A More Walkable Downtown Phoenix

[MiEncanto]

This is my first thread so apologies if I'm breaking rules.

What are your *realistic* ideas to make downtown more walkable? I've heard of making Roosevelt from Central to 7th St ped only, but that seems like a stretch and most the buildings are pretty far set back so I don't see it becoming a lot more like a true walking district.

Here's my crazy idea.

City of Phx buys the surface parking lot across from CityScape on SW corner of 1st Ave and Jefferson. It has long been hated. Reportedly the owner will not sell for a reasonable amount. The City should sack up and pay what it costs. Now the city can own a real downtown city square.

Close 1st Ave between Jefferson and the Footprint Center garage (so you can approach the garage from the South only). By closing this street, it opens up a lot more real estate for a true downtown walking zone that bleeds into Footprint's front courtyard area.

Then put out an RFQ to build a multiuse building that incorporates or blends the old Public Works building that CoP owns on SE corner of Central and Jefferson. If it has to be torn down, whatever, the point is whatever we build should allow for a walking district that uses some cool old Phoenix architecture. I'm thinking a large fountain and areas for weekend markets, extended patios for restaurants, and a lot of space to be used for events. It could be L shaped or even a square, I dunno.

Because the light rail sorta cordons off the area to the north, it might even make sense to make it more like a 3 sided quad open to the East with south facing buildings along Jefferson, though south facing is not good for sun purposes.

[TheSpud0]

Here are my ideas to try to make a more walkable downtown with very simple street closures, I know that's there other ways to make a good walkable area but this the best I could do.

sorry that they're pixelated.

3rd Street
https://imgur.com/a/it4bXDj


Adams
https://imgur.com/a/pgm2BHc


5th and 6th Street
https://imgur.com/a/OH0RTKI

[YourBuddy]

If they were going to do a pedestrian only street I would think the best street would be to close down 1st street from Filmore on the south to Roosevelt on the North. It has a bunch of proposed residential for the lots around it, a bunch of good entertainment and places to eat. The street itself isn’t very wide so it creates a nice feel for pedestrians. Most of the street is on street parking and not a lot leads to residential units currently. Would be perfect for more more on street dining. Leads right into Roosevelt Row, right next to public transit and main streets for cars.

[MiEncanto]

Originally Posted by TheSpud0

Here are my ideas to try to make a more walkable downtown with very simple street closures, I know that's there other ways to make a good walkable area but this the best I could do.

sorry that they're pixelated.

3rd Street
https://imgur.com/a/it4bXDj


Adams
https://imgur.com/a/pgm2BHc


5th and 6th Street
https://imgur.com/a/OH0RTKI

I think your best idea here is Adams. There's no garage entrance so you're not taking from anyone. That street has been terrible for a long time in terms of quality establishments and not a great entrance to downtown from the Convention Center downtown. But if it were activated as a walking area, it could really improve the area. The retail/restaurant is sufficiently close on the South side and on the North side the hotel side, there could be new stuff added to really activate it. There's already a lot of great trees.

Your idea on 3rd street is owned by the Church on both sides so maybe could great more green space but probably not doing much for downtown.

[30YearOldGrandpa]

Hey guys! Long long loooooong time browser, first time poster. Been here since 09 I believe but never felt inclined to post until now. I actually get to work on the fun pedestrian, parking, and transportation stuff for various agencies so I can chime in here a bit. Some talk amongst us seems to be that doing anything temporary long enough for “special” events is the easiest battle for any city. Political will is big for street closures, and often times they do not succeed for various reasons and the biggest seems to be that car traffic is still a priority in many cases. Think Adams Street Activation. Strategies like what San Diego has done with fifth avenue are more reasonable to try, and generally cheaper and less of a battle to fight. It’s one thing to close a street to car traffic and pedestrianize it by will alone, it’s another to create large physical barriers from the road to the point cars avoid it frequently and conducting the traffic volume/speed study a couple months down the line is the safest bet since that would eliminate any doubt to the need for vehicles to travel down that segment.

I’m my honest opinion, doing exactly what San Diego has done for fifth is how we should be approaching increased walkability. Adding outdoor patio sections so restaurants, bars, and other venues to rent out and use on the other side of the sidewalk, digging into the road is a win-win. There’s more seating, activity, and increased revenue for both the city and the business doing so this way. It can add some flare to the street scape and makes it more interesting overall. Plus it can add some much needed shade/areas to cool off where mist systems are not allowed typically due to code and can be cheaper than running trees (with cost of maintenance and irrigation being the largest culprit). I‘ve dreamed about adding these to areas where there’s a frontage road beside the light rail like 1st avenue between Van Buren and Adams. Of course, this idea would work better along Roosevelt first to sell the idea to the city. Any road with street parking would be the easiest to implement, since the city can always chop out the parking, and pedestrianization follows if there’s enough demand on the sidewalks for it.

[Obadno]

TREES TREES TREES TREES

Big leafy trees

I dont care about the water.

[PHXFlyer11]

There is zero foresight in this city. The new lightrail construction presented so many opportunities. But instead of installing some other seurfaces and trees in the huge area around Central and Washington they literally installed as much concrete as possible. It's god damn disgusting. Trees and grass/turf would've been so damn nice.

[phoenixwillrise]

Originally Posted by Obadno

TREES TREES TREES TREES

Big leafy trees

I dont care about the water.

Totally agree Obadno. Downtown should have an exemption for the water saving gig. Hance Park should be loaded with all types and kinds and if you have to provide a canopy of Date Palms to give shade to those types of trees to survive so be it. Every street should have curb then grass and tree landscape area including trees then sidewalk with plenty of open areas for trees and water elements and some intense fountains that you feel 10% degrees cooler just standing by them. Make the place livable.

[Obadno]

Yes it annoys me to no end that people focus on things like landscaping that ARE NOT THE WATER HOGs

Your lawn and trees are not using too much water. Almost all of the water problems can be attributed to agriculture and manufacturing processes yet people start tearing out trees and grass thinking they are helping when they are making the heat Island worse and not making a scratch in water usage difference.

People are very bad at scale

[YourBuddy]

Yep, the more trees, plants, green walls and shaded parks the better. I think it would be good to have xeriscaping along streets and other non functional areas. But we definitely need more vegetation. Municipal use accounts for 20% of the states water use, 70% of that is outdoors. It’s easy for people to blame green areas because they are typically the wealthier areas and they don’t really know about agriculture use in the southwest enough to have informed opinions. I feel like people are starting to catch on a little more about water use, but there is still a lot of agriculture propaganda out there still.

[PdX Farr]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Yes it annoys me to no end that people focus on things like landscaping that ARE NOT THE WATER HOGs

Your lawn and trees are not using too much water. Almost all of the water problems can be attributed to agriculture and manufacturing processes yet people start tearing out trees and grass thinking they are helping when they are making the heat Island worse and not making a scratch in water usage difference.

People are very bad at scale

Nah, corporations are just very good at spending absurd amounts of money to convince people its their own problem and not the corps.

[PHX31]

I also would prefer more trees and shade and anything to combat the urban heat island.

<specifically talking about the new light rail construction mentioned> However, keep in mind cities or government entities consider everything including on-going maintenance costs. More trees, plants, etc don't just require some water and water costs, it requires continual maintenance. A lot of time they don't want to have that responsibility or cost.

I have zero idea if this is the reason, or one of them, in any specific case, but it's definitely something to keep in mind. It feels and is a bit of "value engineering" which can be annoying.

[combusean]

That area around the arena needs more development, not less. Lack of buildings and trees are the reasons people avoid sidewalks, not lack of park land. There is already an abundance of plazas and not enough funding to work the parks we have like deck park. The Downtown Phoenix service district has the money for tree maintenance, they just never prioritized it in the past.

I'd do something about that ugly barren plaza in front of Footprint Center so it could be used on non-game days like adding a big shade structure. I doubt a permeable paver would work but anything to avoid 150F concrete would be great.

[Warren Peace]

In my opinion, one of the most significant changes to make downtown more walkable is to better address the homeless population and the various sidewalk harassers who engage with pedestrians about their special interests.

My wife doesn't feel safe walking around downtown because of the homeless people that will chat her up for money and make her feel vulnerable when she is walking alone. She knows the downside of rewarding that behavior but wishes she could help those who truly need it.

The sidewalk harassers are often working for a charity soliciting donations for causes in direct competition with the homeless. I would be more likely to give to these well dressed solicitors routinely stationed by Fry's and other downtown street corners if they cared more about the charity needs competing alongside them.

Solutions? There are no solutions. Just alternatives with different tradeoffs. It obviously costs money. Is permitting required to set up a table and harass pedestrians on sidewalks? If not, perhaps it should be. Part of the permit should be to require recording donations and committing x% of donations to go toward helping to fund a new downtown homeless shelter. Perhaps a downtown development tax applied to hotels could help fund it. Partner with downtown apartments to offer an easy method to contribute, such as an auto-pay option. Partner with downtown restaurants and bars to simply post a QR code that enables a quick and easy donation for a cause readily apparent just outside the doors.

An ideal homeless shelter would offer both an indoor air conditioned option, and some outdoor living space with army style tents. To live indoors, a resident must agree to help maintain the facility and stay sober. The intoxicated residents and those unwilling to maintain a clean environment stay in the tents. The warehouse district seems to have a lot of vacant real estate the city can buy. Paid employees would be various social workers looking for their first jobs out of college. Partner with ASU downtown for student worker jobs and internships that involve healthcare and social work.

There should also be a downtown ordinance that forbids sleeping on sidewalks and in public parks. Violators are transported to the homeless shelter. The shelter should have "drunk tank" where recently transported persons are not free to leave as a result of violating the ordinance. Everyone else is free to leave. But it creates a safe place where they will not be bothered. How would they otherwise be bothered? Let downtown residents use a payment app such as Venmo to report vagrancy and fund the cost of transportation as a donation. A more specifically designed phone app (advertised with QR codes throughout downtown) that enable geocoding and photo uploads along with donations would probably be better. This enables people to help at the decision point when they see a problem.

Using this approach, when people report vagrancy, they are not calling the cops, they are calling social workers. Let the social workers determine if escalating to law enforcement is necessary. They are not putting homeless people in jail, they are sending them to a homeless shelter, and they are likely funding the cost of transportation through a suggested donation.

[NativePHX]

Originally Posted by Warren Peace

In my opinion, one of the most significant changes to make downtown more walkable is to better address the homeless population and the various sidewalk harassers who engage with pedestrians about their special interests.

My wife doesn't feel safe walking around downtown because of the homeless people that will chat her up for money and make her feel vulnerable when she is walking alone. She knows the downside of rewarding that behavior but wishes she could help those who truly need it.

The sidewalk harassers are often working for a charity soliciting donations for causes in direct competition with the homeless. I would be more likely to give to these well dressed solicitors routinely stationed by Fry's and other downtown street corners if they cared more about the charity needs competing alongside them.

Solutions? There are no solutions. Just alternatives with different tradeoffs. It obviously costs money. Is permitting required to set up a table and harass pedestrians on sidewalks? If not, perhaps it should be. Part of the permit should be to require recording donations and committing x% of donations to go toward helping to fund a new downtown homeless shelter. Perhaps a downtown development tax applied to hotels could help fund it. Partner with downtown apartments to offer an easy method to contribute, such as an auto-pay option. Partner with downtown restaurants and bars to simply post a QR code that enables a quick and easy donation for a cause readily apparent just outside the doors.

An ideal homeless shelter would offer both an indoor air conditioned option, and some outdoor living space with army style tents. To live indoors, a resident must agree to help maintain the facility and stay sober. The intoxicated residents and those unwilling to maintain a clean environment stay in the tents. The warehouse district seems to have a lot of vacant real estate the city can buy. Paid employees would be various social workers looking for their first jobs out of college. Partner with ASU downtown for student worker jobs and internships that involve healthcare and social work.

There should also be a downtown ordinance that forbids sleeping on sidewalks and in public parks. Violators are transported to the homeless shelter. The shelter should have "drunk tank" where recently transported persons are not free to leave as a result of violating the ordinance. Everyone else is free to leave. But it creates a safe place where they will not be bothered. How would they otherwise be bothered? Let downtown residents use a payment app such as Venmo to report vagrancy and fund the cost of transportation as a donation. A more specifically designed phone app (advertised with QR codes throughout downtown) that enable geocoding and photo uploads along with donations would probably be better. This enables people to help at the decision point when they see a problem.

Using this approach, when people report vagrancy, they are not calling the cops, they are calling social workers. Let the social workers determine if escalating to law enforcement is necessary. They are not putting homeless people in jail, they are sending them to a homeless shelter, and they are likely funding the cost of transportation through a suggested donation.

Can't agree more. The drug addicts hobbling around, screaming, sleeping, defecating - it's disgusting in the most comprehensive definition of the word. It is not getting better and the city's recent proposal to purchase property to house them only indicates that this is going to be a permanent problem.

Pay the special downtown tax for the use of our parks, etc that can't even be used without the acid-like stinging to the eyes, ears, and nostrils.

[Obadno]

Again when it comes to the homelessness problem it’s almost entirely a function of drug abuse and the limitation on involuntary commitments by the state through various federal decisions and cases stemming back to the 1980’s.

People temporarily homeless due to economic reasons are not the problem of the endemic insane homelessness we see in urban cities today. The only way it will be solved is when states actually start a program to force these drug addicts and in some cases literally insane people into asylums/hospitals for their own good but that would require a total change to the way we’ve approached the problem for decades.

The people that fought to destroy the old asylum system did have reasons there were abuses but they threw the baby out wi the bath water and now we have much more widespread suffering of these people left to wallow in their misery because they don’t have the ability to get help for themselves even though it exists. It for sure is a sour pill to swallow especially since most people have a libertarian streak in their social politics that makes addressing the homeless issue extremely difficult politically.

[combusean]

The "downtown tax" doesn't go to parks. If you're in the core, this is what you're paying for.

https://dtphx.org/about/downtown-pho...ices-district/

[Code5]

Originally Posted by Obadno

TREES TREES TREES TREES

Big leafy trees

I dont care about the water.

I WISH. Big leafy trees that shade like a boss.
We need that EVERYWHERE.

[Edifice]

Originally Posted by 30YearOldGrandpa

Hey guys! Long long loooooong time browser, first time poster. Been here since 09 I believe but never felt inclined to post until now. I actually get to work on the fun pedestrian, parking, and transportation stuff for various agencies so I can chime in here a bit. Some talk amongst us seems to be that doing anything temporary long enough for “special” events is the easiest battle for any city. Political will is big for street closures, and often times they do not succeed for various reasons and the biggest seems to be that car traffic is still a priority in many cases. Think Adams Street Activation. Strategies like what San Diego has done with fifth avenue are more reasonable to try, and generally cheaper and less of a battle to fight. It’s one thing to close a street to car traffic and pedestrianize it by will alone, it’s another to create large physical barriers from the road to the point cars avoid it frequently and conducting the traffic volume/speed study a couple months down the line is the safest bet since that would eliminate any doubt to the need for vehicles to travel down that segment.

I’m my honest opinion, doing exactly what San Diego has done for fifth is how we should be approaching increased walkability. Adding outdoor patio sections so restaurants, bars, and other venues to rent out and use on the other side of the sidewalk, digging into the road is a win-win. There’s more seating, activity, and increased revenue for both the city and the business doing so this way. It can add some flare to the street scape and makes it more interesting overall. Plus it can add some much needed shade/areas to cool off where mist systems are not allowed typically due to code and can be cheaper than running trees (with cost of maintenance and irrigation being the largest culprit). I‘ve dreamed about adding these to areas where there’s a frontage road beside the light rail like 1st avenue between Van Buren and Adams. Of course, this idea would work better along Roosevelt first to sell the idea to the city. Any road with street parking would be the easiest to implement, since the city can always chop out the parking, and pedestrianization follows if there’s enough demand on the sidewalks for it.

Hey Gramps! I agree with your ideas about an Adams Street Activation! We don't have the charm of most downtown areas and this would really bring that to the table (no pun intended). My wife and I travel a lot in Europe and even small cities have really nice streetscapes with restaurants extending out into the road with canopies and umbrellas. It really is a great way to relax and enjoy the downtown experience. I hope that we can realize something like this during the cooler months.

[halicem]

Originally Posted by Edifice

Hey Gramps! I agree with your ideas about an Adams Street Activation! We don't have the charm of most downtown areas and this would really bring that to the table (no pun intended). My wife and I travel a lot in Europe and even small cities have really nice streetscapes with restaurants extending out into the road with canopies and umbrellas. It really is a great way to relax and enjoy the downtown experience. I hope that we can realize something like this during the cooler months.

I agree with Gramps too!

For me, I would prefer to eat-in to 2 lanes of both W Washington and W Jefferson between 7th ave & 1st ave. Those 2 E-W streets have way too much capacity and there's barely any traffic going through them on a regular basis. The only time it gets big traffic is when there's a show down at the old Comerica Theatre and even then it's only when the show ends. Not even Footprint Center events are enough to cause traffic. The majority of the backup are all heading south on 1st Ave and making the loop back to head east on Jefferson St.

I swear Adams St gets more traffic than both of those one-way roads combined. Give both roads just 1 lane of car travel, the light rail (and hopefully the extension) has already taken up 2 with the [planned] stations, reclaim 2 lanes on both streets, plant trees, and put outdoor establishments (full-on structures with A/C and patios).

Hopefully this makes the city sell the current PHX police HQ and a developer sees how attractive it is. Put a fancy hotel there to anchor that end. So now there's even more incentive to create a pedestrian breezeway, I'm making up that word, an intentionally cooled paseo from 7th ave to Cityscape. It passes along the Orpheum Theatre and the AZ Financial Theatre.

If this becomes a success, there'll be pressure to clean up the zone even more and extend the arrangement through to the capitol mall complex because again, those roads are way too wide.

BUT, the presence of the federal courthouse is probably what mucks this whole thing up... I'd assume they have minimum setback requirements and a single-lane road wouldn't fly.


Separate note, people do use the pedestrian-friendly infrastructure, like the buses, even in summer. Not to mention blokes like me who goes out for a stroll at 4pm and it's 113 outside lol:

Snippets of downtown buildings from L-R: Chase Tower, Hyatt Regency, Collier Center, The Adeline, The Ryan/Block 23, Renaissance, Hilton Garden Inn