East/West LRT through the Downtown - Page 5

highwater · #81 Posted **Apr 18, 2009, 6:42 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Two-way conversion of King and Main is already being planned.

It is? Since when? Where did you hear this?

markbarbera · #82 Posted **Apr 18, 2009, 7:31 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by highwater

It is? Since when? Where did you hear this?

The Downtown Master Plan 5-year review was presented last summer. Unless I am mistaken, the recommendations for two-way conversion was accepted by council, with the exception of King Street conversion, which was deferred to coincide with the rapid transit planning now underway. The report doesn't mention Main Street, so I was wrong to include it in my original statement.

Millstone · #83 Posted **Apr 19, 2009, 4:46 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by adam

When LRT goes in they will have to resurface the road, repaint lines, rework traffic lights, etc So its a perfect opportunity to convert to 2-way.
This would be the most cost effective time to do the conversions, while shovels are already in the ground.

ps - completely off topic, but just to reply to Millstone's comment on road maintenance: the streets on the major arteries in Hamilton are in fantastic shape. Take a trip to Toronto or Vancouver or any other major city sometime and do a comparison. And those cities are thriving.

These are not in fantastic shape:

1) King east of Wellington (not TOO bad, just rough)
2) Burlington east of Sherman
3) Wellington at Burlington and south to Barton
4) Rymal Rd
5) Kenilworth from Burlington to Barton
6) Barton St through the village... almost
7) (Lower) Centennial Rd
8) Victoria north of Barton
9) Jolley Cut (poor sightlines and geometry, as discussed in other thread)
10) Upper Wellington south of the Linc
11) Most of former Hwy 8 through Stoney Creek

Plus the recent Spectator article about all the lines fading.

And it's not really a contest to figure out who has the worst roads. Any place can set an example either way. Toronto's allowed to not have great roads because their mayor states how much they hate cars. Vancouver I have no idea.

adam · #84 Posted **Apr 19, 2009, 12:31 PM**

Something I didn't mention in the last post is that Toronto also has a lot more traffic than Hamilton and is doing a lot better economically. Road resurfacing doesn't lead to a city's prosperity, so why should we put money into resurfacing? Counsellors always say we aren't a rich municipality. Here's an excellent opportunity to redirect some money and put it into something sustainable like LRT or wider sidewalks.

Wider Sidewalks, bike lanes and better pedestrian access, unlike roads, don't have to be fixed up every year after the winter. You build them and they last. They improve lifestyles and encourage city growth.

omro · #85 Posted **Apr 19, 2009, 7:14 PM**

Just to go back from the tagent to two-way road traffic (which would be also cool), does anyone know if the concept of a two-way LRT on Main has been totally dropped?

SteelTown · #86 Posted **Apr 20, 2009, 2:49 PM**

They'll still be two way LRT on Main St from University Plaza to Paradise Road and from Delta to Eastgate.

From Paradise to Delta it's either:
One way LRT
Two Way LRT on King

markbarbera · #87 Posted **Apr 20, 2009, 3:26 PM**

While Hamilton's Rapdi Transit office has restricted consideration to those two options, the Netrolinx BCA will have no restrictions to its study options.

highwater · #88 Posted **Apr 20, 2009, 5:21 PM**

What's the reasoning for the restrictions? Main seems a better candidate for two-way than King.

SteelTown · #89 Posted **Apr 20, 2009, 5:28 PM**

If two way on King it'll turn Main St two way, instead of 5 lanes it'll be 4 lanes, two lanes for each direction, with perhaps bigger sidewalks.

Two way LRT on King will turn King two way as well but no curbside parking, I'm sure International Village will hate this.

To me the best option is still one way LRT from Paradise to Delta. Have LRT on the second lane to have curbside parking.

Jon Dalton · #90 Posted **Apr 20, 2009, 6:48 PM**

I couldn't see business going down if King St. became 2-way and LRT at the same time. The benefits would outweigh the loss of street parking. Look at how busy Spadina is around the streetcar right of way - when this was proposed, businesses objected for the same reasons.

The results of the study surprised me - I thought they would favour Main over King, and tend to retain one-way car traffic.

omro · #91 Posted **Apr 20, 2009, 10:34 PM**

I'm a bit shocked, at no point in the past was King Street for two-way LRT ever mentioned, unless I've missed something.

If LRT goes two-way down King, surely it can't be in dedicated lanes, otherwise you won't be able to have car traffic on certain parts of it.

markbarbera · #92 Posted **Apr 21, 2009, 2:20 AM**

Exactly my thoughts, Omro. And if the LRT doesn't have dedicated right of way, you may as well not even bother with it, because you'll only end up with a streetcar like what's on Toronto's streets, which can be considered anything but rapid transit. At least buses can weave through traffic. A streetcar stuck in traffic is a step back. LRT must have its right-of-way if it is to work properly. Perhaps the experts at metrolinx can bring some common sense back into the equation.

omro · #93 Posted **Apr 21, 2009, 2:25 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Exactly my thoughts, Omro. And if the LRT doesn't have dedicated right of way, you may as well not even bother with it, because you'll only end up with a streetcar like what's on Toronto's streets, which can be considered anything but rapid transit. At least buses can weave through traffic. A streetcar stuck in traffic is a step back. LRT must have its right-of-way if it is to work properly. Perhaps the experts at metrolinx can bring some common sense back into the equation.

Are they planning to pedestrianise King then? International village with two-way LRT would only work if it were closed to cars, otherwise you're totally right - it'll just end up being a streetcar constrained by traffic. OK lane sharing happens in parts of many tram systems in the UK, however in areas where they want some speed, they are in dedicated lanes/streets.

Why is money being wasted by having Hamilton do one assessment and Metrolinx another? Who has the final say?

SteelTown · #94 Posted **Apr 21, 2009, 2:39 AM**

That'll take away the curbside parking along International Village (it's the narrowest part of King St) to accommodate two way LRT and single two way car traffic.

markbarbera · #95 Posted **Apr 21, 2009, 3:26 AM**

It's on Metrolinx' dime, so they will be doing the BCA and proposing what they see as the best RT /route concept for the city. The city of course can approve or reject their proposal.

Hamilton's Rapid Transit Office will be allowing for public output, as will Metrolinx, so it's up to us to let them know what we think on the proposed route. Right now I don't think they're in sync with many - in particular those who will be using the LRT.

markbarbera · #96 Posted **Apr 21, 2009, 3:33 AM**

As an aside, I see the map that illustrates the 25-year vision of Hamilton's B-L-A-S-T system shows the B-Line eventually extended north along Centennial to the QEW.

mishap · #97 Posted **Apr 21, 2009, 5:31 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by markbarbera

As an aside, I see the map that illustrates the 25-year vision of Hamilton's B-L-A-S-T system shows the B-Line eventually extended north along Centennial to the QEW.

At a public meeting a few months back, we were told that it wasn't going north at Centennial, but rather Fifty Road! Yet they still won't go into Dundas...

omro · #98 Posted **Apr 21, 2009, 12:04 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteelTown

That'll take away the curbside parking along International Village (it's the narrowest part of King St) to accommodate two way LRT and single two way car traffic.

Is that considered to be a good thing though? People want the curbside parking don't they?

SteelTown · #99 Posted **Apr 21, 2009, 12:41 PM**

^

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteelTown

If two way on King it'll turn Main St two way, instead of 5 lanes it'll be 4 lanes, two lanes for each direction, with perhaps bigger sidewalks.

Two way LRT on King will turn King two way as well but no curbside parking, I'm sure International Village will hate this.

To me the best option is still one way LRT from Paradise to Delta. Have LRT on the second lane to have curbside parking.

Blurr · #**100** Posted **Apr 21, 2009, 1:59 PM**

I was on the Main St. two way boat, but after seeing this I think I am leaning towards King two way.

I think that the downtown square on King is unique and beautiful and is something that should be shown to everyone who rides LRT. Missing the square will be a lost opportunity for the downtown core of downtown. Also the plethora of empty lots/ parking lots north of King in the downtown area will have excellent potential of being developed if LRT is on King.

As for the international village, sure, some things will change (maybe some store types need curbside parking), but the increased visibility in a vibrant, walkable downtown core will improve the situation of the area, and attract stores that appreciate the benefits of LRT.