[Moncton] The Three Sisters - 20 Record Street | 3x58m | 3x15s | Under Construction

[BaseballFan]

It’s on PAC now, here is Lafford’s Record St development:

[josh_cat_eyes]

Originally Posted by BaseballFan

It’s on PAC now, here is Lafford’s Record St development:

Wow this is huge!! I wish there was more street frontage on foundry though, even 2-3 storeys would make a big difference.

Here is the rest of the PDF
https://www5.moncton.ca/docs/pac/PAC..._20_Record.pdf

[OliverD]

Speaking as an outsider, this is what frustrates me about new development in downtown Moncton. There's a lot happening, but much of it isn't really street oriented and is more of a hybrid of what you typically see in urban cores and in suburbs. The Hyatt Place and Junction Urban Village are other prime examples of this.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by OliverD

Speaking as an outsider, this is what frustrates me about new development in downtown Moncton. There's a lot happening, but much of it isn't really street oriented and is more of a hybrid of what you typically see in urban cores and in suburbs. The Hyatt Place and Junction Urban Village are other prime examples of this.

I believe we call it Tower in a Park development, and this is one of those. These developments look like they've been designed for a suburban avenue and less so for a city's urban core. Little to no street interaction, a podium that snakes around for some reason, and three matching heights making it look and feel even more blocky and chubby than it needs to be. Shrink the floorplates and make them 20s/15s/10s and it would be a bit more tolerable, but they're still missing street interaction and a general urban feel. Just a bigger version of the predominant five floor apartment buildings that dot Mountain Road. The only streetfront that looks good is Record, but it's entirely absent on Assomption. And why is there surface parking? Sorry, Moncton.

At least there'll be more people living downtown. That's the only upside on this.

[josh_cat_eyes]

Originally Posted by OliverD

Speaking as an outsider, this is what frustrates me about new development in downtown Moncton. There's a lot happening, but much of it isn't really street oriented and is more of a hybrid of what you typically see in urban cores and in suburbs. The Hyatt Place and Junction Urban Village are other prime examples of this.

I couldn’t agree with you more! The Hyatt Place is not as bad as Junction Urban Village though. At least the sidewalk goes up to the edge of Hyatt Place unlike Tanarey Place.

[MonctonRad]

Here's the actual request for variance:

From T. Hicks Construction Management Service on behalf of J.N. LAFFORD REALTY INC, 20 Record Street, Moncton (PID 70360011) a conditional use application to develop a parking garage below the minimum geodetic elevation and variances to:

(1) provide parking between the façade and the street when parking is not required in the CBD Zone;
(2) provide more than two driveways;
(3) increase the front and flankage yard setbacks;
(4) reduce the rear yard setback;
(5) not provide jogs and recesses for portions of the development;
(6) vary the stepback requirement in a few areas for a phased mixed- use development with commercial and retail on the ground floor, underground parking, and three 14-storey residential towers (File: 21-43646 & 21- 43647)

Site plan:


North elevation:


I don't know why they are calling the towers 14 storey. I counted the floors - there are 15 of them. The top floor however is apparently mechanical. Maybe this makes a difference.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I don't know why they are calling the towers 14 storey. I counted the floors - there are 15 of them. The top floor however is apparently mechanical. Maybe this makes a difference.

The elevation shows 14 floors plus one labeled penthouse. If they're not counting that I assume they mean a mechanical penthouse then. So 14 habitable floors.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I believe we call it Tower in a Park development, and this is one of those. These developments look like they've been designed for a suburban avenue and less so for a city's urban core. Little to no street interaction, a podium that snakes around for some reason, and three matching heights making it look and feel even more blocky and chubby than it needs to be. Shrink the floorplates and make them 20s/15s/10s and it would be a bit more tolerable, but they're still missing street interaction and a general urban feel. Just a bigger version of the predominant five floor apartment buildings that dot Mountain Road. The only streetfront that looks good is Record, but it's entirely absent on Assomption. And why is there surface parking? Sorry, Moncton.

At least there'll be more people living downtown. That's the only upside on this.

I get what you are saying, but I think you are being a little harsh.

- The absence of street interaction with Assumption is probably partly based on the the nature of Assumption itself (a boulevard whose primary purpose (at that point) is as a bypass on the south side of downtown), and partly because a setback was necessary due to the pre-existing NB Power substation bordering Assumption.
- There will be ground level retail/commercial facing Record, and at the corner or Record and Foundry.
- The setback on Foundry itself is really the only controversy, but this provides an entry point for the entire development around which the three towers are clustered. The surface parking here is modest, and I presume is designed for visitors to the development.

Keep in mind that this development is on the edge of the downtown core. If it were on Main Street, further east on Assumption, or in the downtown proper, like on Downing Street, I would agree completely with your reservations.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

- The setback on Record itself is really the only controversy, but this provides an entry point for the entire development around which the three towers are clustered. The surface parking here is modest, and I presume is designed for visitors to the development.

Regardless, there shouldn't be street fronting surface parking. Surely they could have designed the site to have the surface parking at the back. That along with some variation in the tower heights would make this entire development a lot more palatable.

And even if it sits outside of downtown proper today that will likely not be the case in the future.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

- The absence of street interaction with Assumption is probably partly based on the the nature of Assumption itself (a boulevard whose primary purpose (at that point) is as a bypass on the south side of downtown), and partly because a setback was necessary due to the pre-existing NB Power substation bordering Assumption.

Assomption doesn't need to be a boulevard whose primary purpose is a bypass for downtown. It can be, with some work, an urban avenue with a friendlier environment for residents, pedestrians, and active transportation users. This development had a chance to front onto Assomption and turns its back on it entirely.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

- There will be ground level retail/commercial facing Record, and at the corner or Record and Foundry.

Which is fine, but I don't think it makes up for the lack thereof on Foundry and Assomption. Surface parking in a new development in the downtown is inexcusable, IMO.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

- The setback on Record itself is really the only controversy, but this provides an entry point for the entire development around which the three towers are clustered. The surface parking here is modest, and I presume is designed for visitors to the development.

Surely there's enough surface parking throughout the downtown as is for visitors if they want to swing by. Is this development being built for residents of downtown or for people visiting?

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Keep in mind that this development is on the edge of the downtown core. If it were on Main Street, further east on Assumption, or in the downtown proper, like on Downing Street, I would agree completely with your reservations.

The downtown core will eventually have to expand but developments like this really, really, really take away from what Moncton could and should be building in its downtown. This development should be on Mountain - not downtown.
Disappointed but not overly surprised. I figured something like this was coming when the rumour was that there were three different buildings of the same height. Very lazy and unimaginative.

[MonctonRad]

I still am excited by this development. The downtown south of Main Street needs a stimulus like this to jump-start further development. The ocean of surface parking there has to disappear. Since the parking is all privately leased, this is nothing more than an urban dead space sucking the oxygen from the downtown. No one else can use the parking so it is the city planning corollary of a bed blocker in the hospital. This development is large, of good quality, and will give encouragement to future developers to maximize the usage of other under-utilized properties in the area. I for one welcome this development with open arms.

[Riberview]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I still am excited by this development. The downtown south of Main Street needs a stimulus like this to jump-start further development. The ocean of surface parking there has to disappear. Since the parking is all privately leased, this is nothing more than an urban dead space sucking the oxygen from the downtown. No one else can use the parking so it is the city planning corollary of a bed blocker in the hospital. This development is large, of good quality, and will give encouragement to future developers to maximize the usage of other under-utilized properties in the area. I for one welcome this development with open arms.

Well said. This is an attractive development. I count 22 surface parking spots. Hardly the end of the world I would think.
Consider what this area has been for the past decades, this ought to be considered an improvement.

Could they tweak it a bit? Maybe. But it's a substantial building. Hopefully the city works with them and this project is a GO.

[Monctoncore]

Originally Posted by OliverD

Regardless, there shouldn't be street fronting surface parking. Surely they could have designed the site to have the surface parking at the back. That along with some variation in the tower heights would make this entire development a lot more palatable.

And even if it sits outside of downtown proper today that will likely not be the case in the future.

I am sure that there is still time for them to change that around, maybe turn it into a plaza instead of parking. I think the city and the developer can go over this and figure out what to do. The parking is really the only sore spot in all of this, I’ll be interesting to see what changes between now and development. I’m hoping the city will push back on the parking and say on street parking will be enough.

[MonctonRad]

Here's a larger version of the initial render:



A comment I read on another site was from someone who seemed knowledgeable, and indicated that the buildout for the three phases of this development will be 5-7 years. In the universal scheme of things, this is not too bad, and mirrors the buildout of the Junction Urban Village.

[jonny golden]

Let's also remember that what we've seen with this development may not be the final product. This will take several years to complete, and they could make changes as they go along. In fact, the last thing at the bottom of the PDF says preliminary not for construction. If we look at the Junction, they've decided to pivot and tweak things over time.

The one thing that jumps out to me about these plans, is the set-back on Foundry. I'd be absolutely OK with it if it was an attractive court yard style set up. Trees, flower beds, benches etc.. A gathering place where you could even have ground level hospitality type amenities. They have an opportunity to do something really special with that space, in fact I think it would be better than having the building abutting the sidewalk.

But the current plan to have a parking lot there is terrible IMHO. No how much planting you do to try and offset cars/trucks/asphalt.

[Aging Hipster]

I, for one, welcome our new point tower overlords 😉 I'm honestly surprised at the commitment to building a street wall on Record St and even Foundry St to the degree that they are. There isn't really any connecting urban fabric between Main and that area. Will pedestrians want to wander down Foundry or Lutz? There's nothing there for them now. It's actually pretty daring to build all that street-level retail.

Would I prefer a totally wrapped block? Sure. But on the other hand, there's no street parking on Foundry and Waterloo is mostly residential. They aren't going to want more car activity there. And, it's pretty hard to create that enclosed urban feeling without any other street walls facing it.

This is going to change the face of a part of downtown that has been down in the dumps as long as I can remember. Who knows, maybe this will inspire even more development in the oceans of parking between Main and Assumption.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by jonny golden

Let's also remember that what we've seen with this development may not be the final product. This will take several years to complete, and they could make changes as they go along. In fact, the last thing at the bottom of the PDF says preliminary not for construction. If we look at the Junction, they've decided to pivot and tweak things over time.

The one thing that jumps out to me about these plans, is the set-back on Foundry. I'd be absolutely OK with it if it was an attractive court yard style set up. Trees, flower beds, benches etc.. A gathering place where you could even have ground level hospitality type amenities. They have an opportunity to do something really special with that space, in fact I think it would be better than having the building abutting the sidewalk.

But the current plan to have a parking lot there is terrible IMHO. No how much planting you do to try and offset cars/trucks/asphalt.

I moved your comment here. It appears that one of the mods has moved all comments pertaining to the Record Street development here, to this new thread created by BaseballFan.

[jonny golden]

Reposting.
Let's also remember that what we've seen with this development may not be the final product. This will take several years to complete, and they could make changes as they go along. In fact, the last thing at the bottom of the PDF says preliminary not for construction. If we look at the Junction, they've decided to pivot and tweak things over time.

The one thing that jumps out to me about these plans, is the set-back on Foundry. I'd be absolutely OK with it if it was an attractive court yard style set up. Trees, flower beds, benches etc.. A gathering place where you could even have ground level hospitality type amenities. They have an opportunity to do something really special with that space, in fact I think it would be better than having the building abutting the sidewalk.

But the current plan to have a parking lot there is terrible IMHO. No how much planting you do to try and offset cars/trucks/asphalt.

[Taeolas]

This is going to be yet another significant project for Moncton. Eyeballing it on Google Maps, I think I like it better because it is perpendicular to Assumption. There likely isn't ever going to be any significant development on the other side of Assumption due to the river, so this will be one of the faces of downtown. If it was parallel to Assumption, then the uniformity of the 3 towers would be more noticeable. But because it is perpendicular, future developments will eventually fill in on either side of it, giving more variety to the river-"face" of Moncton's downtown, and the uniformity of the towers will be less of a factor.

Plus we could hopefully start seeing 20 stories coming in Moncton's midterm future at this rate, and this would be a nice first step, stepping up to taller stuff further inland.

Sure the design could be improved and I'm sure they're taking all comments under consideration; but as a first stab, it is acceptable IMO.

[Nashe]

I'd love to see a "tighter" footprint, too, but I'm very happy with this project, regardless. I'm sure MonctonRad can trump me here, but I grew up an hour North of Moncton in the 70's and trips to the city were infrequent... probably once every few months.

I moved here around 1991 and development was steady but slow for the 90's... then picked up a bit of steam in the 00's... and even more so in the 10's... I literally feel like I'm seeing the city "spring up" right around me now. Even with the problems it's facing, currently... it's an exciting time to be in Moncton. This is breakneck pace for what I'm used to.