Philadelphia Transportation Thread

[City Wide]

[QUOTE=Skintreesnail;8490459]If they can get a billion for the KOP extension (which doesn't appear to be on the chopping block), I would hope they can do the same for the trolleys. The NHSL daily ridership less than each of the subway-surface trolley lines alone:
/QUOTE]

As #13 rider I hope you're right and the money can be found, but-----rebuilding existing trolley lines in west Philly and a small part of Delaware Co. doesn't have the same sex appeal as extending a suburban line to one of the biggest malls in the country. (and there's great reason to doubt if that extension will happen anytime soon)

SEPTA all too often has a one size fits all mentality, and in this case where having trolleys that are twice as large as the existing makes good sense during the rush hours, even if headways are cut back alittle, but on off peak hours cutting back headway to something like 2 or 3 times a hour would (IMO) just end up cutting down ridership. Presently I could care less about a schedule (and I think SEPTA operates that way as well) so I just go out and wait on the corner knowing in 5 or 10 minutes at the most a trolley will come along. Tell me I'm going to have to wait 30 minutes and I'll do a Uber.

[mcgrath618]

SEPTA Regional Rail set to Return to Coatesville!
https://www.dailylocal.com/news/sept...866b9a0c2.html
I don't think anyone saw this coming. Awesome news.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

SEPTA Regional Rail set to Return to Coatesville!
https://www.dailylocal.com/news/sept...866b9a0c2.html
I don't think anyone saw this coming. Awesome news.

Next stop Parkesburg! Which would be a good place for one of SEPTA's giant parking lot/stations. I wonder if SEPTA can consider adding Coatsvilles because they are planning to receive their order of double decker passenger cars in the next year or so. As it now many of the rush hour trains on this line are nearly packed. They need to find a way of cutting the travel time down.

https://www.phillyvoice.com/septa-do...ains-progress/

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by City Wide

Next stop Parkesburg! Which would be a good place for one of SEPTA's giant parking lot/stations. I wonder if SEPTA can consider adding Coatsvilles because they are planning to receive their order of double decker passenger cars in the next year or so. As it now many of the rush hour trains on this line are nearly packed. They need to find a way of cutting the travel time down.

https://www.phillyvoice.com/septa-do...ains-progress/

Let's hope the old R5 can go all the way to Lancaster while we're at it!!! And hopefully SEPTA can be smart about investing in rail service from Elwyn to West Chester. WC alone grew from 18,461 in 2010 to 19,928 in 2016, a 7.9% increase. Chester County grew from 498,886 in 2010 to 519,293 in 2017, growing 4.1%. I'm thinking Chester County would have growth of about 8-10% once 2020 Census comes about, giving it about 550K people.

SEPTA needs to understand that it's priorities are serving residents of SE PA and it's not just a moneymaking venture, especially as Philadelphia and the Delaware Valley continues to grow!

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

Let's hope the old R5 can go all the way to Lancaster while we're at it!!! And hopefully SEPTA can be smart about investing in rail service from Elwyn to West Chester. WC alone grew from 18,461 in 2010 to 19,928 in 2016, a 7.9% increase. Chester County grew from 498,886 in 2010 to 519,293 in 2017, growing 4.1%. I'm thinking Chester County would have growth of about 8-10% once 2020 Census comes about, giving it about 550K people.

SEPTA needs to understand that it's priorities are serving residents of SE PA and it's not just a moneymaking venture, especially as Philadelphia and the Delaware Valley continues to grow!

I agree, the Media/Elwyn Line needs to become the Media/West Chester Line! West Chester is the only county seat in the Philadelphia area that does not have Regional Rail service. Additionally, it is extremely hard for someone living in Southwest Delco to get to Chester County. For example, if someone lives in Brookhaven and wanted to get to West Chester, then they would have to take three buses (117, 109/113, and 104, or 117, 110/111, and 104). Restoring the full line should be a priority for SEPTA!

[skyscraper]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Amtrak was created because the legacy roads (many of which donn't exist anymore) wanted out of their gov mandated obligation to provide pssenger services.

Just because the government says something is essential doesn't mean it's actually essential.

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

The market on many routes decreased to pitiful levels, but many where also seeing healthy ridership, but the rail roads did not see the vast majority of their passenger services as having a bright future. But governments across the nation acknowledged they didn't want to see paasenger services dissappear, and paired with the notion that a country should maintain at least a bare bones passenger rail network, Congress created the NPRC.

all true, and all proof that the government needs to stay the hell out of it and not try to manufacture need.
If there is need for a railroad, such as the Boston-DC corridor that can be profitable, the private sector will provide it. Hell, there might even be competition for such routes, which would exert downward pressure on ticket prices. But in areas where it's not necessary, kill it. I don't understand why people want to keep service that so few find necessary. People drive their cars or fly, that's called competition from other sectors. It's healthy. You can't force a railroad on people who don't want it just because you think they should want it.

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

moving people around by train should not first and foremost be about the pursuit of profit. It is a neccessary service in the interest of society

clearly it's not, at least not everywhere, or the ridership levels wouldn't fall to "pitiful levels".

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

that should not be expected to rake in huge returns for shareholders.

why should this be any different from any other enterprise? and because it loses money, the government (that is, our tax dollars) should be put into a sinkhole?

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

The economic benefits come from facilitating the mobility of people for the purposes that are required by those people (tourism, business, recreation, family, etc.), not the actual physical transport of people.

I don't even understand that statement. if moving them from point a to point b by train is losing money, do it some other way. who cares why they need to get where they need to get: transportation is a service like any other. what they do after they get off the train is a separate issue.

[City Wide]

^^^^^^^^^^^^all you're saying hangs together sortof (except highways and airlines get huge gov't allowances) but where has this worked? Seriously the only place I know of is UK and that fell apart in a couple of years. I realize just because hasn't worked doesn't mean it can't, but no other country even wants to try. Japan and Switzerland are sortof semi private, but couldn't get by without gov't help. I'm guessing you are against gov't monies going to transit again with the narrow thinking that it should pay for itself. Can you imagine NYC with maybe only 25% of it's subways, the ones that might in some fashion break even. Berlin just announced that it'll be spending $32B for local transit. Not having the gov't involved is the big exception for real, largely accepted reasons.
I'll be glad to take this to the transportation section if you will, since there isn't a philosophy of gov't section! Please, I'll be looking for your response over there.

[City Wide]

^^^^^^^Time for buzz kill to step in here---wanting SEPTA to go to West Chester is reasonable, but----going 3 miles to Wawa is costing $120M, and back in'14 the increased ridership was projected to be 400 new riders per day. So, as much sense as that type of expansion might make and even be needed, don't hold your breath. SEPTA just doesn't have the budget for expansion. It's priorities are to take any new money and try to get some of their system out of the dark ages. Now if all the new housing that's been built in the last 15 years out in that area had included in their cost a transportation fee of $1K maybe the conversation could be different.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by skyscraper

Just because the government says something is essential doesn't mean it's actually essential.

all true, and all proof that the government needs to stay the hell out of it and not try to manufacture need.
If there is need for a railroad, such as the Boston-DC corridor that can be profitable, the private sector will provide it. Hell, there might even be competition for such routes, which would exert downward pressure on ticket prices. But in areas where it's not necessary, kill it. I don't understand why people want to keep service that so few find necessary. People drive their cars or fly, that's called competition from other sectors. It's healthy. You can't force a railroad on people who don't want it just because you think they should want it.

clearly it's not, at least not everywhere, or the ridership levels wouldn't fall to "pitiful levels".

why should this be any different from any other enterprise? and because it loses money, the government (that is, our tax dollars) should be put into a sinkhole?

I don't even understand that statement. if moving them from point a to point b by train is losing money, do it some other way. who cares why they need to get where they need to get: transportation is a service like any other. what they do after they get off the train is a separate issue.

I've never seen someone write so much, so needlessly. Here:

"I don't understand how transportation works, but I read Atlas Shrugged and I just wanted everyone to know."

For future conversations you can just copy paste that and save everyone a lot of time.

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

SEPTA Regional Rail set to Return to Coatesville!
https://www.dailylocal.com/news/sept...866b9a0c2.html
I don't think anyone saw this coming. Awesome news.

Saw it on Facebook/Twitter the other day as well. It's about time! As a resident of Valley Twp, I am ecstatic! I must say that it's been due to the incompetence of the Coatesville officials as to why they lost service in the first place. They let the city go downhill in the '90s and council seemed disinterested in anything that would have brought jobs to the city. It looks like they're changing their tune. I'm noticing more in the way of reinvestment/plans for reinvestment in the city. This, and the new train station will go hand-in-hand in not only revitalizing Coatesville, but it will have a ripple effect on the surrounding area, too.

Several months ago I had a dream that my wife, son, and I were walking down BUS 30 in the heart of Coatesville, and it had a Mainline-type vibe, almost like walking around Ardmore. The SEPTA station was there, and there were all kinds of cafes and coffee shops lining the sidewalks. Hopefully this dream will come to fruition!

With regard to another parking facility for the rolling stock, they are doing a massive expansion of the Frasier yard.

[Urbanthusiat]

I don't see why a government shouldn't subsidize passenger rail to incentivize certain settlement patterns. If you're someone who thinks "We should try to fight climate change and we're willing to spend some money to do it," then why wouldn't passenger rail fall into that category? Incentivizing urban development instead of exurban development is probably one if the more important ways to minimize human impact on the environment. Passenger rail doesn't need to make money in the present because it is an investment that will pay off in the future. Has SEPTA ever turned an accounting profit? No. But surely few people would say that all of these years we've been funding it have been a waste of money. The state has clearly benefited financially from subsidizing SEPTA. The value that Amtrak generates doesn't get fully recaptured by Amrtrak per se, but through various other taxes and economic benefits. Amtrak's operating loss considers the whole cost of service, but not the whole benefits. The idea that a government program losing money on paper means that it's not a net positive economically is silly. Not recapturing the value is a feature, not a bug.

[iheartphilly]

^
I don't know if anyone disputes that there's no value to having Amtrak. But, it surely helps to run a profitable rail transport so that the profits can be re-invested into replacing old equipment, technology, and upgrade. I mean we can't even get positive train control on the rail system to prevent accidents. Just think if CSX or Norfolk Southern couldn't make enough to keep operations running, they would be out of business in a hurry.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

^
I don't know if anyone disputes that there's no value to having Amtrak. But, it surely helps to run a profitable rail transport so that the profits can be re-invested into replacing old equipment, technology, and upgrade. I mean we can't even get positive train control on the rail system to prevent accidents. Just think if CSX or Norfolk Southern couldn't make enough to keep operations running, they would be out of business in a hurry.

google Conrail, which used to be headquartered right here in Philly

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by City Wide

google Conrail, which used to be headquartered right here in Philly

It still is! http://www.conrail.com/

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by Jonboy1983

Saw it on Facebook/Twitter the other day as well. It's about time! As a resident of Valley Twp, I am ecstatic! I must say that it's been due to the incompetence of the Coatesville officials as to why they lost service in the first place. They let the city go downhill in the '90s and council seemed disinterested in anything that would have brought jobs to the city. It looks like they're changing their tune. I'm noticing more in the way of reinvestment/plans for reinvestment in the city. This, and the new train station will go hand-in-hand in not only revitalizing Coatesville, but it will have a ripple effect on the surrounding area, too.

Several months ago I had a dream that my wife, son, and I were walking down BUS 30 in the heart of Coatesville, and it had a Mainline-type vibe, almost like walking around Ardmore. The SEPTA station was there, and there were all kinds of cafes and coffee shops lining the sidewalks. Hopefully this dream will come to fruition!

With regard to another parking facility for the rolling stock, they are doing a massive expansion of the Frasier yard.

Coatesville is considered a part of the Mainline nowadays??? I'm still hoping the old R5 can go all the way to Lancaster and rail service can return to West Chester in the not too distant future.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

It still is! http://www.conrail.com/

How about that. Its certainly not the same company it once was! " On June 1, 1999, Conrail began operating as a Switching and Terminal Railroad for its owners, NS and CSX,----------"

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by City Wide

^^^^^^^Time for buzz kill to step in here---wanting SEPTA to go to West Chester is reasonable, but----going 3 miles to Wawa is costing $120M, and back in'14 the increased ridership was projected to be 400 new riders per day. So, as much sense as that type of expansion might make and even be needed, don't hold your breath. SEPTA just doesn't have the budget for expansion. It's priorities are to take any new money and try to get some of their system out of the dark ages. Now if all the new housing that's been built in the last 15 years out in that area had included in their cost a transportation fee of $1K maybe the conversation could be different.

The thing that really sucks is that they did go to West Chester ... in the 80s. The R3's original terminus really was West Chester! Chesco basically decided to invest in commuter service on the Main Line at the expense of the West Chester Branch, which was a rational decision in its day (the West Chester Branch is an inordinately circuitous way to service West Chester and far from Chesco's main population centers aside from that terminus, then and now) but not very prophetic. As it turns out, Chester County would have been better off just letting Amtrak upgrade the Main Line, which, under Gunn, they were going to do anyway, and investing in the West Chester Branch, where SEPTA could then piggyback off the Amtrak upgrades and have both services basically for the price of one.

[Delthayre]

I suspect that this is an opportune moment to note that Vukan Vuchic and Shinya Kichuchi's plans for SEPTA's regional rail have been made available by the University of Pennsylvania.

This includes:

General Operations Plan for the SEPTA Regional High Speed System.

Short-term Improvements for SEPTA's Regional Rail System

A Plan for SEPTA's Regional Metrorail System

They also prepared a report about the Subway-Surface Trolleys:

Recommendations for Improvement of Green Lines Subway Operations

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

Coatesville is considered a part of the Mainline nowadays??? I'm still hoping the old R5 can go all the way to Lancaster and rail service can return to West Chester in the not too distant future.

You might want to re-read my post. It was literally "in a dream" I had. Yeah, right now, N.O. NO WAY is Coatesville main-line.

As far as the R5 possibly extending to Lancaster, I'm not sure if that would be feasible. We're talking easily a 90-minute commute each way. Did SEPTA ever serve Lancaster? As far as SEPTA returning to West Chester, I did my masters paper on that subject back in 2010. The population growth along that line is statistically significant, and a return on service could significantly impact development in areas within a mile of each proposed station location. One of the sources I used for this paper was a peer-reviewed paper about the light rail line in Phoenix. They essentially argued that the light rail line linking Phoenix with the airport and Arizona State had a significant impact on land use; it sparked all kinds of transit-oriented development. Since then, several new lines are either under development or are operational.

I know that cost and various other projects with a higher priority are the main reasons why SEPTA hasn't pursued this much. To an extent they have, as I believe they're extending the line to Wawa (whoopee). I follow Vista.com on Facebook and Linkedin, which gives all kinds of business updates for Chester County. I saw a county-wide map of planned site development. There are a ton of proposed developments (residential and otherwise) that show up in and around West Chester. If these are people who have to commute to Delaware County for business, then the WC line would be a huge benefit to them.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Delthayre

I suspect that this is an opportune moment to note that Vukan Vuchic and Shinya Kichuchi's plans for SEPTA's regional rail have been made available by the University of Pennsylvania.

This includes:

General Operations Plan for the SEPTA Regional High Speed System.

Short-term Improvements for SEPTA's Regional Rail System

A Plan for SEPTA's Regional Metrorail System

They also prepared a report about the Subway-Surface Trolleys:

Recommendations for Improvement of Green Lines Subway Operations

My thoughts:

1) Heh. As if electrification would have been realistically funded to go back to Newtown. A resumption of diesel service would have made so much more sense.
2) We ended up getting most of these things, albeit a bit later than expected. We got a yard at Wayne Junction, a Bryn Mawr that can handle local trains, the CCCC, the Airport Line, and the Wawa extension. The only things we really didn't get were the Newtown extension (see #1) and the Chestnut Hill West realignment, which was called the Swampoodle Connection.
3) WHY DON'T AMTRAK HARRISBURG TRAINS TERMINATE AT SUBURBAN. It makes so much sense, and they used to do it. It'd be easy; just have Amtrak use track 0.