Surrey Langley Skytrain - Expo Line Extension | Proposed

[scottN]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Thanks. So the only changes are truncation of 395 and 503, it seems.

I wonder whether it’d be better to take out 395 altogether and beef up 320 between Fleetwood and Langley Centre and 364 (i.e. 20-minute rush-hour frequency).

Also, rerouting 326 and 388 to serve 152nd Street Station would be beneficial too.

IMO more ought to be done to provide no-transfer connections from nearby neighbourhoods to the skytrain line. In particular 372 ought to be extended to 166st station and there ought to be a direct service from Walnut Grove / Carvolth directly to the skytrain line via 80th or 88th. Limited service on the 388 route is substandard as Carvolth is supposed to be a transit exchange. 341 also misses out on intercepting a station which seems unacceptable to me. If this was my local bus route I would be disappointed.

[waves]

With the size of the bus loop at 166, I think its quite certain that a bunch of bus routes will change to terminate there.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Thanks. So the only changes are truncation of 395 and 503, it seems.

I wonder whether it’d be better to take out 395 altogether and beef up 320 between Fleetwood and Langley Centre and 364 (i.e. 20-minute rush-hour frequency).

Also, rerouting 326 and 388 to serve 152nd Street Station would be beneficial too.

Also 335 truncated at Guildford.

[xd_1771]

Actually now that y'all mention it there are a couple of other super interesting things I'm seeing here... namely:

• The 322 doesn't go to Newton and instead continues north on 132nd St to terminate at Surrey Central
• The 323 doesn't go up to Gateway and instead turns onto 96th Ave to KGB (maybe something is to replace it there?)
• The 324 (and 322) continue south of Surrey Central to King George Station? (I'm sure that's misdrawn)
• The 337 is drawn as a loop like the old times (which again I'm sure is misdrawn, since it's been established that a new 338 will provide more service to the east and 337 will not change)
• That's bus route on 64th Avenue is not the route 364. It is the route 564!?
• The 388 still doesn't have all-day service which I'm pretty sure it will have by the time we hit 2025.

Some of these changes I'm honestly just not sure why but maybe it's a hint at future service optimization ideas that will be presented in the near-mid term.

At any rate I can't seem to think of this as final in any way whatsoever. The existing 326 route for example makes little sense with the new SkyTrain; I'd have made that operate local service east on Fraser Highway to 166 St, so that 156 St passengers can actually access the neighbourhood for once.

Also, with SkyTrain in place I don't see any point in continuing route 502 west of Fleetwood. There's not really any utility in a local bus route going under the SkyTrain through Green Timbers where it will not make any stops. I would terminate it at Fraser/152 and serve the portion between 148-152 with a redirected 341. Basically everybody taking 502 from downtown Surrey today can take SkyTrain to a future station and then connect to a local route/502 from there (and vice versa).

When the full extension is complete, it would be worthwhile to run the 502 between 152 St and Willowbrook, but definitely not further west nor necessarily even further east.

[Express691]

Said 64th Avenue bus on that diagram also extends WB past Scott... current 364 service takes a right at 120th and goes to Scottsdale

[Migrant_Coconut]

Might be that they're holding off on more drastic changes until the SkyTrain goes all the way to Langley?

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Nice to see a more conventional mezzanine station at 140th compared to earlier "overpass" configurations depicted in a previous rendering. They seemed to have kept the guideway low compared to Brentwood Station.

Also good to see side-of-road stations which are smaller scale, cheaper and user friendly.

152nd Station is typical - like Burquitlam or the No. 3 Rd stations.

The 160th is taller and has a short mezzanine (like Marine Gateway?). I wonder if that's for a future mezzanine connection to an adjacent development to the north. I don't think it's high enough to foot a pedestrian bridge across Fraser Highway.

The 166th Station is also taller and has a centre platform for terminus operations and with no tail track visible, switches to the west.

https://www.surreylangleyskytrain.ca...l_plot_web.pdf

According to this document, there is track to the east of the 166 St Station.

It looks like there will be a center storage track to the west of the station, then a tail track to the east.

I really hope they turn the trains around on the tail track. When they use the single platform approach at King George to turn the trains around, it's a mad house.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

I really hope they turn the trains around on the tail track. When they use the single platform approach at King George to turn the trains around, it's a mad house.

That's the plan IIRC. Though it was supposed to be a pocket track...

[officedweller]

Thanks for the plans.
the drawings aren't necessarily accurate and are always subject to artist's interpretation.
The note on the plans does say it is conceptual so there could be changes in the design process.
Hopefully they change the Green Timbers segment from south side of road to the median, as there is no station after 140th in the park.
Good to see the allignment staying on one side of road alignment after 152nd though, as that reduces the number of bents.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

https://www.surreylangleyskytrain.ca...l_plot_web.pdf

According to this document, there is track to the east of the 166 St Station.

It looks like there will be a center storage track to the west of the station, then a tail track to the east.

I really hope they turn the trains around on the tail track. When they use the single platform approach at King George to turn the trains around, it's a mad house.

they've done a lot more work on this than i thought. good to see its moving along, at least the design stage is anyways.

[cornholio]

Still familiar with the area and that 152nd street station is poor planning. It should be across 152nd with a entrance on each side. Or atleast have a walkway to the other side or provide for the ability to easily build one in the future.

Not only is 95% of the densification going to happen on the other side of the street - the bus stops on 152nd heading north bound will be funneling huge passenger numbers to the station. They will all have to cross a major arterial street.

The rest of the stations are fine. 152nd is not.

[Aroundtheworld]

I wonder if they will put in a set of switches after King George to allow a potential southern extension to Newtown.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

I wonder if they will put in a set of switches after King George to allow a potential southern extension to Newtown.

First off there's no need - the RapidBus is nowhere near capacity and likely won't be for a long time. Then there's the same reason the Skytrain won't split off towards Guildford (which tbh has a higher need than Newton) - the track is pointed at Fraser Hwy and it would be an awkward routing to get it onto King George or 104th where it needs to be.

Eventually the RapidBus will be upgraded to something else but it needs to be it's own line and not a branch off the Expo Line. Maybe in a few years they'll start proposing something better than their L Line lrt plans.

[officedweller]

For Newton, they could have a switch that points down
Quibble Creek and the hydro RoW for a station east of the hospital then veers back to KGB.
It would be an easy buildout over greenspace and parking lots.
I think that's doable even if need is a long way out (ie like PoCo switch at Coquitlam Central).
It would provide Newton with a development boost when a line is built.

104th is a lot more awkward as you'd have to branch off the existing line.


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ki...4d-122.8447973

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Still familiar with the area and that 152nd street station is poor planning. It should be across 152nd with a entrance on each side. Or atleast have a walkway to the other side or provide for the ability to easily build one in the future.

Not only is 95% of the densification going to happen on the other side of the street - the bus stops on 152nd heading north bound will be funneling huge passenger numbers to the station. They will all have to cross a major arterial street.

The rest of the stations are fine. 152nd is not.

Yeah, I think they are underestimating the potential demand at 152 St.

152 is a major arterial route that a lot of people do/can/will take to get to Skytrain from East Newton, Sulivan, East Panorama, and even Rosemary Heights and South Surrey. It's going to be a major bus transfer point for buses heading N/S on 152. It would be great if the station were over the intersection.

But I can see how that might be expensive given how wide the intersection is, and that they may need to do remediation work on the Petrocanada property if the station were to occupy part of it.

If they can't build over the street, they should at least consider putting in a full bus loop at the station. I like the bus loop design at 166 St station. They really should incorporate something like that at 152 as well.

I don't think they've done enough to reimagine the bus network and how it can be redone from the ground up around Skytrain. The area is going to need twice as many routes as there are now to properly feed the high density neighborhoods away from the stations.

[rpvan]

Originally Posted by Sheba

First off there's no need - the RapidBus is nowhere near capacity and likely won't be for a long time. Then there's the same reason the Skytrain won't split off towards Guildford (which tbh has a higher need than Newton) - the track is pointed at Fraser Hwy and it would be an awkward routing to get it onto King George or 104th where it needs to be.

Eventually the RapidBus will be upgraded to something else but it needs to be it's own line and not a branch off the Expo Line. Maybe in a few years they'll start proposing something better than their L Line lrt plans.

I'd argue Newton has a higher need for a SkyTrain than Guildford. It's by far the most populous neighbourhood in surrey and would draw a lot more passenger traffic.

[Migrant_Coconut]

At the expense of the rest of the SoF region, though. Keep in mind that Newton's population is only a quarter of Surrey's, and the town centre itself is just as underdeveloped as the others.

[officedweller]

Planning for Newton would be growth-shaping, rather than growth-serving.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Sure, but you can shape growth just fine with only a RapidBus - just look at Broadway over the last twenty-plus years.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Sure, but you can shape growth just fine with only a RapidBus - just look at Broadway over the last twenty-plus years.

Originally Posted by officedweller

Planning for Newton would be growth-shaping, rather than growth-serving.

In a way I feel like Metro Vancouver is very reluctant to shape its growth UNTIL a rapid transit element is introduced even though there are examples of neighbourhoods in the region that have flourished in the past without rapid transit elements such as Guildford. My criticism is that the Metro municipalities in the last 10 years needlessly halt any consideration to significantly develop their urban areas until the Skytrain shows up in their respective neighbourhood. It feels to me like developers are completely depending upon Skytrain stations to develop dense neighbourhoods. POCO is coming to mind here...

There is nothing stopping the city of Surrey from investing into some Newton neighbourhood shaping strategies. The city just needs to design it so that it's flexible enough to accommodate rapid transit expansion. IMO, if Broadway was able to get away with 20+ years of just solid bus service then other dense neighbourhoods can flourish without rapid transit. Luckily, in the next 5 or so years, we will be seeing the Senakw project come to life which shares the lack of rapid transit access (if you don't count the future Arbutus station...) and reduced parking infrastructure. Abbotsford Centre is another project that is coming to mind as well when it comes to dense developments without rapid transit infrastructure.

For the record: I still completely support Skytrain investments and the TOD that springs up because of that. IMO, Fleetwood would have never been considered for a neighbourhood resurgence strategy until the Expo Line announced its extension. And I can't wait to see what Langley will become when the Expo line reaches their neck of the woods .