Geographic oddities - Page 25

edale · #**481** Posted **May 6, 2021, 5:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000

You’re talking about cultural Catholicism and following traditions. That’s fine. We’ve already been through it above.

Are you Catholic? Someone can still be religiously Catholic even if they don't attend mass often or believe every aspect of the church's teachings. There are major differences between Catholic and Protestant ideology, especially with things like 'original sin', the role/symbology of baptism, sainthood and praying to saints for intercession...many more. Someone can hold those Catholic beliefs and still not practice or attend mass.

Unless you're some pre-Vatican II mega Catholic, I find your outlook on this very odd. And it's not one I've heard from even very devout Catholics, who tend to think non-practicers have just 'strayed from the flock', but wouldn't say that they're not Catholic.

eschaton · #**482** Posted **May 6, 2021, 5:51 PM**

I mean, the Church counts you as being Catholic your entire life if you were baptized, unless you specifically contact them and tell them you have converted to another faith or something. Therefore, in the eyes of the Pope there are only "bad" Catholics, not really ex-Catholics.

pj3000 · #**483** Posted **May 6, 2021, 5:54 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

I see that you didn't cross paths with the Jesuits, did you?

Catholicism is not a single thing.

Never has been.

Fucking hippies.

I grew up in an Irish-Italian-Polish dominated immigrant city, so the Jesuits definitely spread their message to me.

Not saying it’s a “single thing”… only that understanding, accepting, practicing, and obeying the faith is the essence of what being Catholic (religiously) is. It may consider itself a “universal” religion, but that doesn’t mean “pick and choose”. There is an orthodoxy to it.

Steely Dan · #**484** Posted **May 6, 2021, 5:56 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000

There is an orthodoxy to it.

unless you go to a Jesuit high school for 4 years.

your definition of "catholic" is not the only one.

the fact that you think it is, is ironically very un-catholic.

Acajack · #**485** Posted **May 6, 2021, 6:10 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Maybe you're not supposed to, but that's what Catholics do anyway.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Catholic-majority societies culturally tend be a bit...looser with the rules.

That's one of the best things about Catholicism. It's very user-friendly.

You can do (just about) anything and be forgiven. Just as long as you regret it.

pj3000 · #**486** Posted **May 6, 2021, 6:10 PM**

I know there are plenty of definitions of Catholic out there. Capital C and lower case c… with running the full gamut within that broad spectrum.

In Catholicism, like in Islam or Judaism, if you’re not actively adhering to and practicing the defined ritual, you’re not religiously of the faith.

This view might be very un-Catholic… because even though I was raised as a Catholic and did all the bullshit, I’m likely the least Catholic you’ll find.

Like I said above, Catholics don’t like to hear it. Modern convenient lifestyle doesn’t fit ancient religions. And that’s ok… it’s totally fine to identify as a cultural Catholic.

BillM · #**487** Posted **May 6, 2021, 6:12 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

unless you go to a Jesuit high school for 4 years.

your definition of "catholic" is not the only one.

the fact that you think it is, is ironically very un-catholic.

I never found "catholic" in the USA to be a geographic oddity.

Steely Dan · #**488** Posted **May 6, 2021, 6:12 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000

In Catholicism, like in Islam or Judaism, if you’re not actively adhering to and practicing the defined ritual, you’re not religiously of the faith.

The Jesuits told me otherwise.

I guess they aren't catholic.

Because you said so?

pj3000 · #**489** Posted **May 6, 2021, 6:12 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's one of the best things about Catholicism. It's very user-friendly.

You can do (just about) anything and be forgiven. Just as long as you regret it.

Exactly. The convenient, all-about-me religion. Customize at your will!

It wasn’t always quite that way…

pj3000 · #**490** Posted **May 6, 2021, 6:18 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

The Jesuits told me otherwise.

I guess they aren't catholic.

Because you said so?

There are definitely those who would not consider the Jesuits to be Catholic. That’s not how I feel.

Your Jesuit education told you that you do not have to adhere to and practice the ritualistic faith of the religion? I find that hard to believe.

edale · #**491** Posted **May 6, 2021, 6:25 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000

I know there are plenty of definitions of Catholic out there. Capital C and lower case c… with running the full gamut within that broad spectrum.

In Catholicism, like in Islam or Judaism, if you’re not actively adhering to and practicing the defined ritual, you’re not religiously of the faith.

This view might be very un-Catholic… because even though I was raised as a Catholic and did all the bullshit, I’m likely the least Catholic you’ll find.

Like I said above, Catholics don’t like to hear it. Modern convenient lifestyle doesn’t fit ancient religions. And that’s ok… it’s totally fine to identify as a cultural Catholic.

It's not that Catholics don't like to hear it, it's that you're seemingly pulling this out of thin air and trying to declare it as fact. Given the response you're getting here, I think your definition of who is and is not Catholic is the one that's out of whack.

Are people who are too sick to attend mass not "religiously of the faith"? What about the super conservative Catholics who openly oppose the current Pope's messaging on gay rights, immigration, etc. Are they not Catholic because they oppose the Pope, or is the Pope himself not Catholic for veering away from past church teachings?

Your whole argument about this is very strange. Again, I've literally never heard it before in my life.

Steely Dan · #**492** Posted **May 6, 2021, 6:28 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000

There are definitely those who would not consider the Jesuits to be Catholic.

ahhhhh, but the Jesuits still absolutely consider themselves to be Catholic. The judgement of others is not what matters, only that of God.

which is precisely why your "my way is the only way to define who is and isn't a Catholic" is utter nonsense.

you're describing "orthodoxy", not "catholic".

Jews can be "orthodox", "conservative", "reformed", etc., but they're all still Jews in their own eyes.

so it is with Catholics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000

Your Jesuit education told you that you do not have to adhere to and practice the ritualistic faith of the religion?

not in those exact words, but yes.

like you said, they're fucking hippies.

pj3000 · #**493** Posted **May 6, 2021, 6:59 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by edale

It's not that Catholics don't like to hear it, it's that you're seemingly pulling this out of thin air and trying to declare it as fact. Given the response you're getting here, I think your definition of who is and is not Catholic is the one that's out of whack.

Are people who are too sick to attend mass not "religiously of the faith"? What about the super conservative Catholics who openly oppose the current Pope's messaging on gay rights, immigration, etc. Are they not Catholic because they oppose the Pope, or is the Pope himself not Catholic for veering away from past church teachings?

Your whole argument about this is very strange. Again, I've literally never heard it before in my life.

When's the last time you went to Confession? Said the Holy Rosary? Self-renunciation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

which is precisely why your "my way is the only way to define who is and isn't a Catholic" is utter nonsense.

not in those exact words, but yes.

It's not "my way". And I've said over and over that people can define themselves however they want to define themselves.

But don't try to come off as a Catholic with capital C, when you don't even practice the fucking religion. That's all. I don't fault you one single bit. I don't do it either... and I still consider my self catholic, in a way, because of my upbringing. But my heresy only goes so far...

Jesuits are certainly all about intellectual curiosity and development and much more forgiving/liberal interpretation, but adherence to the entirety of the Catholic faith is a hallmark of the Society of Jesus. Again... hippies

I did not attend a Jesuit high school, but my next door neighbor growing up was a former Jesuit priest, who was also the father of one of my best friends, and was a professor of theology at multiple Catholic universities. I certainly learned quite a bit about Catholicism and religion, in general (much more than I ever learned in school, CCD, or church)... and definitely learned that the practice of the Catholic ritual was central to the Jesuits.

Take our current Pope... a Jesuit. MUCH more open, pliable, accepting... more Jesus-like, right? He still is heavily religious and promotes the ritual among Catholics.

Steely Dan · #**494** Posted **May 6, 2021, 7:07 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000

But don't try to come off as a Catholic with capital C, when you don't even practice the fucking religion.

"practicing the fucking religion" doesn't even have a universally agreed upon meaning.

seriously man, start digging deeper into Catholicism and all of its myriad orders and their innumerable conflicts and contradictions with each other.

It's a very wide and diverse faith, not a narrow and singular one.

and in my 4 years of attending a Jesuit high school, i didn't encounter a single Jesuit priest or brother who would've ever dared to define who is and isn't a "Catholic".

that shit is squarely in God's realm, not yours or mine.

pj3000 · #**495** Posted **May 6, 2021, 7:12 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

ahhhhh, but the Jesuits still absolutely consider themselves to be Catholic. The judgement of others is not what matters, only that of God.

which is precisely why your "my way is the only way to define who is and isn't a Catholic" is utter nonsense.

you're describing "orthodoxy", not "catholic".

Jews can be "orthodox", "conservative", "reformed", etc., but they're all still Jews in their own eyes.

so it is with Catholics.

not in those exact words, but yes.

like you said, they're fucking hippies.

Absolutely they do. And I do too. Conservative Catholics, who follow doctrine to the letter, obviously take issue with the Jesuits as not "authenitic" Catholicism. I do not agree with that whatsoever.

And yeah, I am likely describing orthodoxy in some aspects. Without going into talk about unleavened bread and all that shit

, there is something to be said about adherence when it comes to religion (i.e., a set of rules to faithfully follow).

Jews are different case though in terms of orthodoxy, in comparison to Catholics. Whether reform, orthodox, etc., the ritual is still largely followed. Otherwise, one is a secular Jew. Irreligious. There is religious Jewishness and there is secular Jewishness. Doesn't really exist in the same way in Catholicism.

pj3000 · #**496** Posted **May 6, 2021, 7:20 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

"practicing the fucking religion" doesn't even have a universally agreed upon meaning.

seriously man, start digging deeper into Catholicism and all of its myriad orders and their innumerable conflicts and contradictions with each other.

It's a very wide and diverse faith, not a narrow and singular one.

and in my 4 years of attending a Jesuit high school, i didn't not encounter a single Jesuit priest or brother who would've ever dared to define who is and isn't a "Catholic".

that shit is squarely in God's realm, not yours or mine.

I would never think that the Jesuits would tell someone what they are or are not... it would go up against their ideals.

But I'm not a Jesuit.

And I don't believe in God... so for me, He doesn't have a realm. But I am human, and I'm talking about a human creation... so it's squarely in my wheelhouse.

Again, Catholics hate to hear this stuff because it sheds light on the fact that they largely have no real interest in practicing the religion that they belong to.

202_Cyclist · #**497** Posted **May 6, 2021, 7:23 PM**

So, does anyone have any fun geographic facts?

Steely Dan · #**498** Posted **May 6, 2021, 7:24 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj3000

Again, Catholics hate to hear this stuff

i highly doubt that's true.

the Catholics that i know wouldn't give much notice or care to the opinions of their faith from a self-admitted non-believer.

iheartthed · #**499** Posted **May 6, 2021, 7:34 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

So, does anyone have any fun geographic facts?

Americans love a litmus test.

pj3000 · #**500** Posted **May 6, 2021, 7:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Americans love a litmus test.

I don't think talk of religion is a litmus test at all. It doesn't decide anything... at least not for me... it's just interesting conversation.

I guess we could put a geographic spin on it somehow... maybe, something like what regions are populated by the most lapsed Catholics?

Though I'm pretty sure the answer would mirror the regions populated by the most Catholics (self-identifying, of course).