Division Transit Project

[PacificNW]

Originally Posted by dabom

i saw the brt in eugene a few days ago and it looks silly. where are the train tracks?

It is "bus rapid transit"... No tracks..

[dubu]

there saving up for some tracks and a train there? thats the first thing you think of when seeing brt

[davehogan]

Originally Posted by dabom

there saving up for some tracks and a train there? thats the first thing you think of when seeing brt

Pretty much. BRT usually can be opened faster and cheaper than light rail, and be a pathway to a LRT solution in the long term by reserving right of way and encouraging development along the BRT alignment.

[maccoinnich]

Metro has posted an interactive map with the routes under consideration, and the pros and cons of each. It seems pretty likely than the route will be Transit Mall > Tillikum Crossing > SE Powell > SE 82nd > SE Division > NE Hogan Rd > SE Stark, terminating at Mt Hood Community College. It looks like there will be dedicated busways east of SE Cesar Chavez, but not between SE Milwaukie and SE Cesar Chavez.

(I had not previously realized that in Gresham it is possible to have streets with a SE name to the north of streets with a NE name.)

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

Metro has posted an interactive map with the routes under consideration, and the pros and cons of each. It seems pretty likely than the route will be Transit Mall > Tillikum Crossing > SE Powell > SE 82nd > SE Division > NE Hogan Rd > SE Stark, terminating at Mt Hood Community College. It looks like there will be dedicated busways east of SE Cesar Chavez, but not between SE Milwaukie and SE Cesar Chavez.

(I had not previously realized that in Gresham it is possible to have streets with a SE name to the north of streets with a NE name.)

It already sounds like it will be a half assed project that will basically be a glorified bus line.

[davehogan]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

It already sounds like it will be a half assed project that will basically be a glorified bus line.

Really all any transit is just a glorified bus line. What's wrong with having a high capacity bus with infrequent stops and nice stations?

[hat]

Originally Posted by davehogan

Really all any transit is just a glorified bus line. What's wrong with having a high capacity bus with infrequent stops and nice stations?

Wow. This statement can't be any more false. Ride the Yellow Line during rush hour. It often passes 20-30 cars. Ride the Blue/Red/Green during rush hour and often the same or more. Now imagine riding the new bus on Powell during traffic. All planes are just glorified air balloons.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by davehogan

Really all any transit is just a glorified bus line. What's wrong with having a high capacity bus with infrequent stops and nice stations?

Transit that has its own lane or rail line is much more than a glorified bus line. When transit runs in traffic, then that is what I mean by glorified bus line. BRT is suppose to be separate lanes from car traffic, but if the BRT runs in traffic, then it isn't a BRT.

[davehogan]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

Transit that has its own lane or rail line is much more than a glorified bus line. When transit runs in traffic, then that is what I mean by glorified bus line. BRT is suppose to be separate lanes from car traffic, but if the BRT runs in traffic, then it isn't a BRT.

So other than being a bit bigger the streetcar is a lot different than a bus because...?

The Powell/Division corridor will likely have dedicated lanes except from 17th to 39th. 22 blocks sounds like a lot, but much of that is a grade separated underpass, or properties with no driveways facing Powell. There are a few traffic lights, but the buses can get away from the traffic again near SE Milwaukie toward the new bridge.

It's a few trades for the neighborhood. At the last meeting I went to about it they were saying that opening in 2019/2020 is feasible if it's a bus. Beyond the new fleet of vehicles that just requires repainting some lanes and adding stations for a large part of the route, and adding some signal prioritization at traffic lights. It's a lot cheaper, which means finding funding sources won't take as long, and it can piggyback off the costs of building the bridge and busway for the Orange Line.

No, it's not MAX, but it connects lots of new areas in East Portland (and parts east of that) to the Green Line, and for people inside I-205 connects them to downtown better than the 9. If you haven't taken the 9 it stops all the time, and it's usually well over capacity inside SE 39th.

The part inside SE 39th would be nice to have as dedicated MAX tracks, but since according to Metro there's no viable way to do that without spending billions more (vs about $600 million if I remember correctly for the Bus version if ODOT agrees to hand over some parking lots), the BRT doesn't seem like a bad idea.

[hat]

Originally Posted by davehogan

So other than being a bit bigger the streetcar is a lot different than a bus because...?

The Powell/Division corridor will likely have dedicated lanes except from 17th to 39th. 22 blocks sounds like a lot, but much of that is a grade separated underpass, or properties with no driveways facing Powell. There are a few traffic lights, but the buses can get away from the traffic again near SE Milwaukie toward the new bridge.

It's a few trades for the neighborhood. At the last meeting I went to about it they were saying that opening in 2019/2020 is feasible if it's a bus. Beyond the new fleet of vehicles that just requires repainting some lanes and adding stations for a large part of the route, and adding some signal prioritization at traffic lights. It's a lot cheaper, which means finding funding sources won't take as long, and it can piggyback off the costs of building the bridge and busway for the Orange Line.

No, it's not MAX, but it connects lots of new areas in East Portland (and parts east of that) to the Green Line, and for people inside I-205 connects them to downtown better than the 9. If you haven't taken the 9 it stops all the time, and it's usually well over capacity inside SE 39th.

The part inside SE 39th would be nice to have as dedicated MAX tracks, but since according to Metro there's no viable way to do that without spending billions more (vs about $600 million if I remember correctly for the Bus version if ODOT agrees to hand over some parking lots), the BRT doesn't seem like a bad idea.

It's a great stopgap effort that will have negligible effects on ridership and speed, but improves what we have. It will have negligible effect on transfers from other bus lines (as opposed to MAX), and reducing reliance on SOVs.

I would prefer to see this type of effort on all corridors (SW included) before an environmental analysis and long-term plans. It is a fairly cheap improvement that can be implemented in the near-term. It is also fairly worthless in the long run.

[zilfondel]

There is a public open house for the SE line this afternoon at the rail heritage center from 4-7.

[maccoinnich]

Just to clarify: although Powell-Division will have a table there, it's primarily an open house for the SE Quadrant portion of the Central City 2035 plan. Still well worth going to though.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by davehogan

So other than being a bit bigger the streetcar is a lot different than a bus because...?

In the case of how the streetcar functions in Portland right now, not much.

The Powell/Division corridor will likely have dedicated lanes except from 17th to 39th. 22 blocks sounds like a lot, but much of that is a grade separated underpass, or properties with no driveways facing Powell. There are a few traffic lights, but the buses can get away from the traffic again near SE Milwaukie toward the new bridge.

It's a few trades for the neighborhood. At the last meeting I went to about it they were saying that opening in 2019/2020 is feasible if it's a bus. Beyond the new fleet of vehicles that just requires repainting some lanes and adding stations for a large part of the route, and adding some signal prioritization at traffic lights. It's a lot cheaper, which means finding funding sources won't take as long, and it can piggyback off the costs of building the bridge and busway for the Orange Line.

No, it's not MAX, but it connects lots of new areas in East Portland (and parts east of that) to the Green Line, and for people inside I-205 connects them to downtown better than the 9. If you haven't taken the 9 it stops all the time, and it's usually well over capacity inside SE 39th.

The part inside SE 39th would be nice to have as dedicated MAX tracks, but since according to Metro there's no viable way to do that without spending billions more (vs about $600 million if I remember correctly for the Bus version if ODOT agrees to hand over some parking lots), the BRT doesn't seem like a bad idea.

All I am saying is that it wouldn't be much of a BRT. In East Portland it would function much more as a BRT system though.

[maccoinnich]

Comment by EngineerScotty on Portland Transport:

Powell/Division was narrowed down further last night: http://www.oregonmetro.gov/news/powe...s-portland-and

* The project will use Tilikum Crossing, not the Ross Island Bridge.
* Alignments using Cesar Chavez Boulevard and SE 92nd were removed from the table. Use of 82nd to cross from Powell to Division is the overwhelming favorite, though the 50th/52nd options remain on the table.
* In Gresham, the Eastman Parkway, Cleveland Avenue, and Hogan Road routings remain on the table. Ending the line at Gresham TC, and the Powell and Division/Kane routings have been dropped.

[MarkDaMan]

TriMet faster-transit line to Gresham activity shifts into higher gear
Aug 31, 2015, 6:44am PDT
Andy Giegerich
Digital Managing Editor
Portland Business Journal

http://www.bizjournals.com/portland/...T&t=1441045726

Multnomah County leaders will study a transportation option that could reshape several Portland neighborhoods, not to mention transit routes for those heading to Gresham.

Materials describing the Powell-Division Transit and Development Plan include several discussions of commercial development along the routes. The proposed “high-capacity transit” system would provide rides with vehicles that make fewer stops, travel at higher speeds, have more frequent service and carry more people than local service transit such as typical bus lines.

The project is in the design and environmental phase and could hit streets by 2020. Multnomah County's Board will examine the idea at its Thursday meeting. The county could contribute $130,000 worth of in-kind staffing for the project.

Planners, including those at the regional government agency Metro, say the efforts would benefit the 18,000 riders on Southeast Division Streets and Powell Boulevard who use the system every day.

Preliminary designs would call for the bus to travel along both Division and Powell until either Southeast 50th, 82nd or 92nd avenue before cutting north, then east on Division the rest of the way into Gresham.

...

[maccoinnich]

Proposed stations [PDF] for Powell-Division. Given the relatively limited scope of this project (buses, likely in mixed traffic) it amazes me that we're still five years away from this thing opening.

[65MAX]

The timeline shows a construction start date of early 2018, a full 2+ years to finalize design and funding. So a little over 2-1/2 years of construction sounds about right. I'm hoping it's more than just buses in mixed traffic, but unfortunately there are probably a couple of stretches (close-in Powell and 82nd) where they'll settle for BRT-lite, not true BRT.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

Proposed stations [PDF] for Powell-Division. Given the relatively limited scope of this project (buses, likely in mixed traffic) it amazes me that we're still five years away from this thing opening.

It's a glorified bus line, this is something they could easy have up and running, and just make improvements as they go.

[65MAX]

If it was just buses, then yes, it would be quick to get up and running. But it's supposed to be a dedicated ROW for most (but probably not 100%) of its length, so that means redesigning and rebuilding all of inner Powell and outer Division. It would be similar to what they did with N Interstate and E Burnside. Plus ordering a couple dozen new BRT-type buses would take at least a year or two AFTER the design work was finished and the funding was secured. Like I said, I don't think an early 2018 construction start is unreasonable at all.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by 65MAX

If it was just buses, then yes, it would be quick to get up and running. But it's supposed to be a dedicated ROW for most (but probably not 100%) of its length, so that means redesigning and rebuilding all of inner Powell and outer Division. It would be similar to what they did with N Interstate and E Burnside. Plus ordering a couple dozen new BRT-type buses would take at least a year or two AFTER the design work was finished and the funding was secured. Like I said, I don't think an early 2018 construction start is unreasonable at all.

Has anything changed? The last thing I saw on this, they were basically putting in new intersections that would have timed lights to let buses go first, but the buses were still mostly sharing the road with cars.