Surrey Langley Skytrain - Expo Line Extension | Proposed

[casper]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Would it make any sense to have Expo Line run only between Waterfront - Production Way and then gave a separate Surrey Line run between New Westminster and Langley? Would changing trains either at Columbia or New Westminster make any sense for the sake of keeping a schedule?

As a passenger there is no advantage. It is an extra step if you have to change and if you don't need to there no advantage.

As for the King George and Langley trains I would expect the trains that only go as far King George to to be peak service.

I would hope they design the King George station to accommodate a branch to Newton in the future the same way that Lougheed was designed to accommodate a branch.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by casper

I would hope they design the King George station to accommodate a branch to Newton in the future the same way that Lougheed was designed to accommodate a branch.

Actually it would be Surrey Central where the line would split. King George Station is off KGB and pointing down Fraser Hwy - it would have to loop behind Surrey Memorial to get back onto KGB, which just adds a lot of extra track (and money) for no good reason.

I'm still all for building any new lines as separate as too many branches just leads to less service on each branch. Extend Expo Line down Fraser Hwy and have a combined station (like Commercial-Broadway Station) for a line down KGB to Newton.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I'm still all for building any new lines as separate as too many branches just leads to less service on each branch. Extend Expo Line down Fraser Hwy and have a combined station (like Commercial-Broadway Station) for a line down KGB to Newton.

Alternatively, a parallel underground station so that it can extend to Guildford. But that's another thread.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by officedweller

For Newton, they could have a switch that points down
Quibble Creek and the hydro RoW for a station east of the hospital then veers back to KGB.
It would be an easy buildout over greenspace and parking lots.
I think that's doable even if need is a long way out (ie like PoCo switch at Coquitlam Central).
It would provide Newton with a development boost when a line is built.

104th is a lot more awkward as you'd have to branch off the existing line.


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ki...4d-122.8447973

I still think this makes sense. A station at 96th would be near all those new Larco office buildings.

Originally Posted by Klazu

Would it make any sense to have Expo Line run only between Waterfront - Production Way and then gave a separate Surrey Line run between New Westminster and Langley? Would changing trains either at Columbia or New Westminster make any sense for the sake of keeping a schedule?

Past SkyTrain studies have suggested the opposite
- that Columbia - Lougheed would be a "shuttle service" due to low ridership,
with emphasis on the high ridership line to Surrey.

[scryer]

Tl;DR: I fully support a Skytrain line to Newton. However the KGB portion of the line is going to be a logistical nightmare.

Originally Posted by Sheba

Actually it would be Surrey Central where the line would split. King George Station is off KGB and pointing down Fraser Hwy - it would have to loop behind Surrey Memorial to get back onto KGB, which just adds a lot of extra track (and money) for no good reason.

Originally Posted by officedweller

I still think this makes sense. A station at 96th would be near all those new Larco office buildings.

I get that we are moving into fantasy land but to me, it also makes sense to have it loop behind Surrey Memorial because there would be a lot less interference on KGB.

Basically when we get to the point of extending the Skytrain south to Newton and beyond (I want to it get to Semiahmoo/White Rock eventually ), it's going to be a dog's breakfast trying to construct and align the Skytrain line down KGB. There is a lot going on along KGB logistically:

- KGB doesn't have a clear median so already we have to find space for the Skytrain.

- KGB can't be easily widened AFAIK (please feel free to correct me ) so you either have to take away a lane or find more space somehow. It doesn't seem as simple or as easy to widen as the Fraser Highway is. And TBF, I'm honestly not sure how technically difficult it is to widen any kind of avenue. Like is it as simple as extending each side by 1-2 metres, for example ?

- KGB is a major roadway in Surrey that gets frequent traffic jams. So construction along KGB is going to be an absolute bitch to deal with; what this means is that it's going to be hard to convince drivers that the construction is worth it for the result (but hey, we had the shabby LRT plan that the city almost went with, so there's that).

- There's a lot of businesses and homes that are built up pretty much right alongside KGB. To me, that indicates that we'll need to eliminate traffic lanes to fit the Skytrain guideways and stations. IMO, it may be worth it but at the same time, it would be extremely disruptive to all of Surrey's traffic patterns (although perhaps less disruptive than that LRT bullet we dodged), including truck traffic who may opt to using 152nd as their primary route which would swell the number of trucks that area sees.

I also wanted to note that to have the line split off at some point, it does require a somewhat significant piece of infrastructure to install a switch and a spur (lol, not sure if I'm using the right terminology), and that it would be easier to split the line after King George station around Quibble Creek as there would be a lot more room to work with. In contrast trying to split the line before KG station would have you contending with Holland Park, a potentially new tower there, a super busy part of KGB, and having to test a switch that would potentially interfere with the switch for KG station that's already functioning.

Also by splitting the line after KG station (to loop behind Surrey Memorial), you would even have the space and flexibility to bury the line underground if the project warranted an underground separation along KGB. I am also assuming that this is geologically possible lol.

I'm not sure if I see the Surrey-Newton-Guildford line being an underground line (and I really don't want to get into the Surrey Central-Guildford portion to continue derailing this thread ) as I do earnestly think it's possible to get an elevated line down KGB (as the former LRT project is giving me hope). However what this line will warrant is significant upgrades to Surrey Central Station. Of which, I would personally like to see an extended Spanish Solution platform alongside the east tracks with escalator/elevator access. I'm thinking of something along the lines of the Metrotown upgrade done right. Surrey Central will become the Waterfront station of the SoF municipalities and so the Newton line will put new pressures on the Skytrain station. And we will hopefully see Surrey Central Station become more busier with the extension to Langley along with the many developments happening in Surrey Central.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by scryer

- KGB doesn't have a clear median so already we have to find space for the Skytrain.

- KGB can't be easily widened AFAIK (please feel free to correct me ) so you either have to take away a lane or find more space somehow. It doesn't seem as simple or as easy to widen as the Fraser Highway is. And TBF, I'm honestly not sure how technically difficult it is to widen any kind of avenue. Like is it as simple as extending each side by 1-2 metres, for example ?

- KGB is a major roadway in Surrey that gets frequent traffic jams. So construction along KGB is going to be an absolute bitch to deal with; what this means is that it's going to be hard to convince drivers that the construction is worth it for the result (but hey, we had the shabby LRT plan that the city almost went with, so there's that).

Actually KGB has basically a center left turn lane down almost all of it - with a bit of careful planning on where the concrete columns are placed it's doable. Sure south of 56th Ave would require some work due to the road becoming an overpass (existing rail tracks that aren't going away) but that's well beyond Newton and waaaay in the future.

Also both KGB and Fraser Hwy are similar widths, are major roadways, and have businesses and homes built right up alongside them. Both will be a bitch to build out as far as drivers are concerned (just like the Canada Line was). So honestly I don't see much of a difference as far as physically building them.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by officedweller

The consultation for the M-Line west of Arbutus will probably be brutal
- especially if they want to continue straight on Broadway past Alma (instead of 10th) to hit the Jericho lands.

Originally Posted by Sheba

Sure south of 56th Ave would require some work due to the road becoming an overpass (existing rail tracks that aren't going away) but that's well beyond Newton and waaaay in the future.

It does look as if the guideway could easily start to curve shortly before the roadway does on the north side, then run parallel to the road across the tracks, and rejoin the roadway once that returns to ground level. Alternatively, TransLink might well explore some option that allows them to cut out the bends altogether and go straight across that gap from Highway 10 to just north of the river.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

It does look as if the guideway could easily start to curve shortly before the roadway does on the north side, then run parallel to the road across the tracks, and rejoin the roadway once that returns to ground level. Alternatively, TransLink might well explore some option that allows them to cut out the bends altogether and go straight across that gap from Highway 10 to just north of the river.

They could - but it's not even on their radar for likely another decade. In the meantime they get to have loads of fun building along the Fraser Hwy through the ALR. Someone posted on here previously that the ground through there is similar to peanut butter (hardly surprising considering it's a flood plain) so they're going to have to drive piles into the ground for the concrete guideway columns to connect to.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Feasibility aside, splitting the Expo to Newton increases the chance of switching failure, and means that the shortest possible headway on each branch is 3-4 minutes. At the current frequency, that's 7-8 minutes at peak.

It's cheaper and easier in the short term than a Newton-Guildford Line... but is it worth the long-term penalty? Might end up being like the single-tracking in Richmond.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Feasibility aside, splitting the Expo to Newton increases the chance of switching failure, and means that the shortest possible headway on each branch is 3-4 minutes. At the current frequency, that's 7-8 minutes at peak.

It's cheaper and easier in the short term than a Newton-Guildford Line... but is it worth the long-term penalty? Might end up being like the single-tracking in Richmond.

Exactly. As I said earlier: "I'm still all for building any new lines as separate as too many branches just leads to less service on each branch. Extend Expo Line down Fraser Hwy and have a combined station (like Commercial-Broadway Station) for a line down KGB to Newton."

[officedweller]

I think it depends where the ridership in Surrey / Langley is coming from.
If the Braid Sapperton section becomes a shuttle, then there would only be one branch on the line.
I think the main motivation with installing a switch to Newton is that it puts the foot in the door for SkyTrain to Newton,
otherwise it may end up as LRT again.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Be that as it may, it would be inadvisable to rush out a subpar option just because we're worried about the other, lousier one.

It could work IF Columbia Station can even handle a shuttle - there's only two tracks and not much expansion room - AND we don't ever need a Guildford or a Coquitlam-Surrey route. You could interline one with the Expo (Coq-Newton, Waterfront-Langley), but again, TL's had numerous switching failures before.

Originally Posted by Sheba

Exactly. As I said earlier: "I'm still all for building any new lines as separate as too many branches just leads to less service on each branch. Extend Expo Line down Fraser Hwy and have a combined station (like Commercial-Broadway Station) for a line down KGB to Newton."

Yeah, and I read that as a twinned Surrey Central station (which can't go to Guildford because the Expo's in the way), so I said "Alternatively, a parallel underground station so that it can extend to Guildford."

[xd_1771]

I don't think King George Blvd would be that much of a challenge to build a SkyTrain guideway down, if such a project were adopted. Consider that on Fraser, the project team was able to fit the guideway largely on the north side of Fraser Highway with both minimal property acquisition and minimal roadway modification (in fact in most areas between 148th/166th, per the roll plots that were briefly on the website, the roadway isn't modified at all and remains as-is.). How much easier King George which already has wide-spec traffic lanes on top of plenty of median space and right-of-way space.

If a 2030 Olympics bid were to proceed and we win it, that might speed up the timeline of further rail infra in Surrey considerably. Maybe a bit ambitious to expect KGB phase 1 (Newton), UBC and a North Shore to expect at the same time but hey, ridership-wise we are far ahead of 2010 when the Canada Line was delivered to add 19km all at once.

Now consider the following:

• Arbutus to UBC = ~7km to main campus (another 2km to Westbrook Village)
• Downtown to North Shore = ~7.5km (Expo Line option to Lonsdale; or ~8.5km Canada Line option to Park Royal)
• King George Station to Newton = 5.5km

Total: Approx. 20-21km


I think it's doable!

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Actually KGB has basically a center left turn lane down almost all of it - with a bit of careful planning on where the concrete columns are placed it's doable. Sure south of 56th Ave would require some work due to the road becoming an overpass (existing rail tracks that aren't going away) but that's well beyond Newton and waaaay in the future.

Also both KGB and Fraser Hwy are similar widths, are major roadways, and have businesses and homes built right up alongside them. Both will be a bitch to build out as far as drivers are concerned (just like the Canada Line was). So honestly I don't see much of a difference as far as physically building them.

This was the correction I was hoping for .

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Feasibility aside, splitting the Expo to Newton increases the chance of switching failure, and means that the shortest possible headway on each branch is 3-4 minutes. At the current frequency, that's 7-8 minutes at peak.

It's cheaper and easier in the short term than a Newton-Guildford Line... but is it worth the long-term penalty? Might end up being like the single-tracking in Richmond.

My idea was assuming that the extension to Newton would operate as a separate line and only sharing the Expo track for KG and SC stations (and later branching off to Guildford). Does sharing tracks like this for a short distance delay the service frequency this significantly or is it just that adding another switch to the Expo line (at any point) after the Langley extension will cause a drop in service frequency?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by scryer

My idea was assuming that the extension to Newton would operate as a separate line and only sharing the Expo track for KG and SC stations (and later branching off to Guildford). Does sharing tracks like this for a short distance really interrupt the service frequency or is it just that adding another switch to the Expo line (at any point) after the Langley extension will cause a drop in service frequency?

Might be fine now with 2.5-minute headways, but service is going to get more and more frequent over time, and even one shared station means that Langley or Newton will eventually have to take priority over the other - you can't have two trains in the same place at once, right? Separate lines means uninterrupted (potential) 1.25 minute service on each line, not just the KG-SC segment.

It also means redundancy; after the last few day-long switching failures, I'd think TL would be very wary of splitting the track. Imagine that the year is 2050 and suddenly the Guildford switch malfunctions...

[Klazu]

I don't know Newton well enough but why would it warrant a SkyTrain branch? Is the area dense enough today or is it all about future densification potential?

[waves]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I still think this makes sense. A station at 96th would be near all those new Larco office buildings.



Past SkyTrain studies have suggested the opposite
- that Columbia - Lougheed would be a "shuttle service" due to low ridership,
with emphasis on the high ridership line to Surrey.

That open pathway of land along Quibble Creek is because of the powerlines. Is it possible to fit in an elevated guideway and the existing powerlines? I am not sure, but it sounds nightmarish, even though it would be an elegant solution if possible.

As for the the splitting of lines causing a reduction in headways mentioned by MC, I would counter that's not totally accurate; there are many creative solutions that can be had for interlining. I have mentioned these ideas before in the TF thread discussing the North Shore, and these ideas have been reaffirmed through the recent planning done for RRT to the NS. I don't have the sources on hand but they are out there if one goes digging.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I don't know Newton well enough but why would it warrant a SkyTrain branch? Is the area dense enough today or is it all about future densification potential?

Future potential. Think of KGB as Surrey's Broadway or Hastings.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by waves

That open pathway of land along Quibble Creek is because of the powerlines. Is it possible to fit in an elevated guideway and the existing powerlines? I am not sure, but it sounds nightmarish, even though it would be an elegant solution if possible.

Probably not an issue:

Originally Posted by jlove390

[paradigm4]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I don't know Newton well enough but why would it warrant a SkyTrain branch? Is the area dense enough today or is it all about future densification potential?

While 'Newton' as a City classified area is quite geographically large, it does have a larger population base than Fleetwood and Cloverdale combined. There's a lot of hidden density in Newton due to the large multi-generational homes of the South Asian population.

Interestingly, if you look at the population projections, there's a larger population base in Newton and South Surrey than along the communities on Fraser Highway, including the Langleys.

https://www.surrey.ca/business-econo...es-projections

Also, as was mentioned, it would be considerably easier to build SkyTrain on King George. The width of the corridor is already much wider than Fraser Highway and there's a larger setback, particularly south of 64th and in South Surrey.