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  #201  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2010, 1:59 PM
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Jacksonville's freeways are far, far more impressive (good or bad, depending on your perspective), relatively speaking, than its skyline is. And I have been there...some tall structures, but utterly lacking density. Having also been to Winnipeg and Edmonton, the two latter are far more impressive skylinewise than Jacksonville. With or without the apartment towers (why this would be an issue is beyond me, but maybe I am thinking outside of the box )
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  #202  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2010, 2:19 PM
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I think the freeways in Jacksonville are pretty crappy, and I also think both Edmonton and Winnipeg have a very good reason for being in this thread. But I'm neither much of a skyline enthusiast nor a freeway enthusiast, so far be it for me to question your taste. Though I'm sure others would.
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  #203  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2010, 3:01 PM
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  #204  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2010, 4:04 PM
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forumers here at SSP like to bash São Paulo´s skyline



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  #205  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2010, 7:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
Having also been to Winnipeg and Edmonton, the two latter are far more impressive skylinewise than Jacksonville.
Yeah, that's pretty much been established. Calling them counterpart cities based solely on similar populations was the issue.

A metro of 1 million ain't no major city in the USA; whereas in Canada, a metro of 1 million is among the biggest the nation has to offer. All the commercial, governmental, educational, etc. institutions go with that. Skylines reflect this fact.
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  #206  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2010, 8:26 PM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
i still dont know if i buy this argument...canadian cities, although fewer in number, still service similar populations....winnipeg is indeed the only city in manitoba, but manitoba is the size of texas with only 1.2 million people...its not like it is drawing from a vast population......it may have 80% of the province's population, but that is still a small number compared to jacksonville....it isnt a greater concentration of people, only a higher percentage of the regional population.

i would think that american cities would have even a greater advantage, because many of them have large population bases around them to draw from....canadian cities like calgary, edmonton and winnipeg pretty much stop dead once you get to the outskirts.....i dont see the advantage of being one city in the middle of nowhere as opposed to being set within other cities nearby.....it is still the same commerce and population that the city is servicing.

canadian cities are more dense and more centralized than their american counterparts, at almost every scale....this isnt because they are drawing commerce from larger areas, its has to do with social and cultural factors....
I think that puts to rest the notion of proportional/comparative population. Besides, using the proportional idea means each city will have to be measured by it's locale and the surrounding area relative to the state/province/country population which would turn into a huge pissing contest. While obviously not perfect, comparing the skylines of similar-sized metro populations regardless of the location or country, makes this thread work. While your idea may be a bit more accurate pj, it is unworkable.
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Last edited by Phil McAvity; Feb 12, 2010 at 5:13 AM.
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  #207  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2010, 8:47 PM
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Originally Posted by TAZ4ate0 View Post
Don, pics 3 and 4 (and even #1 after reviewing), are waaaayyy outdated. Missing are several of the new towers and projects, done or underway in the past 3 years. In the last pic (#4), the biggest glaring flaw as to what Phoenix looks like today, doesn't show the light rail line running down Central Ave. I know you have better and newer pics. Why not show those?


I like the Phoenix skyline always have check out Austin's skyline

from wikipedia
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  #208  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2010, 9:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Phil McAvity View Post
I'd think that puts to rest the notion of proportional/comparative population. Besides, using the proportional idea means each city will have to be measured by it's locale and the surrounding area relative to the state/province/country population which would turn into a huge pissing contest. While obviously not perfect, comparing the skylines of similar-sized metro populations regardless of the location or country, makes this thread work. While your idea may be a bit more accurate pj, it is unworkable.
That post does not put it to rest... if anything, it proves the need to understand what the notion of a what counterpart city actually is. He specifically states that those Canadian cities contain higher percentages of the regional populations... bingo! Also, he says that "it is still the same commerce and population that the city is servicing"... wrong! A city such as Jacksonville does not serve the same commerce and population percentage that the mentioned Canadian cities do. The concentration is much, much higher in those Canadian cities and they serve as much larger cities in context than a place like Jacksonville does. It would be much more appropriate to compare a a city like Calgary with a city like Atlanta or even a larger American city. That is a more valid comparison. It's just like the Allentown-Winnipeg comparison... they have basically the same metro populations, but does Allentown really serve as the hub for the same population and commerce that Winnipeg does in comparison? Does Allentown serve as one of the USA's big cities, like Winnipeg does in Canada? Hell no, most of the Allentown region is served by Philadelphia or even NYC. Same as Atlanta serves as the large regional hub in Jacksonville's area of the country.. and some of the commerce in the area is also served by Tampa, Orlando, Savannah... the list goes on.

It shouldn't be a "pissing contest" though. It's fine to say that Calgary or Edmonton or Winnipeg have more impressive skylines than Jacksonville. I think most would agree with that. But given all that has been belabored about valid comparisons, we shouldn't expect a city with lower status in the USA, like Jacksonville, to have a terribly impressive skyline. I know what you're saying, it may be too deep for this thread's purposes.

So, I guess places like Allentown, PA, Columbia, SC, Knoxville, TN, Greensboro, NC, Springfield, MA, Fresno, CA, Worcester, MA, etc., etc., etc. now have the same status nationally as those Canadian cities do... seeing as they have similar populations.

Last edited by pj3000; Feb 12, 2010 at 1:00 AM.
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  #209  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2010, 3:33 AM
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i wont belabour the point but i really dont get your argument....

why would it matter what rank a city is in its country if one country is 10 times bigger than the other?....what matters is the population it serves....a city like winnipeg may be a hub for a much larger geographical area than allentown or jacksonville, but most of that area is arctic tundra.....you would have to draw a 250 mile radius around winnipeg borrowing people from saskatchewan and ontario, to get the 1.3 million people that the jacksonville metro has....just to put that in perspective, a 250 mile radius around jacksonville would include 3/4 of florida and georgia, 1/2 of south carolina and a chunk of alabama.

yes, winnipeg is a larger city in canada than jacksonville is in the US, but why would that create any difference in commerce?...it takes total population to create commerce, not percent of regional population.....last time i checked 70% of 1.2 million isnt as many people as 100% of 1.3 million.

the 1.3 million people liviing in jacksonville still go to work there every day...there are more than 100 000 university students there....it might not serve a big area but it serves at least as many people as comparable canadian cities do and thats all that matters....

jacksonville's GDP is $50 billion.
winnipeg's GDP is $30 billion



all that being said, allentown sure does have a lame downtown

Last edited by trueviking; Feb 12, 2010 at 3:56 AM.
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  #210  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2010, 4:01 AM
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nicely researched.
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  #211  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2010, 5:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamario View Post
This picture is a picture of midtown Phoenix and not its downtown. I think that the midtown looks nice in phoenix but I do agree that downtown is very small compared to cities of the same size such as Philadelphia, Dallas, and Houston. I shake my head in shame everytime I have to go downtown for anything because there's nothing going on in Central Phoenix.

I have never been to Phoenix so it would be kinda of hard to be able to comment too much on it, but one thing that deserves to be mentioned that C@teract Soulj@h kinda of hinted at was the rate that some of these cities have grown. For instance, since 1950, Phoenix has grown from a meager 105,000 to approximately 1.6 million people in just the city alone. Which means there was very little to speak of as far as a traditional downtown is concerned such as the cities in the midwest and out east. At the fast rate Phoenix was (and still is) growing, very little attention was paid to creating an urban center and giving it a suburban like feel once the highrises started to go up. Hopefully in the last few years more has been done to change that down there. I hope to make it down there someday.

Here's a picture that was taken by Don B. that shows a couple of the older buildings prior to 1950 in the foreground.

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  #212  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2010, 6:53 AM
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Here's an idea....

The notion that there's a certain size for a skyline for a certain population number could be.... wrong.

There are metro areas of over 1 million people with no skyline at all, and on the flip side, there are metro areas of a fraction of that population which have pleasing skylines.

Case closed. Skylines are about clusters of buildings of certain heights. Population is loosely connected.
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  #213  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2010, 6:59 AM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
why would it matter what rank a city is in its country if one country is 10 times bigger than the other?
Because if one country is 10 times larger, then the playing field is not level. A city's rank in its country, or even region, not simply its population number, is a pretty good indicator of its influence in that country/region, and as a result, its level of commerce, etc... and thus, its skyline. It's the proverbial apples to oranges comparison when cities in different nations serve different purposes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
....what matters is the population it serves....a city like winnipeg may be a hub for a much larger geographical area than allentown or jacksonville, but most of that area is arctic tundra.....you would have to draw a 250 mile radius around winnipeg borrowing people from saskatchewan and ontario, to get the 1.3 million people that the jacksonville metro has....just to put that in perspective, a 250 mile radius around jacksonville would include 3/4 of florida and georgia, 1/2 of south carolina and a chunk of alabama.
Exactly. That just shows that a city like Winnipeg is the sole hub for an entire large region. Within that radius from Jacksonville you have Atlanta, Orlando, Tampa-St. Petersburg, Savannah, Charleston, numerous mid-sized Florida cities, and even it stretches down to the northern part of the South Florida metro area. Each of these serves as hubs for commerce in the same sized region which a place like Winnipeg serves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
yes, winnipeg is a larger city in canada than jacksonville is in the US, but why would that create any difference in commerce?...it takes total population to create commerce, not percent of regional population.....last time i checked 70% of 1.2 million isnt as many people as 100% of 1.3 million.

the 1.3 million people liviing in jacksonville still go to work there every day...there are more than 100 000 university students there....it might not serve a big area but it serves at least as many people as comparable canadian cities do and thats all that matters....
how would it not create a difference in commerce when one city (Winnipeg in this case) is the only game in town? Everything is more dispersed among numerous other cities in the region Jacksonville occupies. Also, I believe you are way off in your estimation that there are "more than 100 000 university students there"... no way. It may serve the same amount of people, but a city like Jacksonville definitely does not serve them in the same way. A city like Winnipeg functions as a larger city than a city like Jacksonville does. Jacksonville is only one example of this in the US. It just happens to be the one that the original comparison was made... and it was made with Calgary, by the way... which serves as an even more major city in Canada than Jacksonville does in the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
jacksonville's GDP is $50 billion.
winnipeg's GDP is $30 billion
Well, if those are the numbers, they are actually surprising considering Jacksonville's metro size being almost two times larger... there should actually be a greater difference in Jax favor if proportional levels of commerce were the same... but they are not.
GDP figures just go to show that Winnipeg's standing nationally is higher, at over 2% of Canada's total GDP. Jacksonville accounts for just over .3%. That's point 3 %. Also, Winnipeg accounts for nearly 70% of Manitoba's GDP!!... not even close for Jacksonville in Florida, much less for its standing the SE region of the US (Atlanta - $270B, Tampa - $112B, Orlando - $105B).

Winnipeg is simply a greater center of commerce for Canada than Jacksonville is for the US... that's gonna bestow a bigger skyline.

But the original comparison was with Calgary... well, let's not even get into that because if Winnipeg ranks as it does, it can be understood how Calgary will rank considering that it is among the top 3 economies in Canada now.

It's an interesting topic, to be sure... and one that does not go unnoticed in market research.

Last edited by pj3000; Feb 12, 2010 at 9:13 AM.
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  #214  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2010, 7:46 AM
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Manitoba's GDP is less than Jacksonville's GDP.
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  #215  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2010, 7:51 AM
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Therefor it has a worse skyline?
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  #216  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2010, 7:55 AM
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No. But Winnipeg's skyline isn't bigger because "it has more of the economy". Its economy is smaller. We just build more highrises in Canada than in the US. The buildings might not be as tall, but there are more of them and there is no hideous Modis Tower.

I think the tacky PoMo buildings in Jacksonville hurt its skyline. Winnipeg's skyline might be boxy, but it has a great silhouette, and its PoMo building is one of the genre's best examples.


©Creswin properties


Winnipeg in the early 1950s by 1ajs.
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  #217  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2010, 8:05 AM
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Skyline talk is fun.

In two posts I got you from talking about GDP to size to beauty, three very different things. Topic finally back on track! Now for more popcorn...
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  #218  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2010, 8:09 AM
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I guess the idea that many things factor into a city's skyline can be easily lost on some, especially coming from a country that tries to squeeze things into one of two extremes as often as the United States does.

Best and worst is subjected. There is no such thing as "best skyline" or "worst skyline". It is impossible to determine.
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  #219  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2010, 8:11 AM
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Which is exactly why this thread is so hilarious!
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  #220  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2010, 8:31 AM
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How about Albuquerque metro pop 845,913
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