DENVER | Transportation Thread

[Fritzdude]

Originally Posted by 1Post2

.

2) The streetcar "barely moves people", while bus rapid transit "is really more about getting more people from A to B." I'm not sure why this opinion is so pervasive among our officials, but I'm really hoping that the upcoming streetcar study will include some case studies from elsewhere. Are there really any cases where a high-volume bus line was replaced by streetcars and service or capacity actually became worse rather than better? Do they realize that Colfax doesn't/won't actually operate as true BRT?

I had a similar conversation with a Director at RTD recently and he was very negative toward street cars and said they weren't as economic viable as buses. I kept plugging away, though, and tried to explain that a majority of people view trains as a "preferred" method of travel and would more likely ride them over buses. Plus, the economic stimulus it provides an area is difficult to measure, although it should be taken into consideration when compared against buses. Businesses, TOD's, Utilities, and Residential complexes don't typically take into account Bus Routes, but their development would certainly be spurred if their was "infrastructure" built along a rail line because you know that it's going to be there for the indefinite future.

Imagine a Colfax car that runs from Stapleton - Fitzsimons - past civic park - and over I-25 past Invesco Field. How many professionals would use it go to work at the medical center? How many football fans would use it to get dropped off at a Broncos game? Ridership would be huge!

I think I'm like a majority of people when I say that I'm reluctant to take the bus unless it's a functional necessity, although I don't enjoy it. However, I would use rail in a hearbeat and have fun doing it.

[Top Of The Park]

The RTD directors probably won't even consider new modes for the future with all the cost overuns as of late. Yet they should obviously as many corridors would benefit....Broadway being another. I think they under-estimate the public's desire for streetcars. They could begin studying the potential now and not later, but I'm afraid it will have to wait till after Fastracks is done.

[bcp]

on this point, i believe hickenlooper and our city council is failing us (city folks) miserably.

there seems to be a pervasive belief that if we break from regional thinking on ANYTHING or fight for something for ourselves than we must not be supporting the region any longer.

it's regionalism gone amok to the point where its weak for the biggest player - denver baby.

get on it hick...broadway, colfax, speer starter streetcar system.

[Top Of The Park]

yep..its going to take Hick and Denver voters to make it happen. But it can be built in increments...i.e. Downtown/Colfax/ Colorado Blvd then go further later or Downtown to I-25/Broadway then later to Englewood.....

[SnyderBock]

RTD has indicated it is planing the successor to FasTracks and even used the name NexTracks to describe it. Wouldn't it be logical to assume that NexTracks will include streetcars on key inner city corridors such as Broadway, Colfax and Speer; as well as make major upgrades/additions to Union Station and all the FasTracks corridors?

[bunt_q]

I just had a realization... I'm about to leave my house to go to a movie tonight, and I decided to look at going to the Continental (Hampden & I-25, for those who don't know).

Most of you also know I live downtown. So I thought, hey, why don't I take the train down.

Do you guys *realize* how expensive RTD is? I guess I've never looked... but my light rail trip would be $6 round-trip ($3 for the one way). That's *absurd*...

Now, maybe I'm spoiled after just getting back from overseas... I grew kind of accustomed to getting all aroudn Lisbon for 1 euro per trip (or 4 euros for a day pass)...

I don't care how high gas prices are. I drive the most fuel inefficient monster in Curtis Park, and it would still cost me double on the train. To say nothing of the fact that I'd like to go with my girlfriend, so the train cost would actually be $12. We're talking *maybe* 20 miles round trip.

Am I the only one who thinks the light rail fare structure maybe needs to be reconsidered? If it's $3 to get to Hampden, I can only imagine what they'll charge to go to Boulder...


edit: needless to say, I'm driving

[Top Of The Park]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

RTD has indicted it is planing the successor to FasTracks and even used the name NexTracks to describe it. Wouldn't it be logical to assume that NexTracks will include streetcars on key inner city corridors such as Broadway, Colfax and Speer; as well as make major upgrades/additions to Union Station and all the FasTracks corridors?

With RTD.....not much is logical, but lets hope

[SnyderBock]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I just had a realization... I'm about to leave my house to go to a movie tonight, and I decided to look at going to the Continental (Hampden & I-25, for those who don't know).

Most of you also know I live downtown. So I thought, hey, why don't I take the train down.

Do you guys *realize* how expensive RTD is? I guess I've never looked... but my light rail trip would be $6 round-trip ($3 for the one way). That's *absurd*...

Now, maybe I'm spoiled after just getting back from overseas... I grew kind of accustomed to getting all around Lisbon for 1 euro per trip (or 4 euros for a day pass)...
I don't care how high gas prices are. I drive the most fuel inefficient monster in Curtis Park, and it would still cost me double on the train. To say nothing of the fact that I'd like to go with my girlfriend, so the train cost would actually be $12. We're talking *maybe* 20 miles round trip.

Am I the only one who thinks the light rail fare structure maybe needs to be reconsidered? If it's $3 to get to Hampden, I can only imagine what they'll charge to go to Boulder...


edit: needless to say, I'm driving

Of course, because of inflation (as a result of importing everything we need), a dollar is only worth about 10 cents now. So paying $6 is actually like paying only 60 cents for a round trip. 60 cents round trip is a pretty good deal if you ask me.

I think the only way to reverse inflation, might be to impose steep tariff taxes on all imports and then lower minimum wage.

[wong21fr]

^Jiga-za-what?

[bcp]

the dollar is weak, but come on...it's not that weak. more like 70/100 of what it was.

[FrancoRey]

I think it was a jab at 'serious sarcasm'. Joking, but not joking, if you will.

[1Post2]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Now, maybe I'm spoiled after just getting back from overseas... I grew kind of accustomed to getting all aroudn Lisbon for 1 euro per trip (or 4 euros for a day pass)...

You wish we were subsidized that generously...

[Fritzdude]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

Of course, because of inflation (as a result of importing everything we need), a dollar is only worth about 10 cents now. So paying $6 is actually like paying only 60 cents for a round trip. 60 cents round trip is a pretty good deal if you ask me.

I think the only way to reverse inflation, might be to impose steep tariff taxes on all imports and then lower minimum wage.

I had this same impression when purchasing tickets, especially when I compare it to getting on the "L" in Chicago, where you can go anywhere in the city for $1.50 - or maybe they've raised it another quarter..

Light Rail is not cheap to ride here.

[PHX31]

Just caught this thread and noticed the fares for RTD. Is it $3 to ride the light rail anywhere in Denver? Or are some routes different, maybe based on trip length?

The 20 mile light rail line opening in Phoenix in December is going to have the same fare schedule as the bus system... $1.25 per trip. I thought it was a good deal the first time I heard, but if it's $1.75 cheaper than places like Denver, it's a smokin' deal.

[Fritzdude]

Originally Posted by Top Of The Park

yep..its going to take Hick and Denver voters to make it happen. But it can be built in increments...i.e. Downtown/Colfax/ Colorado Blvd then go further later or Downtown to I-25/Broadway then later to Englewood.....

Let's assume that street-cars were built along the 3 major streets of Denver:

Broadway
Colfax
Speer

Where would the end-points be?

Broadway: It would be nice to see the north end start near the new Denegro Market (which is actually Brighton Blvd) and run south through Arapahoe, past Civic Park, past the museums, past the Gates re-development, and possibly all the way to englewood.

Colfax: Running from east to west - it would nice to see Stapleton incorporated just to the north on Peoria, then run from Fitzsimons Medical Center, alongside the CBD, and crossing I-25 and dropping off at Invesco Field - or possibly further east..?

Spear: from North to South - maybe starting at Federal and running south past 1-25 - past the Pepsi Center, CBD, alongside the river, past Cherry Creek, and ending at Colorado Blvd.

How's that for a convenient way to get around the city?

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by PHX31

Just caught this thread and noticed the fares for RTD. Is it $3 to ride the light rail anywhere in Denver? Or are some routes different, maybe based on trip length?

The 20 mile light rail line opening in Phoenix in December is going to have the same fare schedule as the bus system... $1.25 per trip. I thought it was a good deal the first time I heard, but if it's $1.75 cheaper than places like Denver, it's a smokin' deal.

No, PHX31. $3.00 is for either express buses or more than two zones on the light rail. Local buses and 1 or 2 zone light rail fares are $1.75...

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Top Of The Park]

Originally Posted by Fritzdude

Let's assume that street-cars were built along the 3 major streets of Denver:

Broadway
Colfax
Speer

Where would the end-points be?

Broadway: It would be nice to see the north end start near the new Denegro Market (which is actually Brighton Blvd) and run south through Arapahoe, past Civic Park, past the museums, past the Gates re-development, and possibly all the way to englewood.

Colfax: Running from east to west - it would nice to see Stapleton incorporated just to the north on Peoria, then run from Fitzsimons Medical Center, alongside the CBD, and crossing I-25 and dropping off at Invesco Field - or possibly further east..?

Spear: from North to South - maybe starting at Federal and running south past 1-25 - past the Pepsi Center, CBD, alongside the river, past Cherry Creek, and ending at Colorado Blvd.

How's that for a convenient way to get around the city?

Two things you aren't considering. First, do they residents want streetcars in their area/will they allow them. Secondly, there needs to be density in terms of potential ridership. Why build into an area where ridership is extremely light (one story residentail), or the potential doesn't support the daily operation in terms of fares...i.e. The 9-Mile leg of Light Rail (mistake) While not as expensive as light rail, Streetcars are pretty damn expensive and will need to be built in increments when somebody has the plan and money (could be awhile). By building on Broadway to I-25, you replace part of the second busiest local route '0' and free up the buses for feeder service. Broadway has multi-unit residential and there's a real need. By running Streetcars down the Mall and Broadway to I-25 you accomplish even more.

[davedensf]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I just had a realization... I'm about to leave my house to go to a movie tonight, and I decided to look at going to the Continental (Hampden & I-25, for those who don't know).

Most of you also know I live downtown. So I thought, hey, why don't I take the train down.


edit: needless to say, I'm driving

In San Francisco, it's $8 for the round trip from the Daly City station to the Oakland Coliseum station on BART. So $6 does sound excessive, but not ridiculously so.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by glowrock

No, PHX31. $3.00 is for either express buses or more than two zones on the light rail. Local buses and 1 or 2 zone light rail fares are $1.75...

Aaron (Glowrock)

yes, for some stupid reason rtd felt it necessary to divide a 13 mile rail line into four fare zones. and going from downtown to hampden - not even leaving the city proper, for crying out loud - covers three zones.

basically, our light rail fare structure is designed *assuming* that nearly everybody who rides the thing is either on a reduced fare, or an employer/school-provided pass... just more proof that our system is a rather pathetic commuter-only system, and has little if any utility for everyday residents of the city.

[SnyderBock]

Originally Posted by bcp

the dollar is weak, but come on...it's not that weak. more like 70/100 of what it was.

Really? That's odd, because I was being conservative. Actual estimates place the dollar at only being worth 2 cents compared to a silver and gold backed dollar of 1892. So that means a dollar has been inflated over the last ~115 years so that a dollar from today is only worth 2 cents in 1892 value.

If we take the dollar from the 1940's, then today's dollar is only worth 10 cents - that's were I was getting that figure.

Here, this will give you an idea of just how much inflation is occurring. This chart shows the price of gold (red) compared to inflation adjust price of gold (black) - (as of 2007):

The thin black line is a very basic inflation adjusted level of what the gold price really is today, adjusted back to 1983 dollars. The usual inflation adjusted gold price charts do not really reflect the price correctly, as they only use the government inflation statistics that are very underreported. Here, I am making a very rough chart with the thin black line based on my analysis given in the above paragraphs… yes I am a mathematician...

The US is in the process of transferring 1 trillion dollars in wealth to other countries. That money goes to them and does not magically reappear back in the USA. Those countries don't buy USA produced goods. That money goes and stays gone. The Government has to "make" more money to replace it - thus inflating the value of the dollar. We are in a crises. To stop this, we need to charge a tax on all imports, so that they will cost equal to any domestically produced goods. We must also transform our economy to domestically produced energies. This will stop the transfer of wealth and stimulate domestic manufacturing and industry. Furthermore, lowering the minimum wage will make it appealing for business to hire US Citizens instead of outsourcing to China and India.

So seriously, a 10% tariff tax on all imports and a reduction of minimum wage by 50% should stabilize the economy. The 10% tariff tax could be used to pay for more customs, homeland defense and FDA inspectors - to better insure that which is imported into this country is actually inspected and guaranteed to be safe.