Federal Government & Politics | Election 2021 FORUM POLL

[Hali87]

Re: Western Alienation

Something that I wonder about a lot is where the Atlantic provinces fit into the "Western Alienated" worldview.

It's obvious in that type of discussion that when people in "The West" talk about "The East", they generally mean Ontario + Quebec.

But many of these same people will have a firm stance of "No ______ east (or west) of the Man/Ont border!"

There are various issues (not all of them) that could reasonably be framed as the two Laurentian provinces vs the ROC. But there's never "ROC alienation", it's always "The West" vs. "The East".

Do people of this mindset normally tend to:

A - view the Atlantic provinces as a part of the centre of power?
B - see us as distinct from Ont/Que, but want even less to do with us?
C - forget that there are other provinces east of Quebec?
D - other?


(this isn't some kind of offended "gotcha" thing, I'm legitimately curious whether anyone thinks these things through - they rarely seem to come up)

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

my feed is full of it, I grew up in NE BC and they vote Liberals Provincially and Conservatives federally and don't understand why they work their asses off so Quebecers can live off their money.

Canada is run by an Eastern Dictatorship and unless BC gets proportional representation we need to separate is their mantra.

Here is what one woman wrote about some comments about why/how did Trudeau win? She is also an anti-vaxxer

I had commented the West separating would just be swallowed up by the USA after she had posted some crazy rant and then she followed up with this.

and this

and this

Her comments are so enlightening.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Re: Western Alienation

Something that I wonder about a lot is where the Atlantic provinces fit into the "Western Alienated" worldview.

It's obvious in that type of discussion that when people in "The West" talk about "The East", they generally mean Ontario + Quebec.

But many of these same people will have a firm stance of "No ______ east (or west) of the Man/Ont border!"

There are various issues (not all of them) that could reasonably be framed as the two Laurentian provinces vs the ROC. But there's never "ROC alienation", it's always "The West" vs. "The East".

Do people of this mindset normally tend to:

A - view the Atlantic provinces as a part of the centre of power?
B - see us as distinct from Ont/Que, but want even less to do with us?
C - forget that there are other provinces east of Quebec?
D - other?


(this isn't some kind of offended "gotcha" thing, I'm legitimately curious whether anyone thinks these things through - they rarely seem to come up)

I probably won't answer your question directly, but having travelled extensively in Western Canada for work and pleasure, and discussed this topic with many Westerners around boardroom tables, restaurant place settings, barstools and online, I'd say that Atlantic Canada doesn't factor into the equation much at all in their minds.

Overall, you guys get off scot free even though equalization per capita is way higher in Atlantic Canada than in Quebec. (Manitoba's per capita equalization is also higher than Quebec's, actually.)

Ontario does get crapped on of course because it has the most population, the biggest city and the capital located within it.

But nothing comes close to the venom directed at Quebec.

This hate is supposedly explained (justified) by a few things:

That while equalization per capita to Quebec is the lowest of the have-nots (often by a huge margin), the total number of dollars is by far the biggest. Due to Quebec's large population.

While Atlantic Canada is a huge recipient per capita, at least they never tried to separate and break up the country.

I'd add one that no one ever refers to: Alberta in particular has a fairly decent share of its population made of people from Atlantic Canada (especially Newfoundland) and their descendants.

Which of course leads us to the elephant in the room that probably explains a lot of the acrimony which is that Quebec is "French" (sic) whereas Atlantic Canada is not. Or at least is not perceived as such.

[electricmodes]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Which of course leads us to the elephant in the room that probably explains a lot of the acrimony which is that Quebec is "French" (sic) whereas Atlantic Canada is not. Or at least is not perceived as such.

It is exactly this. I grew up in Saskatchewan, have lived in Alberta, British Columbia and Ontario and am now back in Saskatchewan. My entire life growing up everyone moaned about "the French". It is a deeply rooted, generational hatred for Quebec. These people use the old transfer payments argument as the public face of their hatred, but anyone with half a brain knows what's really going on. I mean really, the average Joe in the West knows nothing about the simple aspects of federal fiscal policy, never mind the convoluted transfer payment system. They are clueless about it but the talking heads have them completely apoplectic over it.

Fortunately, as society here changes - more immigrants, more urban, more young people staying - the hate-on for Quebec is diminishing. I know I only speak for myself, but I love my Quebec friends and brothers. For what it's worth I think Western alienation/separatism is a non starter, particularly without BC, which would leave the AB/SK landlocked and in an even worse position than before.

[jigglysquishy]

I agree most of the alienation is geared towards Quebec. Add Toronto and Ottawa and that's like 99% of the people that get blamed.

Most Reformers don't travel to anywhere east of Winnipeg except Montreal or Toronto.

I've seen a rise in pro Trump/pro USA comments, though that just ends up diving the group.

Oil is still the single largest identifier with western alienation. Hating Trudeau, Toronto, and Quebec is a very common viewpoint in the oil patch.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by electricmodes

It is exactly this. I grew up in Saskatchewan, have lived in Alberta, British Columbia and Ontario and am now back in Saskatchewan. My entire life growing up everyone moaned about "the French". It is a deeply rooted, generational hatred for Quebec. These people use the old transfer payments argument as the public face of their hatred, but anyone with half a brain knows what's really going on. I mean really, the average Joe in the West knows nothing about the simple aspects of federal fiscal policy, never mind the convoluted transfer payment system. They are clueless about it but the talking heads have them completely apoplectic over it.

Fortunately, as society here changes - more immigrants, more urban, more young people staying - the hate-on for Quebec is diminishing. I know I only speak for myself, but I love my Quebec friends and brothers. For what it's worth I think Western alienation/separatism is a non starter, particularly without BC, which would leave the AB/SK landlocked and in an even worse position than before.

I would add though that it's not everyone, and probably not even a majority. Even in Alberta.

But it's a big enough chunk of the population that it's noticeable when you engage with Westerners, especially those in AB-SK.

I'd also add that I am not sure immigration will change much on this front. If anything that seems to be opening new areas for anti-Quebec sentiment, such as bashing on the province for not embracing the ROC-style "diversity" dogma with sufficient enthusiasm.

[flar]

Originally Posted by jigglysquishy

Hating Trudeau, Toronto, and Quebec is a very common viewpoint in the oil patch.

Also common in rural SW Ontario

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by flar

Also common in rural SW Ontario

I was at some festival in Niagara last weekend and one of the booths was a vendor from Toronto.. my wife was perusing the goods and I heard another customer make some rude remark about Toronto right to the vendors face. She laughed it off.. but man, was it rude. And lots of people from rural Ontario see no problem with it. They think everyone, including the people who live there, must *hate* it.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I was at some festival in Niagara last weekend and one of the booths was a vendor from Toronto.. my wife was perusing the goods and I heard another customer make some rude remark about Toronto right to the vendors face. She laughed it off.. but man, was it rude. And lots of people from rural Ontario see no problem with it. They think everyone, including the people who live there, must *hate* it.

I mean, the same sort of thing happens here on SSP. It's pretty common once you leave the city to hear people talking all types of shit about it. I had this happens a few months ago in Belleville when someone said that 'those fucking parasites' should stay in Toronto during COVID. It would make them more upset to know that their little town doesn't even cross Toronto's mind at all.

[niwell]

It was fun doing consultations all over Northern Ontario with a team based in Toronto - thankfully with local office support. Most people ended up being pretty nice in the end (after their rant), but the misconceptions about how good we have it in Toronto were quite funny. Apparently roads are falling apart all over the North but the government makes sure all Torontonians pay no taxes but can take the subway wherever they want!

Then again, people from NW Ontario said we couldn't trust anything people from the NE said, because Sudbury is just "the Toronto of the North".

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by niwell

Then again, people from NW Ontario said we couldn't trust anything people from the NE said, because Sudbury is just "the Toronto of the North".

I've long said that N Ontario is just the Maritimes in a different skin so i'm glad this is here to cement that belief for me.

[thewave46]

You've basically described the human condition, yes.

London - rest of UK
Auckland - rest of NZ
Copenhagen - rest of Denmark
...
...

I actually kind of like Toronto. Now, I do quite clearly see the downsides of living there and don't think it's worth those costs, but I understand the personal value judgment there.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by niwell

It was fun doing consultations all over Northern Ontario with a team based in Toronto - thankfully with local office support. Most people ended up being pretty nice in the end (after their rant), but the misconceptions about how good we have it in Toronto were quite funny. Apparently roads are falling apart all over the North but the government makes sure all Torontonians pay no taxes but can take the subway wherever they want!

Then again, people from NW Ontario said we couldn't trust anything people from the NE said, because Sudbury is just "the Toronto of the North".

Heh. I always love 'The North will be prosperous once we're free!' ranters.

Um, no. We'll be poorer and have no one else to project our failings onto.

'But resources!' they cry. Uh, yeah, low-value resources whose value could tank at any moment, many of which are non-renewable. Every ton of ore shipped out is gone forever.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I was at some festival in Niagara last weekend and one of the booths was a vendor from Toronto.. my wife was perusing the goods and I heard another customer make some rude remark about Toronto right to the vendors face. She laughed it off.. but man, was it rude. And lots of people from rural Ontario see no problem with it. They think everyone, including the people who live there, must *hate* it.

I understand the sentiments to a degree and as TheWave said, it exists all over the world to the point where it can be said to be part of human nature.

That said, it's always shocking to me that people would go to the point of verbalizing it to a stranger.

That's just so stupid.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I mean, the same sort of thing happens here on SSP. It's pretty common once you leave the city to hear people talking all types of shit about it. I had this happens a few months ago in Belleville when someone said that 'those fucking parasites' should stay in Toronto during COVID. It would make them more upset to know that their little town doesn't even cross Toronto's mind at all.

Montréalais trashing the pastoral Gaspésie, and then getting trashed themselves in last year's Bye Bye 2020:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=429381954965344

[jigglysquishy]

Re: western alienation

A major factor that killed western alienation politically was urban Alberta/Saskatchewan/Manitoba. In the 1997 election, the Liberals or NDP won 8 seats in Alberta/Saskatchewan. Reform won only 3 of 14 in Manitoba. Hell, the PCs still won Brandon. So the prairies returned 19 non-Reformers.

If Reform swept the 3 prairie provinces (including the PC seat) the results would have been
Liberals: 146 seats
Reform: 79 seats
Bloc: 50
NDP: 12
PCs: 19

Still a Liberal minority, but no longer the 3 successive Liberal majorities.

Similar answer in 2000. 17 non-Alliance seats sent by the prairie provinces. Still would have been a Liberal Majority, but at least closer.

Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatoon, Regina, and Winnipeg largely rejected Reform/western alienation politics.

The movement was and still is largely a rural phenomenon.

[Tg11]

Either way an election no one really wanted and the results still stay the same at the end of the day. Taxpayers dollars wasted and for what? Plus with proof of vaccinations, the division of the country has already started.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by jigglysquishy

Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatoon, Regina, and Winnipeg largely rejected Reform/western alienation politics.

The movement was and still is largely a rural phenomenon.

A fair assessment, certainly in relation to Manitoba. There is a market for Reform/Alliance/PPC hysterics in Winnipeg, but it is limited. Drive half an hour south though, and things change in a big way.

[drew]

Originally Posted by esquire

A fair assessment, certainly in relation to Manitoba. There is a market for Reform/Alliance/PPC hysterics in Winnipeg, but it is limited. Drive half an hour south though, and things change in a big way.

Or west...

The PPC got ~20% of the vote in Portage-Lisgar

[esquire]

Originally Posted by drew

Or west...

The PPC got ~20% of the vote in Portage-Lisgar

Portage-Lisgar basically is south... I bet you anything it's the people in Morden-Winkler/RM of Stanley who put up the numbers for the PPC candidate in that riding. If they had their own riding and didn't have to share it with the more sane folks around Portage it might have been the only one in Canada to elect a PPC MP.