Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[EPdesign]

Originally Posted by DanskeUtahn

Or just make it taller and then we can finally get our first real commie block and build 20 more just like it!!!
[IMG][/IMG]

This really made me laugh. Lol

[i-215]

Originally Posted by StevenF

Really like this video from Real Engineering. He also uses an older video shot of Salt Lake when City Creek was being built.

Thank you for sharing. I do wonder what the most "efficient height" (bottom of the U-curve) is for each region of the valley. I see a lot of 6-8 story going up around downtown SLC, so perhaps that is close to it. Elsewhere, I see a lot of 3+1 or 4+1 stick frame, too.

[asies1981]

More on the Broadway Apartments.

[Ironweed]

Originally Posted by StevenF

Really like this video from Real Engineering. He also uses an older video shot of Salt Lake when City Creek was being built.

• Video Link

This is quite compelling and educational. Large residential towers may not be in SLC's future, but hopefully more urban, walk-able, transit friendly designs are.

[delts145]

^^^
Excellent video, a lot of great info. Thanks for re-posting Ironweed. I hadn't caught it the first time around.

[airhero]

A couple additional multifamily projects submitted to planning today, but no elevation drawings, renderings, or descriptions:

Phase 3 of west station apartments on Redwood Road (phase 2 is just wrapping up).
NE corner of 400 E and 400 S (by Wadsworth Development).

The 400 E 400 S building would be the sixth on the two block section of 400 S between 300 E and 500 E including the planned Exchange buildings.

[airhero]

It seems the buildings along the 400 S corridor keep looking better with each subsequent development. Hopefully 400 E 400 S keeps up with that trend (though Wadsworth is a primarily suburban developer so I'm not getting my hopes up).

Nobody is asking for this, but in any case, in order of completion date, here's a short qualitative evaluation and grade for recent developments on 400 S:

1. Seasons on the Boulevard, 460 E 400 S: Horrible design, appalling finishes, sterile and ugly at street level. F
2. Encore Apartments, 489 E 400 S: Ugly design, horrible street presence. D-
3. Liberty BLVD, 734 E 400 S (almost completed, already occupied): Okay design, I personally like the rusted panels and the signage, street level restaurant on 400 S. It's probably Cowboy's best design so far, tho the phrase "Cowboy's best" is almost an insult. B-
4. 4th and 4th, NW corner of 400 E and 400 S intersection (nearing completion): Decent design, but plans at the street level a bit disappointing. C+
5. The Exchange building 1, 320 E 400 S (planning docs in for review): Nice design, tall for 400 S (9 stories), apparent finishes leave something to be desired for me personally, great looking street level retail spaces on all sides. B+
6. The Exchange building 2, 340 E 400 S (planning docs in for review): Based on what I'm seeing of their plans, great design, great mix of uses with residential, office, and retail somehow packed into this seemingly small building. I love it. A

Really hope the exchange gets built. We haven't heard anything about it since January.

[Marvland]

Sure you all saw this but FACEBOOK IS BUILDING a 1 million sf data center in Eagle Mountain. This is a way better location than consuming infill in SL county. Silicon Slopes is on a historic roll.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Marvland

Sure you all saw this but FACEBOOK IS BUILDING a 1 million sf data center in Eagle Mountain. This is a way better location than consuming infill in SL county. Silicon Slopes is on a historic roll.

You guys gave $150M in tax breaks for a data center that will have ~100 employees? That seems like a massive subsidy- even in this day and age.

[DanskeUtahn]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

You guys gave $150M in tax breaks for a data center that will have ~100 employees? That seems like a massive subsidy- even in this day and age.

I think that it has something to do with the NSA datacenter being so close and collecting data from the concentrated data centers in the area.

[Makid]

Facebook is also building approximately $100 Million in infrastructure (roads and utilities) to support the data center, before even counting money spent on the data center itself.

Overall, the tax breaks are off the improved taxable land value. Currently, it is $66 a year. Even after the tax breaks, the taxing bodies will share between $400,000 and $500,000 a year.

$100 Million in free infrastructure + $400K to $500K annually (after adjusting for the tax breaks) for what is currently $66 annually. That is a win. At full build out it goes up to around $800K annually for the taxing bodies to split.

Definitely a better deal down in EM then anywhere in the SL Valley. Land values are higher and infrastructure is mostly in place. West Jordan would have lost tax revenue on the deal they were trying to get with Facebook.

[ryerop]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

You guys gave $150M in tax breaks for a data center that will have ~100 employees? That seems like a massive subsidy- even in this day and age.

Something to keep in mind is they are building a data center on ground that has a mink farm on one side (which I believe is supposed to be a pretty smelly operation), and I believe it was a wastewater treatment plant on the other side, also smelly. That being said to start collecting that much in taxes from land that really probably wouldn't have had many other potential interested parties is a pretty sweet deal the way I see it. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my though on why it's a win win

[i-215]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

You guys gave $150M in tax breaks for a data center that will have ~100 employees? That seems like a massive subsidy- even in this day and age.

That's how I feel. I've always been highly skeptical of the "(number of) jobs will be created" promise that employers use to justify getting a tax break.

But $150M is a juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge tax break. And for 100 employees?

That's $1.5M per employee. The region would be better off just cutting those 100 people a check and let them start small businesses. Would generate more tax revenue over the long haul than some lame data center.

Originally Posted by Makid

$100 Million in free infrastructure + $400K to $500K annually (after adjusting for the tax breaks) for what is currently $66 annually. That is a win.

I suppose. That being said, it will take 300 years to recoup the $150M tax break (when a collection rate of $500k per year).

How much of this free infrastructure will be useful to the community at large? Are they running commuter rail out there or something? (I suspect most of this $100M investment will be self-serving, primarily).

[ctobsl]

Does anyone have information on construction of apartment building on 100 South, between 400 East & 500 East right next to nursing home?

[Makid]

Originally Posted by i-215

That's how I feel. I've always been highly skeptical of the "(number of) jobs will be created" promise that employers use to justify getting a tax break.

But $150M is a juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge tax break. And for 100 employees?

That's $1.5M per employee. The region would be better off just cutting those 100 people a check and let them start small businesses. Would generate more tax revenue over the long haul than some lame data center.



I suppose. That being said, it will take 300 years to recoup the $150M tax break (when a collection rate of $500k per year).

How much of this free infrastructure will be useful to the community at large? Are they running commuter rail out there or something? (I suspect most of this $100M investment will be self-serving, primarily).

Remember though, it is a post performance tax break, so Facebook has to meet minimum thresholds before they can qualify for the breaks.

The infrastructure they will be building will include a new road, upgrading an existing road, new power lines, a power sub-station and water lines. The water lines are supposed to include access points for future growth by both the City and future expansion by other commercial/industrial interests.

Because of Facebook paying for the infrastructure, they will be eligible for some tax rebates during construction of phase 1. They can never receive more back then they would pay. Additionally, they can only receive up to 60% back each year. That 60% back is also 60% of the increase over current value. So it is in their interest to increase the value of the land as high as possible. 40% of the increase will be split with the taxing bodies. The State has agreed to give their share back to Facebook to help with the infrastructure costs. I don't know the length of time for the States deferment on their share but it is not indefinite. I do know that it was done as a signal to help attract other companies as a sign of possible deals for expansions or locating to the state if there are large construction costs.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by i-215

That's how I feel. I've always been highly skeptical of the "(number of) jobs will be created" promise that employers use to justify getting a tax break.

But $150M is a juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge tax break. And for 100 employees?

That's $1.5M per employee. The region would be better off just cutting those 100 people a check and let them start small businesses. Would generate more tax revenue over the long haul than some lame data center.

How do you figure? A tax break literally costs the county and other taxing entities nothing. They just bring in fewer taxes on that land then they otherwise would have (but probably wouldn't have with any other development because of the nearby smelly treatment plant). It doesn't actually take any existing money out of county coffers.
People seem to think taxable entities are actually spending that money to provide the tax break. They're not.

[airhero]

Originally Posted by ctobsl

Does anyone have information on construction of apartment building on 100 South, between 400 East & 500 East right next to nursing home?

https://www.buildingsaltlake.com/new...-central-city/

[Marvland]

Recouping means recovering money that has been spent. There has been no money spent by public agencies. The traffic and community impact will be minimal and the construction volume and build economics are impressive. The data and utility trunk lines will enable more and more data centers in Cedar Valley, which is the perfect location for this. Bring it on.

[Always Sunny in SLC]

Keep in mind this is how sprawl is enabled. Many millions in utilities being put in by Facebook with enable developments to sprout up for much lower costs than developers would have otherwise spent. This is an example of how business is used to subsidize sprawl. Back in, I believe, 2008 the legislature passed a law that reallocated sales tax money collected municipalities and spread it more evenly among the cities. The reason was bedroom communities, exurbs and cities that otherwise zone out all but a little commercial were complaining that they didn't have enough revenue to run their cities. So the state took money from cities that had larger sales tax bases and sent it to ones that had little to none.

If we instead expected cities to fund themselves (at least all the core services) by the property taxes they collect and not rely on businesses subsidizing their towns through the sales tax, we would slow sprawl significantly. It would more clearly illustrate to people how expensive single family development is and how much it needs that sales tax money to exist. It would put much more pressure to infill than jumping to the fringes of our cities and counties.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Stenar

How do you figure? A tax break literally costs the county and other taxing entities nothing. They just bring in fewer taxes on that land then they otherwise would have (but probably wouldn't have with any other development because of the nearby smelly treatment plant). It doesn't actually take any existing money out of county coffers.
People seem to think taxable entities are actually spending that money to provide the tax break. They're not.

Originally Posted by Marvland

Recouping means recovering money that has been spent. There has been no money spent by public agencies. The traffic and community impact will be minimal and the construction volume and build economics are impressive. The data and utility trunk lines will enable more and more data centers in Cedar Valley, which is the perfect location for this. Bring it on.

You two are both wrong and i-15 is right. Just because there's no apparent spending of money with a tax break doesn't mean money isn't being spent. What would be fair to say is that a tax break denies public coffers taxable income over the long run -- in other words, any individual tax break seems like a good idea because of the apparent short-term benefits, but as you start amassing tax breaks over time in order to lure businesses you might find that you're unable to tax your most economically productive entities, making it significantly harder to keep investing and reinvesting in your physical plant ... Do this enough times and with enough businesses and you might find your city structurally insolvent in, oh if I had to guess ... a generation or so in the future.