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  #3201  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2008, 10:39 PM
honte honte is offline
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Originally Posted by pilsenarch View Post
^Look, Honte....yours and Nowhereman's rhetoric is getting a little out of control. I have designed city blocks in downtown Chicago, it is absurd to be accusing me of not understanding architecture and how it gets built. I would suggest we refrain from the personal attacks.

As far as whether your consider it a 'landmark' or not, I'm not sure what readers are meant to assume from your comments otherwise (particularly considering your byline says exactly that).
Hmmm, nothing I have said was intended as a personal attack. Nor was anything intended to challenge your qualifications. If you would kindly quote the passage, I will consider rephrasing.
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  #3202  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2008, 10:47 PM
pilsenarch pilsenarch is offline
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Originally Posted by honte View Post
Hmmm, nothing I have said was intended as a personal attack. Nor was anything intended to challenge your qualifications. If you would kindly quote the passage, I will consider rephrasing.
Ok, my mistake....I should have directed that only at Nowhereman....

Having said that, let me make sure I understand your position: The proposed CCM will either be so invisible that no one is going to attend, or, it will indeed destroy the park? and, no architect, no matter how talented, could possibly acheive anything but one or the other outcome?
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  #3203  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2008, 11:42 PM
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From Kamin's blog:

Children's Museum gets ready to play tough
April 6, 2008

The Chicago Children's Museum is rolling out the heavy artillery in its controversial bid to move to Grant Park.....Monday morning press conference.....speakers include Lois Wille, the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, former Chicago Tribune editorial page editor and author of the book, "Forever Open, Clear, and Free: The Struggle for Chicago's Lakefront." Also speaking: the Rev. Dr. Michael Pfleger, pastor of St. Sabina's church.....

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune....ens-mus-1.html
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  #3204  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2008, 11:45 PM
honte honte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pilsenarch View Post
Having said that, let me make sure I understand your position: The proposed CCM will either be so invisible that no one is going to attend, or, it will indeed destroy the park? and, no architect, no matter how talented, could possibly acheive anything but one or the other outcome?
Well, it comes down to POV concerning what "destroy the park" means. To me, that means violate the legal precedents, so yes, I would generally agree with your summary.

Of course, there is a counterexample to every situation. You would have to get very, very lucky.

From my perspective, let me just summarize what I've been trying to say all along, and that will hopefully be the end of my comments on this topic for a while:

1. The proposal violates laws governing the use of Grant Park.
2. The proposal seeks to rebuild something that is already quite nice, in one the most improved areas of the city. By locating it here, its impact is weakened and an opportunity is lost. Even if Daley Bicentennial Plaza were a tar pit, with the presence of other recent improvements nearby such as Millennium Park, you cannot argue that this is an especially useful improvement from an urban planning perspective.
3. The surrounding community was not aware of this proposal initially until the wheels were set in motion, and overwhelmingly objects to its insertion in the park.
4. All of the City's leading preservation groups have come out against this proposal. Other community groups citywide have also spoken against this. Newspapers have written editorials against it.
5. The Children's Museum has existed quite prosperously at Navy Pier for many years and there is no indication that without this very site, they will fail. In fact, they might very well be served equally well if not better in another location.
6. The setting of Grant Park is imperiled by continued taxation of its resources (meaning that uses being placed in the park are not park-like in nature and adequate provisions for such have not been made), which in turn sets at risk the very intention of this park and the function it is supposed to serve for all residents. Current developments have ignored the initial master plan of Grant Park and have actually counteracted any effort to bring the park to a fully executed state.

Given the above conditions, from my point of view, this is a situation far larger than any practice, and I believe that no architecture firm could surmount these obstacles to create a winning design. What is winning design? I believe you and I have different opinions of that.

Also, I forgot to mention earlier in response to your question about locations for the museum: I believe an air rights development over the IC tracks next to the Museum Campus would be possibly the ultimate location for the museum. I've been arguing that since day one. This would give them visibility, a direct relationship to one of the world's premier museum collections, and would offer tangible benefits for all of Chicago (by extending the park system southward). It also would help energize the South Loop by giving it a cultural institution. Transit is currently lacking, but proposals active now directly to the south of this area could change that very quickly. Besides, transit doesn't seem high on their priority list. Parking in the area is abundant, especially when Soldier Field is not in use. Visiblity is huge. And, K+S could do what they do best - eg build a building, not a bunker.
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Last edited by honte; Apr 6, 2008 at 11:50 PM. Reason: typo
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  #3205  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2008, 12:04 AM
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All something of a tempest in a teapot, this hullabaloo over the CCM proposal, given that some adjoining property owners have already signaled their intent to trigger the Ward prohibitions. Doesn't matter how good the design, how noble the museum, how beneficial for Chicago, how much support Daley and the city lend, how many entitled speakers rally to the plan; conversely, doesn't matter if Reilly opposes the Grant Park site, how many preservation groups oppose it, how many signatures they collect. None of this matters to the courts and to the outcome. What matters is whether or not the adjacent property owners sue.

These property owners have real power here, folks. This isn't some legalistic hogwash. Their power here trumps Daley's.

Of course, the courts can determine that the CCM isn't a building. But that is for the courts to decide. Not Friends of Grant Park, not Reilly, not the museum.

Last edited by wrab; Apr 7, 2008 at 12:21 AM.
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  #3206  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2008, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by VivaLFuego View Post
all the Ward and 1838-plat mumbojumbo seem very irrelevant for this particular case.
Yeah, and that 1791 Bill of Rights gobbledygook can't possibly be relevant to the modern world.

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Something about that particular weasel-lawyer makes my skin crawl even more than his neighbor Phony Phioretti.
To the point of irrationality, it seems. What makes you think Reilly is even a lawyer? He was a political strategist and corporate public affairs executive before running against Natarus. Have you ever actually read his reasons for rejecting a Grant Park location? They are the sort of reasoned and principled stands, based on research and reflection, that we seldom see from elected officials.
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  #3207  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2008, 12:12 AM
pilsenarch pilsenarch is offline
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^OK...Honte, nothing new there except for the suggested site....none of the above directly relates to the actual proposal and includes many facts that are much in doubt (particularly with regard to support or opposition)....the South Loop site is intriguing but would not have the accessibility and the Millennium exposure....

The legal arguments are all being made a little naively....the entire portion of Grant Park north of Monroe has been built on ABOVE grade as it relates to Michigan Avenue years ago when they built the garage and simply filled dirt on top....I'm not sure any court is going to accept the argument that a million square foot of garage with all of the ancillary 'above grade' structures necessary to make it work is somehow more appropriate for a park then the introduction of a few skylights....(once again, refer to the actual drawings)...all of the arguments against the CCM appear to put everything in black and white terms: no structures means no structures, allow this, and high-rises and Chili's will be locating next to Bunkingham fountain, etc. etc. If your concerned about ‘overtaxing’ the park, you should do all you can to eliminate the festivals, and stop worrying about what a bunch of 8-year-olds are doing up at Randolph.

The actual reality is that we live in a very gray world - one that we all know sometimes bends to the loudest voices. Once again, I would suggest all of you opposed to the CCM lobby your own alderman and definitely vote Daley out of office next chance you get.

Meanwhile, I think the system is working exactly as it should. Perfect? no, but it is reality.
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  #3208  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2008, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pilsenarch View Post
.....The legal arguments are all being made a little naively....the entire portion of Grant Park north of Monroe has been built on ABOVE grade as it relates to Michigan Avenue years ago when they built the garage and simply filled dirt on top.....
The equation changes once the cranes are up, assuming that no-one has already filed suit. But I'm not arguing for or against here. This is just how the enforcement mechanism works, at least as I understand the case law that Mr. Downtown has linked to on page 159.

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Originally Posted by pilsenarch View Post
.....(A)ll of the arguments against the CCM appear to put everything in black and white terms: no structures means no structures.....
That would be the crux - is the K&S CCM more like an underground parking garage, or more like the Field Museum?

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Originally Posted by pilsenarch View Post
The actual reality is that we live in a very gray world - one that we all know sometimes bends to the loudest voices.....
Indeed, and I'm sure that CCM will make some very good arguments, though some situations are more open-and-shut than others. But, yes, the Chicago Way includes many little persuasions, and I don't mean to contest their efficacy.

Last edited by wrab; Apr 7, 2008 at 1:20 AM.
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  #3209  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2008, 12:59 AM
pilsenarch pilsenarch is offline
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wrabbit: just thought you deserved some appreciation for your excellent, clarifying posts....
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  #3210  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2008, 1:01 AM
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^ Thanks, but credit there should really go to Mr. Downtown.
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  #3211  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2008, 1:11 AM
pilsenarch pilsenarch is offline
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^well, Mr. D is a priceless resource for historic references and such, but it is insights that a court might be interested as to whether the CCM proposal is more like the existing garage or more like the Field that is particularly valuable....
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  #3212  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2008, 1:16 AM
honte honte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pilsenarch View Post
^OK...Honte, nothing new there except for the suggested site....
Right, hence the term "summary" that I used. I was trying to explain why K+S face an entirely uphill battle in making a winning building.

Concerning the "actual proposal," I really don't care about the "proposal" as it is defined by line drawings and renders in light of my points above. If the facts leading up to a site selection and political environment are not a part of the "proposal," then what is? "Oh, we robbed this land from the Natives but forget about that - look what a really great shopping mall we built here." "Oh, sure, I painted over a Picasso poster, but look how great my work of art is." You can never separate art, or any act for that matter, from its origins, especially in just evaluation. You can take it out of context and take a look, but all you get is a partial assessment.
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  #3213  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2008, 1:20 AM
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Not sure who's being naïve about legal research and precedent.

The Grant Park underground parking garage was approved by the state supreme court in 1952. "as to that portion of the garage proposed to be built below the surface of the park, the construction will not violate the restrictions of the dedications." Michigan Boulevard Bldg. Co. v. Chicago Park Dist., 412 Ill. 350.

For the Harris Theater, Jack Guthman went and got the exact same permission slips that had been used for the Art Institute. A friendly lawsuit (the Boaz case) was arranged to prove that Randolph Street property owners didn't have any similar rights. All this is recounted in Tim Guilfoyle's book Millennium Park.

For the Pritzker Pavilion, much was made of the fact that the "sculptures" didn't "enclose space." That argument can't be used for CCM's "skylights."
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  #3214  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2008, 1:27 AM
pilsenarch pilsenarch is offline
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^well Honte, that's an excellent point to end on....it's not about the architectural or planning proposal, (line drawings and 'renders') but about the politics....(Daley Bi = Picasso???)

so, lobby your alderman, it's your best hope.....

Last edited by pilsenarch; Apr 7, 2008 at 1:38 AM.
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  #3215  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2008, 1:31 AM
pilsenarch pilsenarch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Downtown View Post
The Grant Park underground parking garage was approved by the state supreme court in 1952. "as to that portion of the garage proposed to be built below the surface of the park, the construction will not violate the restrictions of the dedications." Michigan Boulevard Bldg. Co. v. Chicago Park Dist., 412 Ill. 350.
that's interesting....but the reality is that the mass majority of the garage was NOT built 'underground' but rather above the existing grade....the 'ground' was raised to cover the garage....

a court would most likely entertain this point due to the fact that it directly effects the view/air corridor issues in relationship to Michigan Avenue.....precedence is indeed important....

Edit: the reference to naivete is the assumption that anyone can determine a court decision ahead of time in this political world...

Last edited by pilsenarch; Apr 7, 2008 at 1:42 AM.
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  #3216  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2008, 2:01 AM
Nowhereman1280 Nowhereman1280 is offline
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Originally Posted by pilsenarch View Post
Ok, my mistake....I should have directed that only at Nowhereman....
Like honte said, quote where I made an attack against you and I will take it back since I did not intend to attack you. I only use caps and italics to emphasize points, not to demean you.

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Originally Posted by honte View Post
The only of Reilly's suggestions that pleased me (I think this was on his list) was Pritzker "park" (AKA Pritzker fenced-off and unimproved patch of dirt), which would be right on State, adjacent to all of Chicago's train lines, publicly owned, and ultra-visible.
I hadn't even thought of this site, this would be the ultimate place to build it. Also, then K+S could design a building you can actually see.

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Originally Posted by cbotnyse View Post
I'm not saying I disagree with the rest of your post, becuase I'm still on the fence about the issue, but it is only 3-4 blocks from the Wabash el stops, many Metra lines run into Grant Park, there is a stop right on Randolph and Michigan, not to mention the many bus lines that circle Grant Park. I dont know how much more accessible it could be to the public.
Count again, its 5-6 blocks depending on how you count it. I'll give you that there are a lot of metra lines that converge there. More accessible to the public would be the plot mentioned by Honte above, literally built on top of and below all of our el lines...

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Originally Posted by pilsenarch View Post
I have designed city blocks in downtown Chicago, it is absurd to be accusing me of not understanding architecture and how it gets built. I would suggest we refrain from the personal attacks.
I dunno, maybe having designed whole blocks in downtown Chicago isn't a thing to brag about if you ask certain forumers like Adrian who think most design in Chicago sucks.

Anyhow, no one is doubting your knowledge of architecture, but if you think that you should ignore law when considering design and planning than no matter how much you know about architecture, your opinion holds no value in the real world.

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Originally Posted by pilsenarch View Post
The legal arguments are all being made a little naively....the entire portion of Grant Park north of Monroe has been built on ABOVE grade as it relates to Michigan Avenue years ago when they built the garage and simply filled dirt on top....
That is irrelevant because it is now the grade of the land since they raised it. If you wanted to make that arguement you could say that nothing could be built underneath grant park unless it was below the water table since the original elevation of grant park was below the surface of the lake, which would just be ridiculous. If the museum was just using an entrance the size of the current Daley bi, I would be fine with it, but since they are eating up like 20x the space that is currently occupied, its not ok.
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  #3217  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2008, 2:10 AM
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the 'ground' was raised to cover the garage....
That might be true of the East Monroe garage, but not the Grant Park North and South garages. After all, their topmost levels include the area underneath Michigan Avenue, which was obviously already at its current grade.
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  #3218  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2008, 2:36 AM
pilsenarch pilsenarch is offline
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^yes, I was speaking of the Monroe garage, which, of course, is also the site in question....you will now have to also include the Millinnium Park garage, of course....

nowhereman, I stand by my earlier post with re to you....in fact, you did it again in your latest post....
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  #3219  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2008, 5:16 AM
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str to the point... lse residents dont want pub shcl kids bused in daily to their oasis.... but, if your playing the open and free card, wasn't millenium park essentiallly a building ( parking garage) built on the Grant PaRK foot print... so ... why the selective fight....? to me with the
Randolph viaduct edge,... it makes sense to have a cliff reducing structure that brings people year round to GP.
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  #3220  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2008, 5:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaSalle.St.Station View Post
if your playing the open and free card, wasn't millenium park essentiallly a building ( parking garage) built on the Grant PaRK foot print... so ... why the selective fight....?
I'd suggest that Millennium Park was a bit of a special case since it was built over the Illinois Central tracks, which were never really part of Grant ark but rather a right-of-way through it; the garage elevation doesn't exceed the surrounding elevations. So it's not an obstruction.
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