[Halifax] West End Mall Future Growth Node 15 Buildings | 90m | Proposed

[DigitalNinja]

Looks like Cushman Wakefield wants to finally get rid of the West End Mall complex.

Probably won't be approved/started for a long time yet. But the future growth node proposal to allow amendments to the Centre Plan is now online.

Site Plan

I don't agree with a couple things. First one is the amount of park space. This isn't a suburban development. This is urban. There is currently 0 park space there. Any amount of park space is a net benefit. Planners need to calm down about that.

They also note that they don't like all the buildings are 90M - So what? We need more units. They note there is an option to amend it to allow higher heights. But this whole centreplan was supposed to put a stop to that and the planners they employ are already finding the height limits arbitrary. What a cluster...

I really like the idea of the underground bus terminal YES YES YES this should be a high priority and would be awesome in that spot. Provides easy access for people who live there and keeps everyone out of the weather while clearing up surface traffic from buses in the area.

[MonctonRad]

The proposed high
density mixed-use development consists of 15 towers with several connecting podium structures,
townhouse dwellings and commercial/retail space in 7 development blocks accessed by a combination
of newly proposed municipal ROW’s and internal laneways. Additional accesses are provided via a newly
proposed underground Bus Terminal that will connect the subject property with the existing Halifax
Shopping Centre to the north-east. At this time, this proposed transit station is still at the discussion
stages between the owners and applicable City staff.

The bus terminus is a great idea. Given this property borders the CNR mainline between downtown and Bedford, they should really think about leaving their options open for a (possible future) commuter rail station. It would be fantastic if they could integrate the underground bus station with a possible commuter rail station.

EDIT - I see "figure 4" in the document includes the possibility of a commuter rail station.

[someone123]

Interesting. Thanks for posting. 5,560 units is a lot. I tend to agree about park space and the notion of abstract procrustean planning rules like "thou shalt provide X square meters of park space per capita". The demand for park space can vary a lot depending on the population and the private amenities they have. And then the public amenities in the park can matter more than the amount of space. I think some of these park/parking requirements are more about the fears of existing residents who worry there will be more contention for these public resources where they live. But they are often quite different from the new populations that move in.

The transit proposals are interesting but I think there is an inconsistency here in that modest improvements are suggested while the amount of construction proposed is wildly above what used to happen previously in the city. This style of development is well within the range of what might be served by LRT in other cities. One nice thing about underground bus infrastructure is it can be repurposed in the future. I could see Halifax building some short bus tunnels in the coming years and that could coalesce into a grade-separated LRT system. If the city continues to grow as it is now it's hard to see how BRT is going to work well in the core in 10-20 years.

[Colin May]

The property is owned by the Ontario Pension Board. manager of the Ontario Public Sector Pension Plan. The plan is not as expensive or as generous as the platinum plated pension plan for HRM. Contribution rate is just 8.45%, in HRM the rate is 12.21%. And employees in Ontario do not receive a Long Service Award of up to 6 months basic pay.
https://www.opb.ca/current-members/for-opp-members

HRM - the highest benefits cost for Canadian municipalities.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Colin May

The property is owned by the Ontario Pension Board. manager of the Ontario Public Sector Pension Plan. The plan is not as expensive or as generous as the platinum plated pension plan or HRM. Contribution rate is just 8.45%, in HRM the rate is 12.21%. And employees in Ontario do not receive a Long Service Award of up to 6 months basic pay.
https://www.opb.ca/current-members/for-opp-members

HRM - the highest benefits cost for Canadian municipalities.

Part of the cost penalty we pay for is that I understand that the HRM plan is not harmonized with CPP like most other plans, so there is no corresponding reduction in monthly payments to members once they turn 65 and start to receive CPP. as a result many HRM retirees collect more in retirement than they did when employed.

[Hali87]

Major new redevelopment proposal for the Mumford Terminal / West End Mall lands:

Part of the West End Mall in Halifax could be redeveloped to include a mix of townhouses, up to 15 apartment towers and a new transit hub.

Commercial real estate company Cushman Wakefield has asked Halifax regional council to approve a master plan process for what's known as the Halifax Shopping Centre Annex. It's located between Mumford Road and the CN Rail line.

The proposal involves tearing down some of the existing commercial buildings, creating new public streets and building 5,500 apartment units for 12,500 people.

According to a new report, that's significantly more dense than the redevelopment plan for Shannon Park in Dartmouth — 86,700 people per square kilometre versus 20,000 per square kilometre.

Some of the proposed towers are up 25 storeys.

The Mumford transit terminal is located within the redevelopment area.

...

Municipal staff are looking for an upgraded and expanded transit hub close to the existing site. The developers have suggested an underground terminal, but that option has not yet been assessed by planners.

The report also suggests the proposal does not have enough green space and the redevelopment should include the construction of high quality parks.

Halifax regional council will consider the proposal on Tuesday.

If it agrees to start a master plan process, public consulation would be required.

Source

[Hali87]

I agree with the report that a new bridge across the rail cut (either vehicular or pedestrian) would be really useful. It's currently way more tedious to get from this area to Joseph Howe than it should be.

[Keith P.]

I don't quite understand what I'm looking at in that map.

[Hali87]

Based on the report, it looks like the A and B parcels are phase 1 and the rest are phase 2. The labeled squares are 90m towers and the rest are nebulous podiums which might be townhouses and/or retail. The B sites seem to be most of the West End Mall (minus the old Bay, which I guess will remain as an office building) and the E1 and Plaza areas are basically where Sobeys, the NSLC, and Walmart are now. The A sites would be the area with Moore's and Tim Horton's. A bunch of the streets are new or newly formalized.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Based on the report, it looks like the A and B parcels are phase 1 and the rest are phase 2. The labeled squares are 90m towers and the rest are nebulous podiums which might be townhouses and/or retail. The B sites seem to be most of the West End Mall (minus the old Bay, which I guess will remain as an office building) and the E1 and Plaza areas are basically where Sobeys, the NSLC, and Walmart are now. The A sites would be the area with Moore's and Tim Horton's. A bunch of the streets are new or newly formalized.

Are the dashed lines under Mumford Road the underground transit component?

I'm a bit surprised by the phasing and how the "A" sites require demolition of some new-ish buildings.

If the buses go underground and there's a direct pedestrian connection to either side, either HSC or the new development, that seems like a nice improvement. In theory there could be some development on the HSC side too.

Mumford is sort of the Halifax-side analog to the Bridge Terminal, though in the BRT plan there is the extra green line on the Halifax side that doesn't go through Mumford. It's a bit strange on the BRT plan map as Mumford is shown as a major terminal on 1 route but there's a separate HSC dot with 2 routes. There's some awkwardness in the street network and how the malls are located. Ideally there would be one clear hub in the middle of it all with simple transfers between BRT routes.

[Summerville]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Based on the report, it looks like the A and B parcels are phase 1 and the rest are phase 2. The labeled squares are 90m towers and the rest are nebulous podiums which might be townhouses and/or retail. The B sites seem to be most of the West End Mall (minus the old Bay, which I guess will remain as an office building) and the E1 and Plaza areas are basically where Sobeys, the NSLC, and Walmart are now. The A sites would be the area with Moore's and Tim Horton's. A bunch of the streets are new or newly formalized.

If I my understanding is correct the towers would include 8 storey podiums and 24 storey towers in some cases. Together with row houses in the mix. It’s pretty intense.

I believe that Sobeys or Crombie just completed a building in Montreal that included a Sobeys in a high rise building…..so maybe Sobeys may not be kicked out of the site.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Summerville

If I my understanding is correct the towers would include 8 storey podiums and 24 storey towers in some cases. Together with row houses in the mix. It’s pretty intense.

I believe that Sobeys or Crombie just completed a building in Montreal that included a Sobeys in a high rise building…..so maybe Sobeys may not be kicked out of the site.

With the number of residents it would be sensible and proper to include retail at the site.

The numbers concern me however, especially if (as I would presume) these are not high-end units. That kind of concentration of population could quickly make it deteriorate into something approaching a public housing project environment.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

With the number of residents it would be sensible and proper to include retail at the site.

The numbers concern me however, especially if (as I would presume) these are not high-end units. That kind of concentration of population could quickly make it deteriorate into something approaching a public housing project environment.

I could see this having a range of cheaper to higher-end units at the end of the day. I don't expect any of it to be ultra-cheap quality, but there could be some range of amenities (for example some buildings could have gyms, pools, etc, and pay a higher premium for better access to these) and a lot of people could choose not to pay for parking. There's likely a lot of demand for small, modern units with fast, reliable internet and few other amenities beyond the absolute basics. On the other hand it's likely that there will be some larger and higher-end units.

The report is pretty vague about potential retail space but in practice it wouldn't work to have 15,000+ people relying on the Atlantic Wholesalers as their primary grocery store, and it seems likely there would be a Sobeys (or whatever) somewhere in the new redevelopment. Sobeys effectively owns that land (as Crombie) and they'll probably want to maintain a presence, especially with the larger customer base.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I could see this having a range of cheaper to higher-end units at the end of the day. I don't expect any of it to be ultra-cheap quality, but there could be some range of amenities (for example some buildings could have gyms, pools, etc, and pay a higher premium for better access to these) and a lot of people could choose not to pay for parking. There's likely a lot of demand for small, modern units with fast, reliable internet and few other amenities beyond the absolute basics. On the other hand it's likely that there will be some larger and higher-end units.

I don't think the idea of building 90 m concrete towers fits in well with the theory that they'll be super cheap.

To me this seems like an alternate version of the kind of construction that happens around Clayton Park or Bedford for people who want a more convenient and less car-oriented location and don't mind living in a higher density environment. This kind of setup is common in cities around the world, while Halifax's car-oriented 12 storey slab apartments are kind of unusual.

It will have the good side-effect of creating another strong node in a potential higher order transit system. Halifax already has some areas with subway-level densities but there aren't enough of them; it's not viable to build a subway or LRT with 2 stops, and they don't really connect up enough "stuff" to be useful (residences, shops, workplaces, schools, hospitals, and so on).

[Corker]

There is a public open house this evening regarding this proposal.

https://www.shapeyourcityhalifax.ca/west-end-mall

[egb]

Originally Posted by Corker

There is a public open house this evening regarding this proposal.

https://www.shapeyourcityhalifax.ca/west-end-mall

I stopped by this tonight and they were closing up early. Staff had to shut it down because a large group of people showed up and were unruly. They’re going to try again in the future, worth coming out if you want to support it!

[Keith P.]

Unruly? As in "It's Too TALL" and "We're not Toronto" kind of unruly? Or is it another Peggy Cameron-ish "Friends of the West End Mall Parking Lots" bunch?

[egb]

This Twitter thread gives some flavour:

https://mobile.twitter.com/WilsonKM2...75967571177473

I guess someone came with a bullhorn?

[Keith P.]

Ah, thank you for the link.

So this was a another HRM Planning Dept "engagement" session for another of their grand schemes. And the esteemed Coun. Cleary was in attendance too, which is enough to set almost any reasonable person off.

I actually admire the spunk of an older lady who went to the trouble of bringing a bullhorn to the session. Using the tactics of the younger generation against newly-graduated planners must have been traumatic for them. She must have anticipated that her groups concerns would be swept under the rug by the planners as they are wont to do since they always know what is best, at least according to them.

Seriously though, this is interesting in that it may be the first real pushback against the amount of growth on the peninsula and HRM's grand visions for the same. Chickens coming home to roost, etc. I don't know what the solution is but better tighten your seatbelts. They're mad as hell and they're not going to take it any more.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Good god... it's not like there aren't any other tall buildings around, plus it's right at a major transit station. What could make more sense than to build this up? People need to shake their heads and try to think for a change...

Yup, enough of the public consultations. Just build it.