer quelqu'un pour jouer avec toi"

Wow, I wouldn't....

Actually, my best guess (since it's a safe bet you don't have to literally sting someone as part of the game) would've been "you have to steal [a card, a token, etc.] from another player", not "you have to pick someone as your partner".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Wow, I wouldn't....

Actually, my best guess (since it's a safe bet you don't have to literally sting someone as part of the game) would've been "you have to steal [a card, a token, etc.] from another player", not "you have to pick someone as your partner".

Je n'ai rien inventé.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I used to be in the fairly hardline camp of those who thought Bill 101, etc. was a solution in search of a problem. But after looking into it for a while I came to a conclusion that that wasn't the case at all. This was quite some time ago but history continues to prove me right.

As much as it may or may not be relevant i've been doing research into NB language statistics and figured I should do the border regions around the province for comparables. Bilingualism is increasing across the board in places like Rimouski, Temiscouata, and Matapedia. As these total populations decline (save for Rimouski) the franco-only speakers are being replaced by bilingual speakers. Flip down to the southern border and bilingualism rates in Cumberland/Colchester Nova Scotia are declining. I haven't done the Acadian areas of NS yet but i'm expecting similar numbers to Northern NB.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by ue

I'm not sure if there's a better thread for this so...

I'm a bit curious about the Anglophone population of Quebec City. The story usually focuses on the larger Anglo population in Montreal and the subsequent mass exodus starting in the '70s. All I've read about it in QC is that it was smaller, albeit significant (a lot of Old Quebec's buildings were built by the English) but that over time, the Anglos in Quebec City were assimilated into the Francophone population.

I'm curious of why things played out differently in Quebec City. In Montreal, rather than assimilating, Anglos left, or defiantly stood their ground, perhaps learning French over time, but still speaking in English at home. Was it simply that QC's Anglos were smaller in number, perhaps more isolated from English Canada? Are there any "Anglo" strongholds in the city, like Montreal's Mile-End?

One major difference between the two cities that explains the continued/increased usage of English in neighborhoods and families is that by the time of the later mass migration waves (of Italians, Greeks, Eastern Europeans, Jews, etc. who all chose English over French as their language upon disembarking in Canada) the "big city" that was a magnet for these immigrants was overwhelmingly Montreal by that time - I mean overwhelmingly over Quebec City, not necessarily as a Canadian destination over a rival like Toronto - as the gap between the two cities had grown significant by then.

English in Quebec City didn't really benefit from that big boost / new infusion of life.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Je n'ai rien inventé.

Je te crois tout à fait!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

As much as it may or may not be relevant i've been doing research into NB language statistics and figured I should do the border regions around the province for comparables. Bilingualism is increasing across the board in places like Rimouski, Temiscouata, and Matapedia. As these total populations decline (save for Rimouski) the franco-only speakers are being replaced by bilingual speakers. Flip down to the southern border and bilingualism rates in Cumberland/Colchester Nova Scotia are decreasing.

It's similar to areas in Northern NB which are losing franco-only speakers as well.

The number of French-English bilinguals is increasing all over Quebec. But there is a significant difference compared to SE NB (for example) in that the number of people using their English skills to partake in wider society is not really going up. In Quebec, learning English is just an additional skill in your personal toolbox. It's not as much of an identity marker or a behavioural definer like it might be outside the province.

In fact, this is a bit of a problem for the anglophone community in Quebec as increasingly, many people who speak English (often better than French) aren't really invested in the community's future. They're often linguistically "loose".

They file their tax return in English and read the English side of the cereal box. They watch TV and listen to music and read books mostly in English. But they increasingly send their kids to French school, speak French to the dépanneur clerk and the bus driver, socialize in French with a bit of English here and there with their friends and neighbours, etc. And these are often people of anglo origin with names like Margaret Holmes.

I know TONS of people like this.

Actually, the kids of one person like this are watching a movie, in French, in my basement right now as I write this.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

One major difference between the two cities that explains the continued/increased usage of English in neighborhoods and families is that by the time of the later mass migration waves (of Italians, Greeks, Eastern Europeans, Jews, etc. who all chose English over French as their language upon disembarking in Canada) the "big city" that was a magnet for these immigrants was overwhelmingly Montreal by that time - I mean overwhelmingly over Quebec City, not necessarily as a Canadian destination over a rival like Toronto - as the gap between the two cities had grown significant by then.

English in Quebec City didn't really benefit from that big boost / new infusion of life.

At one point in the mid 1800s, I believe Quebec City was around 40% anglophone. But it was always more of a "way station" (lieu de passage) for people from the British Isles. Who eventually headed to points west and south. Given its status as a major port for ships arriving from across the station.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Knowledge of Official Languages (Shediac Town & Parish)
ENG ONLY/FR ONLY/BILINGUAL/NEITHER (TOTAL)
1996: 1,720/635/6,135/0 (8,490)
2006: 2,205/640/7,100/10 (9,955)
2011: 2,410/595/7,605/0 (10,605)

Knowledge of Official Languages (Beaubassin-Est)
ENG ONLY/FR ONLY/BILINGUAL/NEITHER (TOTAL)
1996: 375/720/4,980/0
2006: 670/635/5,090/0
2011: 795/520/4,880/5

In Shediac (Town) those who only know English have increased from 13% to 15% during this timeframe. In Shediac (Parish) English-only has increased from 28% to 31%. French-only numbers are dropping rapidly.

In Beaubassin-Est it's more of the same. In the fifteen years between 1996 and 2011 the proportion of people who speak only English has doubled from 6% to 13% while the proportion of people who are bilingual has decreased from 82% to 79%. It's pretty remarkable stuff. Cap-Pelé is seeing similar figures to Beaubassin within the village itself.

Your observations are surely backed up by the StatCan data. Essentially the Northumberland coast from Cap-Pelé, through Shediac, Bouctouche, and Richibucto are steadily becoming more and more Anglophone. Saint-Antoine, Saint-Paul, and Dundas aren't immune to this either. Saint-Paul's population has dropped from 980 to 865 in fifteen years with English-only speakers increasing from 180 to 240. English only has increased in Saint-Paul by 9.5% in those 15 years as the bilingual numbers have dropped by 11.5%.

This mirrors what's going on in Ontario's Prescott-Russell counties between Ottawa and Montreal.

It was about 85% francophone as recently as two decades or so ago. Now it's about 65% francophone. The eastern portions remain quite francophone whereas the western areas closer to Ottawa are increasingly anglo.

Ottawa's Dieppe, Orleans, is now within Ottawa's city limits. It transitioned from a francophone community to a primarily anglophone community in the late 80s and early 90s. It's only about 25% francophone today.

Other historically francophone areas outside Ottawa city limits in Prescott-Russell but close enough like Rockland and Embrun are set to become majority anglophone within the next 10-15 years I'd say as they within commuting distance of the capital city and more affordable.

Gatineau is mostly holding its own in terms of language, obviously due to the fact that it's in Quebec.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

One major difference between the two cities that explains the continued/increased usage of English in neighborhoods and families is that by the time of the later mass migration waves (of Italians, Greeks, Eastern Europeans, Jews, etc. who all chose English over French as their language upon disembarking in Canada) the "big city" that was a magnet for these immigrants was overwhelmingly Montreal by that time - I mean overwhelmingly over Quebec City, not necessarily as a Canadian destination over a rival like Toronto - as the gap between the two cities had grown significant by then.

English in Quebec City didn't really benefit from that big boost / new infusion of life.

Also, most anglophones in Montreal today aren't of British Isles origin. The most common origins for "anglos" in the city are actually Ashkenazi Jewish and Italian, according to the anglo rights group Alliance Quebec.

The direct descendants of the golden era Quebec anglos who built all that stuff in western Montreal along Sherbrooke St., and also in cities like Sherbrooke, are very predominantly living in places like Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver, Boston and New York today. It's no joke.

[Acajack]

This was in the francophone media a bit last week. Not too much that's surprising in there, except maybe the stark difference on the issue of whether French is "endangered":

The survey found 74 per cent of French-speaking Canadians think French is threatened, compared with only 34 per cent of anglophones.

There was no significant difference between bilingual anglophones (35 per cent) and unilingual anglophones (34 per cent) on whether French is threatened in Canada.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/lo...096/story.html

Oh yeah, and this article doesn't mention it but it was reported that the survey found that around half of Canadian anglophones thought French wasn't the most useful second language for them to learn, and that they'd prefer Mandarin or Spanish.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This was in the francophone media a bit last week. Not too much that's surprising in there, except maybe the stark difference on the issue of whether French is "endangered":

The survey found 74 per cent of French-speaking Canadians think French is threatened, compared with only 34 per cent of anglophones.

There was no significant difference between bilingual anglophones (35 per cent) and unilingual anglophones (34 per cent) on whether French is threatened in Canada.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/lo...096/story.html

Oh yeah, and this article doesn't mention it but it was reported that the survey found that around half of Canadian anglophones thought French wasn't the most useful second language for them to learn, and that they'd prefer Mandarin or Spanish.

I don't find that result surprising - for the majority of Canadian Anglophones, there would be no "resonance" to a question like that - the fallback response would be "no" because there is nothing in their experience that would lead them to "yes" (many would likely never have given it a thought until the question was asked). In fact, to the extent that they've formed an impression of Quebec via the media's coverage of Quebec, and of federal politics, the "no" would likely be reinforced.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I don't find that result surprising - for the majority of Canadian Anglophones, there would be no "resonance" to a question like that - the fallback response would be "no" because there is nothing in their experience that would lead them to "yes" (many would likely never have given it a thought until the question was asked). In fact, to the extent that they've formed an impression of Quebec via the media's coverage of Quebec, and of federal politics, the "no" would likely be reinforced.

I guess, although part of the national discourse for ages has been how French is threatened and blablabla, all of which supposedly justifies stuff like Bill 101.

Perhaps it's fallen on deaf ears - not a surprise as you say. Many of those ears were likely already deaf in the 1960s though...

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I guess, although part of the national discourse for ages has been how French is threatened and blablabla, all of which supposedly justifies stuff like Bill 101.

Perhaps it's fallen on deaf ears - not a surprise as you say. Many of those ears were likely already deaf in the 1960s though...

It has been an overwhelmingly Quebec-centric debate, I think. It has perhaps been an issue for Anglo elites/academics, but for most Anglophone Canadians, I don't think it has ever even "fallen", let alone on deaf ears. In fact, I suspect that many would assume that French has never been stronger in Canada. There have been regional echos (I think of the Monfort Hospital debate in Eastern Ontario, for example) and I suspect New Brunswickers might have more awareness in general, but that's about it. Ottawa, as the heart of "official bilingualism" would be a special case in terms of general awareness. It's just too far removed from most people's lived experience to have much resonance. Of course, there are also those who either don't care about the fate of French in Canada or are hostile, but that's another issue.