Pedestrian killed today on Main at James

[emge]

Originally Posted by Millstone

And I've done 55-60 km/h on Yonge St; what's your point?

Sure, 25 km/h as a posted limit is a stretch, and turning this thread immediately to the evils of one-way streets before there was substantive proof the accident actually occcured on King was premature.

However, I can say that living at Yonge/Steeles, Yonge/Sheppard, and Yonge/Eglinton and taking the subway downtown for work during my years in Toronto, I'm quite certain no one has done 55-60 km/h on Yonge Street during the work week in the daytime or early evening, or most Saturdays.

Coming back from downtown after 8.. maybe. Many deliveries, especially with large trucks, take place outside the normal business hours because of this.

With the subway, Yonge buses, and many other north-south routes in the city like Mt Pleasant that get you downtown far quicker there isn't any need for high-speed car traffic most of the day on Yonge

... and I would dare say not on Main or King Street in Hamilton either, especially with our other one-way routes. Going to 25 is silly as a posted limit.. being more around 35 even if 40 or 50 is posted because of other measures and possibly two-way.. I can see that, and now that we know where the accident occurred I think the discussion around it is appropriate.

[coalminecanary]

Even if the accident happened on James, this discussion would still apply. Main and Cannon (and to a SLIGHTLY lesser extent, King, Wilson, York, Queen, Wellington, Wentworth) are designed to reduce the necessity for vehicles to slow down thereby encouraging speeding - and by being one-way, they give the feeling of expressway driving, even though theoretically they are not expressways.

The problem is, it is easy as a driver to fall into the "highway mentality" - and even if you turn off of one of these streets on to a more sane street such as James, it takes time for people to adjust away from the highway mentality.

All of the streets downtown, including residential streets, suffer from drivers who race like they are merging onto a 400 series highway. Not all drivers are guilty of this, but the design of the major streets encourage this behaviour - and reward it with green lights - and that behaviour spills out to other streets.

I live on a street that intersects Main, but I am about 5 blocks away form main. Our block is very short - about 12 houses long - with a stop sign on each end. People race from one stop sign only to slam on their brakes at the other. I am convinced that this behaviour is partially due to the drivers using our street to get from one "highway mentality" street to another - and the mentality stays with them through the entire journey - i.e. if they do not race the entire way, they might get stuck at a light.

Millstone, what area of the city do you live in, just out of curiosity? I feel like much of the "one-ways are fine" supporter camp does not live near downtown. I battle with insane vehicular speeds every day, while on foot, while on a bike and while driving in my neighbourhood - and it's clear to me as a resident that it is simply a dangerous setup.

THe worst part is that even those drivers who are mindful of the problem can be lulled into this mentality. I have caught myself going too fast on main more than once, and I consciously try to avoid doing so. THe effect is even worse for those who don't give a second thought to it.

It needs to change.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by coalminecanary

People race from one stop sign only to slam on their brakes at the other. I am convinced that this behaviour is partially due to the drivers using our street to get from one "highway mentality" street to another - and the mentality stays with them through the entire journey - i.e. if they do not race the entire way, they might get stuck at a light.

this is SO true....my wife and were talking about this the other day. These idiots at EVERY light and EVERY stopsign who gun it like the start of an Indy race, only to stop at the next stop-sign....many times, halfway out into the crosswalk.
It's almost humourous to watch people from the burbs do this downtown and get yelled at by parents and stares from people trying to cross the road as they speed like idiots down a 12-house block from one stop sign to the next.
I drive easy, steady and safely and always seem to catch up to them. Lol.
Funny, but it actually is quite dangerous. I like the fact when I go to Toronto that I exit the Gardiner and I KNOW that I'm not on the highway anymore. The driving pattern changes instantly. That's what we need here. I'm tired of the deadbeats and squelchers always having their way - no business investment, pedestrian deaths, unsafe streets, nervous parents etc.... just because they are addicted to their cars and don't give a rip about anyone else but themselves.

[ryan_mcgreal]

Originally Posted by BrianE

Here is a great report from Safe Kids Canada on Pedestrian Safety.

A 2000 study conducted on Hamilton streets and published in the Canadian Journal of Public Health concluded:

One-way streets have higher rates of child pedestrian injuries than two-way streets in this community.

[Jon Dalton]

This discussion reminds me of General Motors' PR campaigns in the 1950's. They argued against the need to build safer cars by stating the real problems were with the drivers as well as road design, bad signage, bicycles on roads, etc. It's the same principle. We cannot continue to blame the individual for an ongoing societal problem.

[Millstone]

Originally Posted by coalminecanary

How insensitive can you be? We are not using someone's death to further some sort of underhanded agenda, unless you consider saving lives and making our streets livable for ALL CITIZENS EQUALLY (not just those who choose to blast through in vehicles) a political agenda.

We are talking about senseless loss of life, and no matter who the hell is "at fault" it doesn't change the fact that someone died. We need to design roads so that so that nobody's mistakes (drivers nor pedestrians) can cause this type of damage to a human body. We ned to fix the way cars and people interact in this city because the way it is set up now is not working. People are dying and there is absolutely no need!!!!!

We are crying out for sanity. Stop twisting our words to further YOUR agenda.

This is no "we vs. you" debate. You used "we" three times and "our" but I've only been talking to like one person and it's not you. Someone died and that is tragic, but I'm apparently the only one who can think without emotion clouding my judgement and that's fine.

Now what do you mean design a road so that there are no mistakes? Those are called freeways and we all know how this forum in general feels about those. I think the way people drive in this city is a problem, just like how pedestrians ignoring signals is a problem. I'd like to solve all of it but there's no silver bullet. I'd really like to try ramped up enforcement, because the city could make a huge profit if they knew where to look.

Also, it does matter who is at fault and I've yet to see a piece of copy saying whose it was yet.

To answer your other question, Rebecca & James. I've crossed King and Main lots without issues; it works great if you cross when you're supposed to. What now?

[LikeHamilton]

Quote from CHML

The Hamilton Police Collision Reconstruction Unit is handling the investigation and still trying to determine the "traffic light situation" at the time of the tragedy.

Sergaent Mike Webber confirms that the woman was in the crosswalk at the time that she was hit. He adds that the driver of the commercial vehicle which struck her is assisting with the investigation.

Also police have said that alcohol and speed where not a factor.

[markbarbera]

Now that we have a bit more information to work with, let's pause a moment from the rhetoric and examine the facts as they are now available. The pedestrian was in the intersection when the accident occurred. Right of way has not yet been determined. The body came to rest within the intersection where the accident occurred.

While I am not a traffic reconstruction expert, the fact that the body did not travel far from the impact would indicate that speed was not a factor in the accident. Judging from the description of the body there was obvious head trauma in this accident. Head trauma in pedestrian accidents often results in a fatality regardless of the speed of impact, particularly if the automobile involved is a cube van. If memory serves, just this week in Toronto a 2-year-old was killed by head injurieds sustained when hit by an auto backing out of a residential driveway.

Can we please wait at least for the results of the accident reconstruction analysis before we lay blame for the cause of the accident?

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

I like the fact when I go to Toronto that I exit the Gardiner and I KNOW that I'm not on the highway anymore. The driving pattern changes instantly. That's what we need here. I'm tired of the deadbeats and squelchers always having their way - no business investment, pedestrian deaths, unsafe streets, nervous parents etc.... just because they are addicted to their cars and don't give a rip about anyone else but themselves.

From personal experience I can say that driving habits in Toronto are no more different than on Hamilton streets. Hamilton does not have a monopoly on poorly designed streets, and two way streets can be more poorly designed than one-way streets. If you don't beleive me try driving along Jarvis Street in Toronto sometime, or Kingston Road, for that matter.

No one is arguing that the 403 exit onto Main is poorly designed. Having said that, this is not because Main is a one-way street, rather it is because Main is a poorly designed one-way street.

[Millstone]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

From personal experience I can say that driving habits in Toronto are no more different than on Hamilton streets. Hamilton does not have a monopoly on poorly designed streets, and two way streets can be more poorly designed than one-way streets. If you don't beleive me try driving along Jarvis Street in Toronto sometime, or Kingston Road, for that matter.

No one is arguing that the 403 exit onto Main is poorly designed. Having said that, this is not because Main is a one-way street, rather it is because Main is a poorly designed one-way street.

It's well-designed for maximum "go" power, but alas most people driving it seem to abuse that privilege.

[flar]

Hamilton's road system was probably considered a masterpiece when it was designed.

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

While I am not a traffic reconstruction expert, the fact that the body did not travel far from the impact would indicate that speed was not a factor in the accident. Judging from the description of the body there was obvious head trauma in this accident. Head trauma in pedestrian accidents often results in a fatality regardless of the speed of impact, particularly if the automobile involved is a cube van. If memory serves, just this week in Toronto a 2-year-old was killed by head injurieds sustained when hit by an auto backing out of a residential driveway.

It wasn't a cube van, it was a 24' Straight Truck. Also sometimes incorrectly referred to as a 5 Ton Truck. Incorrectly, because they can be rated at a higher GVW than 5 tons.

For comparison;
24' Straight Truck: http://www.texastruckcenter.com/deta...?stock_no=6159

Cube Van: http://www.hebdo.net/usedcarcanadase..._31736707.html

Sorry, but I think they type of truck is an important distinction.

[ryan_mcgreal]

Originally Posted by LikeHamilton

police have said that speed [was] not a factor.

This is dangerous nonsense. The laws of motion are more binding than those of the Ministry of Transportation.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by ryan_mcgreal

This is dangerous nonsense. The laws of motion are more binding than those of the Ministry of Transportation.

let the police do the investigating.

They know what they're doing.

That's why we only post on a message board.

[coalminecanary]

Originally Posted by Millstone

This is no "we vs. you" debate. You used "we" three times and "our" but I've only been talking to like one person and it's not you.

Sorry - I didn't mean to get in the middle of a personal conversation, but it is a public discussion...

Originally Posted by Millstone

Now what do you mean design a road so that there are no mistakes? Those are called freeways and we all know how this forum in general feels about those. I think the way people drive in this city is a problem, just like how pedestrians ignoring signals is a problem. I'd like to solve all of it but there's no silver bullet. I'd really like to try ramped up enforcement, because the city could make a huge profit if they knew where to look.

I didn't say to design it so that there are no mistakes. I said to design it so that when mistakes are made, the chance of lives being lost is greatly reduced. Freeway design works fine for long distances but it does NOT work for cities. What would work to make the city streets safer would be to take measures to reduce the average speed which cars travel, as well as decreasing the likelihood of accidental interaction between automobiles and human beings. If the police don't know where to look, I don't know what's wrong with them. How about starting with, I don't know, any one-way stretch of main (and while we are at it, cannon)?

Originally Posted by Millstone

To answer your other question, Rebecca & James. I've crossed King and Main lots without issues; it works great if you cross when you're supposed to. What now?

I was just curious because I can't believe that someone who lives close to Main cannot see that it is a problem. But I must have mis-interpreted your earlier messages since you do see that the driving is a problem (As well as disobedient pedestrians).

Things work fine if you cross when you are supposed to, but things happen - bad judgement calls, or who knows, honest mistakes, laziness, etc. My main point is that we cannot eliminate these incidents but by calming the traffic through the core, we can minimize the injuries associated with them.

Everywhere else, we see a value in calming traffic where pedestrian activity is higher - school zones, residential streets, even parking lots. Why can't we extend this logic to the main through streets in our core?

[crhayes]

Originally Posted by coalminecanary

Sorry - I didn't mean to get in the middle of a personal conversation, but it is a public discussion...

I didn't say to design it so that there are no mistakes. I said to design it so that when mistakes are made, the chance of lives being lost is greatly reduced. Freeway design works fine for long distances but it does NOT work for cities. What would work to make the city streets safer would be to take measures to reduce the average speed which cars travel, as well as decreasing the likelihood of accidental interaction between automobiles and human beings. If the police don't know where to look, I don't know what's wrong with them. How about starting with, I don't know, any one-way stretch of main (and while we are at it, cannon)?

I was just curious because I can't believe that someone who lives close to Main cannot see that it is a problem. But I must have mis-interpreted your earlier messages since you do see that the driving is a problem (As well as disobedient pedestrians).

Things work fine if you cross when you are supposed to, but things happen - bad judgement calls, or who knows, honest mistakes, laziness, etc. My main point is that we cannot eliminate these incidents but by calming the traffic through the core, we can minimize the injuries associated with them.

Everywhere else, we see a value in calming traffic where pedestrian activity is higher - school zones, residential streets, even parking lots. Why can't we extend this logic to the main through streets in our core?

I know this is a little off topic, but depending on the answer it may have relevance: does anyone know if the train tracks just north of Barton st. are used heavily?

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by crhayes

I know this is a little off topic, but depending on the answer it may have relevance: does anyone know if the train tracks just north of Barton st. are used heavily?

yes, they are CN railway trackage.

VIA rail from Toronto to Niagara Falls runs through here, along with any Toronto to NYS bound freight train traffic.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by ryan_mcgreal

This is dangerous nonsense. The laws of motion are more binding than those of the Ministry of Transportation.

right on. Im sick and tired of the 'powers that be' in this city always looking to cover their backsides when someone is killed.
I've been calling on the cops and city hall to advocate for safer streets downtown for years. Nobody will do it. Perhaps the 'spirit' of Bernie Morelli has also crept into the police force - sit on your fat backside, pretend it's 1950 and do nothing.

[adam]

A few things deeply trouble me about how we live:

- pedestrians feel they have to run across the road even if a car yields to them - people should have a right to cross the road in a dignified manner.

- today's cars are designed to go much faster than the legal speed limit

- it's very difficult to go below 20km/h in a minivan - the gas pedal just isn't sensitive enough (I've driven a handful of makes/models)

- major arteries in Hamilton are wider than the 403

- any new development - including parkland - is built for every occupant to park a single-occupancy vehicle

- according to a friend in a car dealership, as soon as gas prices started to go down again, minivan and SUV sales skyrocketed

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

From personal experience I can say that driving habits in Toronto are no more different than on Hamilton streets. Hamilton does not have a monopoly on poorly designed streets, and two way streets can be more poorly designed than one-way streets. If you don't beleive me try driving along Jarvis Street in Toronto sometime, or Kingston Road, for that matter.

No one is arguing that the 403 exit onto Main is poorly designed. Having said that, this is not because Main is a one-way street, rather it is because Main is a poorly designed one-way street.

I find this crazy to believe given some of our clashes over Harry Stinson, but I am finding more and more often that you are the voice of reason in many of these threads.