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  #201  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 9:28 PM
LightingGuy LightingGuy is offline
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There are numerous reports of a coming Commercial Real Estate crash. Thoughts? It's a market I know very little about.
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  #202  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 9:40 PM
whatnext whatnext is offline
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
Early reports I've heard suggest that the Republicans aren't touching this. Usually in these debt ceiling negotiations, the GOP slashes social programs and things that help working class people, not corporate subsidies.

That said, I think that in the case of Stellantis, the Ontario government should have promised a token amount - like $500 million (still not chump change) and then called Stellantis' bluff. It's a much smaller plant than VW, and Stellantis has probably sunk enough planning effort into the project that they have to write off a certain amount if they decide to move the whole project to some southern state. Also, the VW subsidy as I understand it is more about foregone future tax revenues than cutting a cheque today.
And then we have this report:

Stellantis Battery Plant Subsidy Likely to Exceed What Trudeau Gave Volkswagen
Expert pegs public cost of battery plant at C$19 billion
Canada ponied up C$13 billion to woo German auto giant
By Brian Platt and Gabrielle Coppola
May 31, 2023 at 8:15 AM PDT

Stellantis NV is likely to receive more in subsidies for a new electric-vehicle battery plant in Canada than the C$13 billion ($9.5 billion) Volkswagen AG extracted for a similar project, according to an expert who has crunched the numbers.

Stellantis and South Korean partner LG Energy Solution Ltd. announced the factory in Windsor, Ontario last year, but have halted construction while they negotiate more financial aid from Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s government. The companies are seeking the equivalent of what they would receive under the Inflation Reduction Act if they located the plant in the US.

That means the price tag to Canada for the plant may reach as much as C$19 billion over a decade, said Johns Hopkins University professor Bentley Allan — even larger than the package Canada signed to lure Volkswagen. ..

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...&sref=x4rjnz06

Quite the shitshow Justin seems to have unleashed.
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  #203  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 9:46 PM
Hackslack Hackslack is offline
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Sorry, dumb question, but… does that mean that, the total cost to the public of these 2 battery plants will be in excess of $30 billion?

Also, was it the carbon tax that was a driver of this massive public “investment”? Does anyone have any info on how much ghg emissions has been reduced by the carbon tax, or has it just been a complete failure considering the government is now spending tens of billions on these green projects, as well has putting policies in place to restrict the sale of ICE vehicles. With these policies and tens of billions of tax dollars spent on these green projects it seems the carbon tax has been a failure in its intent to steer the free market to make those tens of billion in investment, and the free market to limit how many ICE vehicles to sell.

Last edited by Hackslack; May 31, 2023 at 10:09 PM.
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  #204  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 10:03 PM
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Innsertnamehere Innsertnamehere is offline
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Originally Posted by Hackslack View Post
Sorry, dumb question, but… does that mean that, the total cost to the public of these 2 battery plants will be in excess of $30 billion?
it will depend a lot on how much they actually produce and if the US maintains it's insane subsidy for the entire period or not.

VW is a couple billion in plant subsidies than a massive amount of production subsidies - if they don't produce, they don't get the money.

And if the Republicans down south manage to negotiate out the EV subsidies at some point, which is honestly fairly likely, the subsidy drops as well.
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  #205  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by LightingGuy View Post
There are numerous reports of a coming Commercial Real Estate crash. Thoughts? It's a market I know very little about.
Which sector? Industrial remains extremely strong, like insanely strong.

Retail is still puttering along, it crashed long ago and likely isn't really going to fall further..

Office - yea - that's falling off a cliff.
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  #206  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 10:22 PM
LightingGuy LightingGuy is offline
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Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
Which sector? Industrial remains extremely strong, like insanely strong.

Retail is still puttering along, it crashed long ago and likely isn't really going to fall further..

Office - yea - that's falling off a cliff.
Office is what I meant.
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  #207  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 10:36 PM
whatnext whatnext is offline
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Originally Posted by LightingGuy View Post
There are numerous reports of a coming Commercial Real Estate crash. Thoughts? It's a market I know very little about.
According to some:

Billionaire Perot Warns of Real Estate Recession as Loans Dry Up
-Perot Jr Sees Recession for Commercial Real Estate Without Bank Lending
Unmute
ByS helly Hagan and Matthew Miller
May 31, 2023 at 12:02 PM PDT

Ross Perot Jr., whose family is one of the largest independent property developers in the country, warned of a looming real estate recession if banks don’t start lending again.

“If the industry can’t get a construction loan, real estate will have a recession,” Perot said in an interview on Bloomberg TV on Wednesday. “The key to commercial real estate today will be banking.”

Perot, 64, said it’s gotten so hard for firms to get construction loans, even for industrial buildings, that his company Hillwood is helping to finance other developers....


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...&sref=x4rjnz06
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  #208  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 10:53 PM
thewave46 thewave46 is offline
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Originally Posted by Hackslack View Post
Sorry, dumb question, but… does that mean that, the total cost to the public of these 2 battery plants will be in excess of $30 billion?
The Government of Canada will subsidize a portion of the cost of the batteries produced over a fixed period of time. In theory, this subsidy could be total upwards of $30 billion if the production reaches its theoretical maximum capacity. Now if the factories don't exist or produce, the subsidy is never paid.

From a free-market point-of-view, it's bollocks. Tell VW and Stellantis to pound sand, put their factories elsewhere; government can spend the money on other things, because the private sector shouldn't need government to help.

From a strategic point of view? That gets messy. If one looks at the history of this country - indeed, one of its nascent projects that resulted in Canada as we know it - and one sees similar concepts. The Canadian Pacific Railway was a free-market failure as initially conceived. What daft idiot would build a railway to the Prairies and onward to BC through muskeg of Northern Ontario and over the Rockies? Free-market economics says 'Build northwards through the United States', but strategic analysis says: 'A railway you don't control exclusively in your own territory means you are subject to the whims of the person who does'. Free-market failure initially, however, strategic success in the long run.

You can see this concept through the large hydro and nuclear projects completed in the 20th century in this country. Free markets says: 'Build massive coal plants instead, 'cause they're cheap', but the value of large-scale nuclear/hydro development was a dividend not clearly visible at that juncture. Strategic long-term victory versus free-market short-term loss.

Does the battery subsidy make sense strategically? Not if our largest trade partner wasn't pursuing the same strategy, because the larger automaking ecosystem could probably support something itself. The US chose a strategic path for reasons not really related to Canada. Is it the right path for us? Don't know that yet, but given that the automaking assembly operations are one of our largest net contributors to our exports, it's a big risk to ignore it.

In 2009, the free-market analysis says 'Let GM and Chrysler fail', but the when the 'free-market' defender (er, free market under their rules) steps up and bails out their companies, we're sure in a pickle. Do we play free-market or not? Risky game. Maybe the point would be moot today if Canada was on the glide path to Australia-level car industry, as those companies probably would just ignore Canada for production.
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  #209  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 11:35 PM
goodgrowth goodgrowth is offline
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Stellantis is somewhat of a questionable company to be betting public money on...

Some of those brands are not popular now...let alone when you think of the future of EV's

Everything is going to depend on RAM and JEEP EV's being commercially viable....

Maybe that's why they are screaming for subsidies..it's the only way to make it work.
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  #210  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 11:35 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by thewave46 View Post

In 2009, the free-market analysis says 'Let GM and Chrysler fail', but the when the 'free-market' defender (er, free market under their rules) steps up and bails out their companies, we're sure in a pickle. Do we play free-market or not? Risky game. Maybe the point would be moot today if Canada was on the glide path to Australia-level car industry, as those companies probably would just ignore Canada for production.
There is clearly not a significant link between battery production and assembly or Volkswagen never would have done this deal, they assemble nothing in Canada and don’t appear to have any plans to. A battery is a part, millions of parts move across the border every day.

Maybe there is a strategic reason for building batteries in Canada, but I haven’t heard a good case yet
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  #211  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 11:49 PM
thewave46 thewave46 is offline
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
There is clearly not a significant link between battery production and assembly or Volkswagen never would have done this deal, they assemble nothing in Canada and don’t appear to have any plans to. A battery is a part, millions of parts move across the border every day.

Maybe there is a strategic reason for building batteries in Canada, but I haven’t heard a good case yet
The strategic interest is this: We have a whole ecosystem of domestic second-tier companies dedicated to the automaking industry. They're not top-level companies like VW, but more akin to Germany's second-tier manufacturers that provide a lot of the guts behind their economy.

If those companies find themselves cut out of the next revolution in automaking because the know-how to battery manufacturing ended up elsewhere because of other countries' strategic choices, how long does Canada retain an advantage for automaking?
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  #212  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2023, 12:30 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by thewave46 View Post
The strategic interest is this: We have a whole ecosystem of domestic second-tier companies dedicated to the automaking industry. They're not top-level companies like VW, but more akin to Germany's second-tier manufacturers that provide a lot of the guts behind their economy.

If those companies find themselves cut out of the next revolution in automaking because the know-how to battery manufacturing ended up elsewhere because of other countries' strategic choices, how long does Canada retain an advantage for automaking?
How does Volkswagen making batteries here help these companies? Are they going to make sub-components for batteries? If that were the case wouldn’t it better to subsidize these companies to retool to battery components?
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  #213  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2023, 12:58 AM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
How does Volkswagen making batteries here help these companies? Are they going to make sub-components for batteries? If that were the case wouldn’t it better to subsidize these companies to retool to battery components?
Yes. If they need subsidies, they'll get them.
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  #214  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2023, 8:55 AM
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Canada has the fastest growing economy of the G7 for the first quarter of 2023



https://www.oecd.org/sdd/na/GDP-Growth-Q123.pdf
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  #215  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2023, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by goodgrowth View Post
Stellantis is somewhat of a questionable company to be betting public money on...

Some of those brands are not popular now...let alone when you think of the future of EV's

Everything is going to depend on RAM and JEEP EV's being commercially viable....

Maybe that's why they are screaming for subsidies..it's the only way to make it work.
This is a good point.

Even Volkswagen’s investment is based on them aggressively trying to grow their North American market share. Not a lot of Volkswagens sold in North America right now other than some Audis.. not enough to support a massive battery plant at least.

Both investments are predicated on relatively risky business strategies. Neither are slam dunks like a Ford EV plant or Toyota EV plant would have been.
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  #216  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2023, 12:40 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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The EV market is not at all like ICEV market. Volkswagen is substantially ahead of Toyota. Easily half a decade or more. The government is right to bet on VW. Stellantis is a more questionable investment. But these plants have value and if the OEM goes down, somebody will definitely pick them up and run them. The world is short batteries and EVs. The plants won't sit idle.
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  #217  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2023, 1:54 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Despite it being paradoxical at first sight, BOTH the statements "India is wealthier than Switzerland" and "Switzerland is wealthier than India" are correct at the same time.

Nite is one of the very few people on this forum who completely subscribes to the "India is currently a wealthier country than Switzerland" school of thought.

Arguments in favor of this view:

- India would have an easier time than Switzerland coming up with the budget needed to fund a given thing (Summer Olympics, Space Station, Aircraft Carrier, etc.)

- The collective personal wealth of all Indians combined is indeed (slightly) greater than the collective personal wealth of all the Swiss combined.


It's actually not THAT flawed a view: I can say with a straight face that "Montreal is a wealthier city than Westmount", if my point is that the former would have an easier time affording to buy 100 new electric buses than the latter.
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  #218  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2023, 1:57 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Case in point: India is the sixth wealthiest country, Switzerland is the fifteenth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_total_wealth
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  #219  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2023, 2:02 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Originally Posted by LightingGuy View Post
There are numerous reports of a coming Commercial Real Estate crash. Thoughts? It's a market I know very little about.
Brick and mortar retail is doing fine in cities that are doing okay (commercial rents have gone up pretty sharply here) but the office building market in any CBD that had an average pre-pandemic vacancy rate is not doing very well in the post-pandemic environment, yes -- as some degree of WFH is likely here to stay.
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  #220  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2023, 2:10 PM
LightingGuy LightingGuy is offline
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Originally Posted by Nite View Post
Canada has the fastest growing economy of the G7 for the first quarter of 2023



https://www.oecd.org/sdd/na/GDP-Growth-Q123.pdf
This is a bit misleading in my opinion. Canada's population growth is significantly higher than any of the other countries. Also the paper does not state whether or not these values are inflation-adjusted.

0.6% GDP growth vs ~0.75% population growth and 2% inflation over the same time frame. Our GDP per capita in real terms is likely negative.

https://betterdwelling.com/canada-ha...cted-to-erode/
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