MLB Team in Vancouver - Where would you put them?

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

Ballparks are not permitted to face west, due to the sunsets blinding the batters for over an hour each and every evening.

To be precise, I did say northwest, i.e., something similar to Rogers Centre's orientation. But even if Vancouver's park had to face further north (due to its slightly more northerly latitude), an open left field would still orient perfectly towards the dowtown core, preserving the essence of the picturesque scene I mentioned.

[phesto]

Would love to see something similar to AT&T park in SF, with minimal outfield bleachers to preserve the view, and probably something around the same size of capacity (40k). Though obviously we would need some form of roof system here...

[cornholio]

Why isnt BC place a viable option? Its designed for baseball with seats being able to be removed easily. The roof is now higher and opens after the renovation.

The only problem I see is the level of the jumbotron and the color of the roof. I dont see why it should be so hard to rectify those problems if there is ever a need, certainly easier then building a new stadium in the downtown for a new and untested product. At the very least they can try getting AAA baseball in there no?

Having said that im certainly not a fan of baseball, have never gone to a game, and wouldn't be surprised if I never went to a game even if there was a MLB franchise next to my house.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Why isnt BC place a viable option? Its designed for baseball with seats being able to be removed easily. The roof is now higher and opens after the renovation.

The only problem I see is the level of the jumbotron and the color of the roof. I dont see why it should be so hard to rectify those problems if there is ever a need, certainly easier then building a new stadium in the downtown for a new and untested product. At the very least they can try getting AAA baseball in there no?

Having said that im certainly not a fan of baseball, have never gone to a game, and wouldn't be surprised if I never went to a game even if there was a MLB franchise next to my house.

Because baseball stadia takes a completely different function compared to football stadiums. Part of the ballpark experience is enjoying the outdoors, being in the sunshine, having a fantastic view, and is unique compared to just about every other ballpark experience in the major leagues.

BC Place's counterpart is the Metrodome in Minny, and the Twins finally got out of that dump. I know BC place has a great renovation, but it still would be a HORRIBLE ballpark experience based on no outfield view, thousands of seats in the outfield that will always be unoccupied.

BC Place would be used on a temporary basis if a team were to come - but a new baseball-only stadium plan would need to be built.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

Because baseball stadia takes a completely different function compared to football stadiums. Part of the ballpark experience is enjoying the outdoors, being in the sunshine, having a fantastic view, and is unique compared to just about every other ballpark experience in the major leagues.

BC Place's counterpart is the Metrodome in Minny, and the Twins finally got out of that dump. I know BC place has a great renovation, but it still would be a HORRIBLE ballpark experience based on no outfield view, thousands of seats in the outfield that will always be unoccupied.

BC Place would be used on a temporary basis if a team were to come - but a new baseball-only stadium plan would need to be built.

Fine install the worlds largest(?) retractable projection screen in the outfield, you can have a different view every game. The technology has come along way, might sound like a pipe dream but wouldn't surprise me one bit if it was feasible and economical. We have a beautiful retrofitted stadium downtown that can accommodate a baseball field easily, before we try to build a new stadium(something that might be nearly impossible) we should try thinking outside of the box and trying to make BC place a viable option.

[crazyjoeda]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

Because baseball stadia takes a completely different function compared to football stadiums. Part of the ballpark experience is enjoying the outdoors, being in the sunshine, having a fantastic view, and is unique compared to just about every other ballpark experience in the major leagues.

BC Place's counterpart is the Metrodome in Minny, and the Twins finally got out of that dump. I know BC place has a great renovation, but it still would be a HORRIBLE ballpark experience based on no outfield view, thousands of seats in the outfield that will always be unoccupied.

BC Place would be used on a temporary basis if a team were to come - but a new baseball-only stadium plan would need to be built.

If the ball park doesn't have sunshine and fantastic views what would draw fans?

I rarely ever see baseball games on TV's in Vancouver bars, and most people I know are so disinterested in baseball they wouldn't attend a game for free. Obviously I don't speak for everyone but I wouldn't go to a MLB game, and I can't imagine Vancouver ever supporting let alone getting a MLB team.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by crazyjoeda

...most people I know are so disinterested in baseball they wouldn't attend a game for free. Obviously I don't speak for everyone but I wouldn't go to a MLB game, and I can't imagine Vancouver ever supporting let alone getting a MLB team.

It's obvious why you cannot imagine it. You have extrapolated from your own parochial circle and projected your preferences onto to the rest of the population, notwithstanding your claim to not speak for everyone. As a result, you have managed to remain oblivious to an aspect of Vancouver that has been explained here many times: that Vancouver has an illustrious and rich baseball tradition; that professional baseball has flourished in Vancouver for nearly one hundred years and continues to do so; that the Lower Mainland is the primary source of Canadian talent in MLB precisely because it has the most developed and competitive youth baseball scene in the country; and that Metro Vancouver's population is superior to the metro population of many cities that currently support MLB.

A more informed, less insular analysis reveals that Vancouver meets the basic cultural criteria for an MLB city.

[mrjauk]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

It's obvious why you cannot imagine it. You have extrapolated from your own parochial circle and projected your preferences onto to the rest of the population, notwithstanding your claim to not speak for everyone. As a result, you have managed to remain oblivious to an aspect of Vancouver that has been explained here many times: that Vancouver has an illustrious and rich baseball tradition; that professional baseball has flourished in Vancouver for nearly one hundred years and continues to do so; that the Lower Mainland is the primary source of Canadian talent in MLB precisely because it has the most developed and competitive youth baseball scene in the country; and that Metro Vancouver's population is superior to the metro population of many cities that currently support MLB.

A more informed, less insular analysis reveals that Vancouver meets the basic cultural criteria for an MLB city.

Like you, Prometheus, (and unlike some of the posters here), I am a huge, and informed baseball fan. I was on a Little League team that was but a wild pitch (in extra innings no less!!) away from representing Canada in Williamsport. I can to this day rattle off at least 7 of the starters on the 1981 pennant-winning Montreal Expos and remember exactly where I was--my brother's wedding reception--when Joe Carter ended things in 1993 against Mitch "the Animal" Williams.

That being said, I'd have to side with those arguing against you this time. I understand that each of us tends to extrapolate from our own circumstances, but the question then becomes whose--persons like you and I or those such as crazyjoeda--perspective is more representative of the general public in Vancouver. With only anecdotal evidence to support my claim, I believe that the market simply does not exist here for an MLB team.

As for those arguing to put baseball in BC Place, I just have to shake my head. Your opinions are simply uninformed. There is a reason the building of
Camden Yards proved to be a watershed moment for MLB stadiums. The Skydome in Toronto symbolizes the swan song of a different era where multi-purpose stadiums were the rage. You wouldn't put the VSO in the Agrodome, would you?

If we ever were to get an MBL team I would support the building of an inconic ballpark where the 'Caps stadium was to have been built. (By the way, I'm very well connected into the soccer scene here in Vancouver and know that the 'Caps have every intention of being in BC Place for the long run.)

[phesto]

MLB would almost certainly require a purpose-built stadium if they ever granted expansion or relocation to Vancouver.

BC Place (with jumbotron issue resolved) might work as an interim location while a stadium is being built, but there would have to be some form of financing and approvals in place for a new stadium and location.

Even the Pacific Coast League (AAA) will require firm plans for an expanded Nat, or a new stadium before they come back to Vancouver.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Vancity

I can see the 'Caps stadium eventually being built. But as for Triple A - a brand new stadium? Unless it's coming out of the current ownership of the Canadians, I can't see a baseball specific stadium being built. I'd like to see Triple A ball back in Vancouver, I just don't know if it's going to be any time soon.

If someone is willing to build a 70 million dollar soccer specific stadium out of their own pocket, than there would most definitely be someone out there who would build a top notch AAA park. I'm a little amazed it hasn't happened already because you can't lose. The players and coaches payroll is paid by the parent club so you, as the owner, collect all the gate receipts, concession, and team merchandise sales without having to pay players payroll. In all likelihood, a triple A team would be more profitable than the Lions and Whitecaps combined.

That being said, I'd have to side with those arguing against you this time. I understand that each of us tends to extrapolate from our own circumstances, but the question then becomes whose--persons like you and I or those such as crazyjoeda--perspective is more representative of the general public in Vancouver. With only anecdotal evidence to support my claim, I believe that the market simply does not exist here for an MLB team.

It sounds like some people think baseball is as foreign to Vancouver as hockey is to Phoenix or Miami. That is simply not the case. BC produces Canada's best baseball players by far. This means we have a great developmental baseball programs in this province and we have a lot of kids and teenagers playing baseball, so there's no doubt that we have strong baseball roots in BC. I think it would be fair to extrapolate from that fact that Vancouver has a strong fan base.

[dennis1]

For those saying Vancouver cannot support a team?

Really? 2.6 million in the lower mainland. That is not small. Plus, would vancouver be receptive to the NBA after the last debocle? I hope so.

Vancouver needs to be abitious. MLB and NBA will bring more money and advertising to the region and expose the city to large swath of the states of which some that might decide to visit?

And two teams are currently in trouble. Tampa Bay and Oakland. Maybe the A's owner considers Van City if the current situation in San Jose does not work out. Or sell to some Vancouver Billionaire like Pattinson or Brandt Louie or Galagardi's dad.

Plus in the MLB system the revenue sharing is huge. Vancouver would get a nice check every year form Boston, NY, SF, Chicago, LA, Washington, et al. Your telling with that money you can't support a team? Please.

Think about it. Think Big.

[mattykicks]

As someone who has worked with various sports teams at different levels, this topic is very intriguing.

Vancouver does have a rich baseball history, especially regarding the Canadians. But could the third largest market in Canada support professional baseball??

For any city, there are basically four keys to having a successful sports team: Strong ownership, a lucrative venue, local corporate sponsorship, solid fan support.

Strong ownership
Purchasing and owning an MLB team would cost hundreds of millions of dollars. Jim Pattison would be the only local candidate who would have enough capital to invest in a team. He would bring experience too having owned the Vancouver Blazers during their brief existence in the WHA. Other potenial ownership groups could come from major local businesses like Best Buy or Telus. However, even these corporate giants would struggle to hold solid balance sheets for a pro baseball team.

The key is having an owner who is prepared for millions of dollars in write downs, and little profit. Most baseball teams themselves lose money. It's the residual benefits owners care about (taking clients out to games in hopes of scoring that next big real estate deal.... Etc). The owner would not necessarily need to be from Vancouver, but he/she would certainly have to have a large business footprint in the lower mainland. And outside of the aformentiond possibilities, there are not many other choices.

On a scale of 1 to 10, the likelyhood of finding a good owner is 5.5.

Lucrative venue
Let's get it out of our system.... B.C place is not a long term solution. Unless it could be renovated (again) to allow for a greater outdoor view, and many more luxury suits, the house that tax dollars built will never support a major league baseball team.

A new stadium would be a must. And yes, it would need a retractable roof similiar to Safeco in Seattle. There are only so many rain delays teams can handle. Waterfront park could work if they can squeeze in atleast 43,000 seats. And funding would have to come from the private sector, as governments in both Victoria and Ottawa are no long offering cash for stadiums. Location of a new stadium is also key. Richmond, Vancouver and North Van are all good options. But where do you get the land, and for how much? If you include stadium construction, the cost could easily reach a billion dollars. A figure not many in Canada are willing to pay for a home to house a major league team.

On a scale of 1 to 10, the likelihood of a new baseball stadium is a 4.

Local corporate sponsorship
Vancouver is home to some of the most wealthiest companies in North America (Telus and Best buy just to name a few). But most of these businesses are heavily invested in the Lions and Canucks. Spreading the sponsorship dollars to a baseball team would stretch bottom-lines for most of these companies. The key would be getting sportsnet or TSN on board as sponsor, although that would certainly drive down television rights packages. There are a lot of big businesses in Vancouver, but not quite enough.

On a scale of 1 to 10, the likelyhood of good local corporate sponsorship is a 6.5

Solid fan support
Ther is no doubt Vancouver has a rich baseball history fans are proud of. But will these fans pay money to see a team 81 nights a year? It's important to note that average income levels in the lower mainland are among the highest in North America. But baseball season ticket packages are also among the most expensive.

It would be a good option for those who can't afford pricey lions or Canucks tickets. And the population is definitely big enough. But it's asking a lot for anyone outside New West or Richmond to take the two hour drive to Vancouver almost every summer night. The season ticket base is likely to come from downtown, Richmond or Burnaby. And it's hard to say how many baseball fans reside in those areas.

On a scale of 1 to 10, the likelyhood of having good fan support is a 7.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by crazyjoeda

If the ball park doesn't have sunshine and fantastic views what would draw fans?

I rarely ever see baseball games on TV's in Vancouver bars, and most people I know are so disinterested in baseball they wouldn't attend a game for free. Obviously I don't speak for everyone but I wouldn't go to a MLB game, and I can't imagine Vancouver ever supporting let alone getting a MLB team.

I have quite the opposite experience. I know and have known many who travel to Seattle often simply to watch a baseball game.

I myself went with my wife and her friends to a game this September, and personally the price was fantastic and it was a great time! I actually enjoyed going to the baseball game more than a hockey game (hockey fans tend to be more annoying imo, i hate the smell of the artificial ice, its cold and indoors, extremely overpriced, etc...).

I would definitely love to go to an MLB game in Vancouver. Would be a great family activity.

[dennis1]

Corporate sponsership would jump from the Lions.

[phesto]

As a point of reference, Seattle, with a much larger population and over 30 years history in the big leagues, has seen a precipitous decline in both attendance and TV numbers since they moved to Safeco Field in 2000.

They are now well into the bottom third in the league in attendance, with 23,000 average last season (49% full). Obviously some of the blame comes from the poor performance of the team, but it is a longer trend that started while they were still competitive, and even Mariners management have conceded that it is increasingly tough to draw fans in April and May. Last year they were drawing as few as 10,000 to early season games.

Not trying to draw a link between Seattle and what could potentially happen in Vancouver, but it is important to acknowledge the challenge of selling upwards of 2,000,000 tickets per season in any city, regardless of population or baseball demand.

Compare selling 2,000,000 tickets and an 81 game schedule to our current sports teams (from most recent season, home games not including pre/season or playoffs):

Canucks - 41 games, 773,000
Lions - 9 games, 270,000
Whitecaps - 17 games, 363,000
Canadians - 24 games, 146,000
Giants - 35 games, 246,000

Even if you add playoff games to the above, you'd be proposing to double the amount of sports ticket sales in Vancouver; no easy feat...

[Vancity]

While I'd love a MLB team here in Van., I really can't see it happening without the city getting the NBA back. Losing the NBA hurt the image of this city (yes, even with the 2010 Winter Olympics here) as a city that is able to hold onto it's major sports franchises (i.e. MLB, NBA, etc). We're a hockey city - and Canucks town - first and foremost. All the cities that were mentioned that Vancouver is in size with (population wise), or will overtake (such as Baltimore, etc) - we do have to remember that those are american cities. They love baseball. Baseball to Americans, is like Hockey to Canadians. It's their national pastime, and people love it, much like Canadians just simply love hockey. Baseball (at least to my knowledge) is not a Vancouver pastime, although the sport/game has been around in minor league levels for a long, long time.

If baseball needs Vancouver, then I'm surprised that nobody has stepped up to the plate, and has actually said that it's worth the time, money and investment in building a world class ball park, and moving (or starting from scratch) a franchise here.

Like one poster said. The NBA is more realistic, but even that's going to be a while until it comes to fruition (and I believe the NBA will be back...when, who knows - probably once Stern retires).

one league at a time. the NHL has been here for roughly 40 years. We JUST got a MLS franchise, and the CFL has been here forever (not forever, kidding, but a long time). Out of those three franchises, the CFL has won multiple Grey Cups (good on them), but the Canucks haven't - yet. Once the fans are even more entrenched with the 'Nucks, and also the 'Caps, I think you'll see someone make a move for the NBA (whether that be Aquilini, or him and several other billionares, don't know) and bring a franchise back to Van.

MLB may happen down the road as well, and maybe even under Aquilini's ownership (since he is the most logical person) - but it wouldn't be for a long, long, long time.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by phesto

As a point of reference, Seattle, with a much larger population and over 30 years history in the big leagues, has seen a precipitous decline in both attendance and TV numbers since they moved to Safeco Field in 2000.

I realize this subject has ran its course for now but I have to respond to this because it is completely false. For many years in the Kingdome, the Mariners ranked last or second to last in American League attendance. In their 12th year at Safeco Field the Mariners ranked 8 of 12 in the AL in attendance with 23 411/game. In their 12th year at the Kingdome they averaged 12 000/game and dead last in attendance. Even in their 2nd year at the brand new Kingdome they averaged only 10 800. A big part of the baseball product is the stadium and Safeco has definitely improved the product for a perennial loser.

Another point of reference is Milwaukee, which has MLB and NBA, as well as minor league teams, has averaged around 36 000 fans/game in the last 5 years. Milwaukee's CSA population is 1.75 million, nearly a million less than the Lower Mainland.

One other point. MLB would fill the gap nicely between hockey seasons, whereas the NBA would compete head to head with the Canucks. I think this is why the NBA and MLB work in such a small market like Milwaukee. The sports entertainment dollar is spread evenly throughout the year, making it easier to attract fans to both franchises.

[dennis1]

Originally Posted by Vancity

While I'd love a MLB team here in Van., I really can't see it happening without the city getting the NBA back. Losing the NBA hurt the image of this city (yes, even with the 2010 Winter Olympics here) as a city that is able to hold onto it's major sports franchises (i.e. MLB, NBA, etc). We're a hockey city - and Canucks town - first and foremost. All the cities that were mentioned that Vancouver is in size with (population wise), or will overtake (such as Baltimore, etc) - we do have to remember that those are american cities. They love baseball. Baseball to Americans, is like Hockey to Canadians. It's their national pastime, and people love it, much like Canadians just simply love hockey. Baseball (at least to my knowledge) is not a Vancouver pastime, although the sport/game has been around in minor league levels for a long, long time.

If baseball needs Vancouver, then I'm surprised that nobody has stepped up to the plate, and has actually said that it's worth the time, money and investment in building a world class ball park, and moving (or starting from scratch) a franchise here.

Like one poster said. The NBA is more realistic, but even that's going to be a while until it comes to fruition (and I believe the NBA will be back...when, who knows - probably once Stern retires).

one league at a time. the NHL has been here for roughly 40 years. We JUST got a MLS franchise, and the CFL has been here forever (not forever, kidding, but a long time). Out of those three franchises, the CFL has won multiple Grey Cups (good on them), but the Canucks haven't - yet. Once the fans are even more entrenched with the 'Nucks, and also the 'Caps, I think you'll see someone make a move for the NBA (whether that be Aquilini, or him and several other billionares, don't know) and bring a franchise back to Van.

MLB may happen down the road as well, and maybe even under Aquilini's ownership (since he is the most logical person) - but it wouldn't be for a long, long, long time.

Well no one has mentioned it to selig so how they act on it? Plus I don't think it is dependent on the Canucks winning. In fact, the Canucks will be forced to compete if those other franchises come here and if they keep not winning they will stop being number one. All towns want winning franchises despite what anybody says.

[dennis1]

Originally Posted by logan5

I realize this subject has ran its course for now but I have to respond to this because it is completely false. For many years in the Kingdome, the Mariners ranked last or second to last in American League attendance. In their 12th year at Safeco Field the Mariners ranked 8 of 12 in the AL in attendance with 23 411/game. In their 12th year at the Kingdome they averaged 12 000/game and dead last in attendance. Even in their 2nd year at the brand new Kingdome they averaged only 10 800. A big part of the baseball product is the stadium and Safeco has definitely improved the product for a perennial loser.

Another point of reference is Milwaukee, which has MLB and NBA, as well as minor league teams, has averaged around 36 000 fans/game in the last 5 years. Milwaukee's CSA population is 1.75 million, nearly a million less than the Lower Mainland.

One other point. MLB would fill the gap nicely between hockey seasons, whereas the NBA would compete head to head with the Canucks. I think this is why the NBA and MLB work in such a small market like Milwaukee. The sports entertainment dollar is spread evenly throughout the year, making it easier to attract fans to both franchises.

The NBA and NHL will have different fans.

[butteredbiscuit]

Originally Posted by logan5

If things are done right, I think Vancouver would thrive as a MLB city. Here's my list of reasons why it would work.

1. The baseball park - Historic Gastown would be a perfect match for baseball, which are both deep in history. With the water and the mountains as a backdrop, the park itself would be the most picturesque park in baseball. That in itself would draw fans out as well as the cool vibe of Gastown. Just going to the game itself would be a cool experience. If the Blue Jays weren't playing in the sterile environment they are in, attendance figures would be much higher. Baseball is much more of a social event than other sports, so the Gastown location and the stadium itself would cater to that.

2. Local talent - BC has the ability to produce MVP quality baseball players and could easily have a team roster with multiple local players. This would make a huge difference in drawing interest from fans. Something the Grizzlies could not do.

3. International talent - South Korea and Japan supply high caliber players to MLB and would be sure to attract some interest from our large Asian population. Baseball is fairly new in China, but is growing at a rapid rate, just like everything in China. It won't be long before China has players in MLB. If MLB wants to tap a mega market like China, Vancouver is the best place to do it.

4. Population - There would be a sizable population on the doorstep of Gastown Park. DT Vancouver has 90 000 people who live in the DT peninsula, making it the most densely populated 2 square miles outside of New York. As well as the dense surrounding neighborhoods - Kits, Mt. Pleasant, Commercial Drive, etc. A lot will come just for the social aspect, scenery and atmosphere.
Other U.S. cities don't even come close to matching that kind of population base so close to the stadium.

5. Stadium financing - A 20 000 seat stadium could be built to accommodate a triple A team, and then have it expandable to major league standards when the time is right, making building and financing the stadium much easier.

6. Solid ownership - Not sure who would be interested in bringing MLB to Vancouver, maybe Aquilini? Once we've established ourselves as the best franchise in Minor League Baseball, somebody would step up.

Now onto naming the team...

I was going through this thread and thought this would be very interesting thread now since this was 9 years ago. MLB Commissioner Rob Manford said they would consider bringing in a few more teams in expansion. Now it looks like Tampa Bay Rays are going to be sharing half their season in Montreal. If Montreal comes with big attendance, it could be permanent. Portland is in the running for 4 other spots. Nashville, Charlotte, North Carolina, San Antonio and even Vancouver are mentioned. Do you think things have changed since 2011?

When I look at things when it comes to the stadium places, I am not sure if a baseball stadium can fit at the waterfront property by the Helipad. But I wonder if a NFL stadium like the Seahawks stadium could fit there. Someone could enlight me on this. Now I think it is not possible to put it at Jericho Park but how about these other places. 1) By the Train station in downtown or crossing Cambie Bridge going south. I like the look of the Miami Marlins Park here. I mean the outside of the building. The stadium would need to be max 40,000. You will need it for at least the Blue Jays when they come to town. Seattle cant even sell out their stadium unless the Dodgers and the Blue Jays come to town. But if we go to their stadium, we can sell it out! Especially if we had a good team.

If I was the owner, I would probably see if I could call the MLB team the Vancouver Canadians or Vancouver Mounties. What name would you call them?

Do you think that if a billionaire wanted to bring NFL and MLB to Vancouver, would Vancouver support both teams and leave the NBA ownership to the Canucks owner?