Your city's Jewish community

[Acajack]

I remember numerous articles in the 1990s about Montreal's Jewish organizations having to adjust their linguistic practices to accommodate French (previously they had operated only in English, or sometimes English and Yiddish) in reaction to the growth of the Sephardim population.

There were also stories of linguistic conflict between the Ashkenazis (reluctant to see the organizations they founded become too "French") and the Sephardim (who found the organizations too "English").

In the end I believe what happened most of the time is the organizations became more bilingual, as the Ashkenazis probably concluded it wasn't in their interest to have the Sephardim splinter off even more from the larger community and create their own French-oriented organizations. The fact that among non-Orthodox Jews the francophone Sephardim side was actually where the growth was in Jewish Montreal, was probably not lost on the Ashkenazi leadership.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Docere

I disagree with that assessment. Jewish immigrants tend to settle in areas that already had an existing Jewish presence.

Is it fair to say it (sometimes or occasionally) happens the other way around then? Some (non-Jewish) immigrants from a country actually follow and settle near older Jewish communities of place of origin (e.g. non-Jewish) Moroccans settle near Moroccan Jewish communities, and non-Jewish Persians in LA arrived after in the same spots as Persian Jews? But not in reverse?

Or is there just no broad trend (apart from newer Jewish immigrants settlng in older Jewish communities) in co-location between emigrating gentiles of a country of origin vs. the Jewish diaspora that came from the same place of origin?

Originally Posted by Docere

The Moroccan Jewish immigration to Montreal also occurred mostly in the 1960s and 1970s, a generation earlier than most North African Muslims.

[Docere]

Although not a particularly large percentage of the overall metro area, Jews make up a rather large percentage of the English-speaking community of Montreal. Many if not most Montrealers who moved to Toronto in the 1970s and 1980s were Jewish. Not coincidentally it was in the 1970s that Toronto surpassed Montreal as both the largest city in Canada and the city with the largest Jewish population.

[Crawford]

The Persian Jewish community in the NY area (in Great Neck) replaced earlier Jewish migration. There is no Muslim community, Persian or otherwise, in proximity.

And I don't think the Beverly Hills Persian Jewish community has Persian Muslim neighbors. Maybe in other parts of SoCal? I don't think I've seen a "Tehranto" type Muslim Persian neighborhood in the U.S., like you see on Yonge. Persians, for the most part, can't immigrate here.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I remember numerous articles in the 1990s about Montreal's Jewish organizations having to adjust their linguistic practices to accommodate French (previously they had operated only in English, or sometimes English and Yiddish) in reaction to the growth of the Sephardim population.

There were also stories of linguistic conflict between the Ashkenazis (reluctant to see the organizations they founded become too "French") and the Sephardim (who found the organizations too "English").

In the end I believe what happened most of the time is the organizations became more bilingual, as the Ashkenazis probably concluded it wasn't in their interest to have the Sephardim splinter off even more from the larger community and create their own French-oriented organizations. The fact that among non-Orthodox Jews the francophone Sephardim side was actually where the growth was in Jewish Montreal, was probably not lost on the Ashkenazi leadership.

Is the Sephardim share still the major source of growth today? How much was driven by emigration (to Anglo-Canada) of Ashkenazis, which I assume stabilized now, vs. Sephardim vs new immigration from Francophone-leaning Jewish places (if it's still ongoing)?

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Is it fair to say it (sometimes or occasionally) happens the other way around then? Some (non-Jewish) immigrants from a country actually follow and settle near older Jewish communities of place of origin (e.g. non-Jewish) Moroccans settle near Moroccan Jewish communities, and non-Jewish Persians in LA arrived after in the same spots as Persian Jews? But not in reverse?

Or is there just no broad trend (apart from newer Jewish immigrants settlng in older Jewish communities) in co-location between emigrating gentiles of a country of origin vs. the Jewish diaspora that came from the same place of origin?

This has happened with FSU and Russian-speaking communities. There was some immigration of Soviet Jews in the 1970s, and they established some enclaves (non-Jews weren't able to emigrate).* And immediately after the collapse of the FSU, immigrants were still heavily Jewish. But soon after the Jewish population emptied out the immigrant flow became more non-Jewish.

* ETA these were existing Jewish communities like Brighton Beach in Brooklyn and the Bathurst-Sheppard area in Toronto, but they soon took on a Russian-Jewish character.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The Persian Jewish community in the NY area (in Great Neck) replaced earlier Jewish migration. There is no Muslim community, Persian or otherwise, in proximity.

And I don't think the Beverly Hills Persian Jewish community has Persian Muslim neighbors. Maybe in other parts of SoCal? I don't think I've seen a "Tehranto" type Muslim Persian neighborhood in the U.S., like you see on Yonge. Persians, for the most part, can't immigrate here.

Aren't many non-Jewish Persians in the US also irreligious or atheist though? Especially educated ones/those who arrived as students to the US in the 20th century etc.

[Docere]

Yes. Iranians in the US and Canada tend to be quite secular.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Is the Sephardim share still the major source of growth today? How much was driven by emigration (to Anglo-Canada) of Ashkenazis, which I assume stabilized now, vs. Sephardim vs new immigration from Francophone-leaning Jewish places (if it's still ongoing)?

The main source of growth by a wide margin in Jewish Montreal today is likely the birth rate of the Hasidim.

The other phenomenon going on are:

- Intermarriage with non-Jews and outmigration to other Canadian provinces or the U.S. of the (more or less) secular Ashkenazi population, which has traditionally been the largest component of Jewish Montreal.

- Arrival of Sephardim, but mostly from France these days. In Morocco itself, the community continues to decline rapidly, and from what I have read within about a decade there will be virtually no Jews left in that country. I believe there are less than 2000 left today. French Jews have been moving out of France (mostly to Israel and Montreal, and some to the U.S. as well) due to a flurry of anti-semitic incidents (some of them horrifying) in that country which has led to a generalized feeling of anxiety among French Jews. The community's media platforms have been filled with chatter about getting out of France for a couple of years now.

Once in Montreal, I believe Sephardim are way more likely to stay put than Ashkenazis have been over the past couple of decades. This is typical of the outmigration and retention patterns of immigrant groups in general - those oriented towards French stay put, those oriented towards English are much more likely to leave.

[Docere]

Although many Iranians have moved out to Orange County and the San Fernando Valley, those who live in Beverly Hills—where about a fifth of the population is Iranian—have come to embody the stereotype. Their American neighbors often see them as flashy and loud; other expatriate Iranians tend to regard them as caricatures—former royal ministers and other “Shahi” types who fled the revolution with bags of jewels, leaving their Tehran mansions and Caspian Sea villas in the care of servants. Their wives shop for designer clothes on Rodeo Drive; their children grow up to be, or to marry, doctors.

Of course, most L.A. Iranians were never ministers. Like Iranians anywhere, they are rich or poor, Muslim, Jewish, Baha’i, Christian, or Zoroastrian, secular or religious, conservative or leftist, highly educated or less so. But to some extent they are all élite. In Iran, they were not maids or shepherds but people who had enough sophistication and cash to get to America. Most are Shiite Muslims, but in West Los Angeles the Jewish Iranians are the most cohesive, connected through synagogues, marriages, and jobs. Few of L.A.’s mosques are Shiite, and, in any case, the last thing that most people fleeing the Islamic revolution wanted to see was a mosque. “If you’re Jewish, you have American Jews,” says Mehdi Bozorgmehr, a sociologist who has studied the community. “Being Muslim, Iranian, and secular is a potent negative baggage to carry. You’re secular, so where do you go?” The community was outraged last December, when men from some Muslim countries were ordered to register with the Immigration and Naturalization Service and several hundred L.A. Iranians, including many Jews, were detained on visa violations. Most were eventually released, but in a rare show of unity thousands of Iranians marched down Wilshire Boulevard in protest. The thought that they had anything to do with Osama bin Laden was, to them, an absurdity.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...on-the-pacific

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Docere

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...on-the-pacific

I'm guessing NYC (and Toronto)'s immigrant community from Iran don't have nearly the large socio-economic old country elite share as LA?

[Docere]

I don't think NY really has that many Iranians at all outside the Persian Jewish community of Long Island.

[Capsicum]

Though still (I'm guessing socio-economically advantaged relative to those who never got to leave Iran) upwardly mobile, Persian Canadians do seem more working class in Toronto (e.g. some ride the bus, live in apartments). Or at least when they arrive(d).

Vancouver's Persians actually seem a bit more like LA's, more well off when immigrating, maybe it's a west coast thing?

[Docere]

The suburb of West Vancouver is one of Canada's wealthiest communities and it has a large Iranian population.

[Acajack]

It's a good bet that the richest person in my medium-sized Quebec city is a Persian (Iranian) immigrant to Canada.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

I'm guessing NYC (and Toronto)'s immigrant community from Iran don't have nearly the large socio-economic old country elite share as LA?

The Great Neck Persian community is largely the same as in West LA (Jewish, secular and wealthy). It's just a much smaller community than in LA. There are few Persians in the U.S. outside of Coastal CA and a few enclaves in NY, DC and I think Houston?

Toronto's Persian community is (secular) Muslim, much larger, and arrived more recently. And I believe it leans working-middle class. I believe Ottawa has a decent-sized Persian community too? Or maybe all the major Canadian metros haves sizable Persian communities?

Probably not that many Persian Jews in Canada, because there were barely any to begin with, and they almost all left following the Revolution. Those in Canada probably arrived concurrent with the Beverly Hills/Great Neck migration.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Crawford

. I believe Ottawa has a decent-sized Persian community too? .

I'd estimate the community in Ottawa at somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000.

As I alluded to above, one of the most prominent businessmen in my own city of Gatineau in Persian (Iranian).

The community on this side of the Ottawa River probably numbers around 1,000 people or less.

I won't get into too many details due to the small size of the community, but my family has "friendly" relationships with a couple of its members.

They are very secular as you say, and for lack of a better term "lifestyles" fall almost seamlessly into line with those of other demographics here, according to age group. Religious or cultural restrictions seem very minimal.

[Docere]

Religion of Iranian Americans:

Muslim 28%
Jewish 8%
Christian 7%
Baha'i 5%
Agnostic 15%
Atheist 16%

https://paaia.org/wp-content/uploads...-Americans.pdf

I doubt anywhere near a majority of L.A. Iranians are Jewish, but it's a more cohesive, established community that's more visible in a few pockets like Beverly Hills.

[Docere]

English-speaking Montreal almost has a sort of mini-NY/Northeast Corridor demographic.

Speak English at home: 620,000 (2016 census)

Italian ancestry 120,000 19.4%
Jewish 60,000 9.7%

So about 30% of English-speaking Montrealers are Italian or Jewish. And more English-speaking Montrealers are of Italian than English ancestry.

[Docere]

Home language, Montreal Jews (2011)

English 60,190 66.3%
French 16,195 17.8%
Yiddish 6,905 7.6%
Russian 4,115 4.5%
Hebrew 2,345 2.6%
Spanish 1,110 1.2%

https://www.jewishdatabank.org/conte...l%20Report.pdf