PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[Larry King]

Originally Posted by 1487

Im not understanding all the hand wringing. North broad will survive the lights. This isn't going to halt development or bring down the areas that are already trending up folks. I'm not sure what type of lights people would prefer, but obviously the exterior materials had to be somewhat robust to survive out in the elements for years. What type of materials would people prefer? They look industrial which is what they should look like considering they are lining a major street that runs through some very old Philly neighborhoods- many of which still have hulking factory buildings standing. They are much more modern than the faux antique light poles they have on south broad.

I would have preferred they did absolutely nothing.

[1487]

Originally Posted by Larry King

I would have preferred they did absolutely nothing.

That ship has sailed and im not sure how these lights are ruining your life or anyone else's for that matter. They have virtually no negative impact on anything on north broad. Its like saying you wish they never built any building in the city you don't personally like. If projects dont move forward until there is universal praise for the aesthetics nothing would ever get built.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by 1487

That ship has sailed and im not sure how these lights are ruining your life or anyone else's for that matter. They have virtually no negative impact on anything on north broad. Its like saying you wish they never built any building in the city you don't personally like. If projects dont move forward until there is universal praise for the aesthetics nothing would ever get built.

The proof will be in the pudding. Let's see how they look once the project is done and after they've weathered for a bit. For the time being, I stand by my initial "yuck." One can do that and still have an open mind. I will be sold if fireworks shoot out of the top on holidays and any time one of our sports teams actually wins a game.

[MikeNigh]

Morris and Broad -

[Teakwood]

Originally Posted by 1487

That ship has sailed and im not sure how these lights are ruining your life or anyone else's for that matter. They have virtually no negative impact on anything on north broad. Its like saying you wish they never built any building in the city you don't personally like. If projects dont move forward until there is universal praise for the aesthetics nothing would ever get built.

Eh, there are plenty of projects that I have been less than enthusiastic about, but have no issues with overall, because I understand that it comes down to personal taste. I also understand that projects are often the best that can be done with certain constraints, most notably cost. However, this doesn't seem like the end result was reached because of budget constraints. It seems someone decided to be 'revolutionary', and spent a substantial amount to do so, without considering negative side effects. At some point during the process of deciding to do something new and 'revolutionary', you have to consider if others aren't doing it for a reason.

To me, this project does seem harmful. As I stated before, it seems much more oriented for cars than people. Each pole seems to be a huge flag notifying everyone of the concrete median. I don't even care about the materials or the look of them, which I admit could be cool in the right context, but they just seem way out of context to me. They take an important project such as revitalizing North Broad and (ever so slightly) limit how great it can be.

[Londonee]

Will they be lit during the day?

Chicago has lighting features like this on several of their main avenues in the Loop - they all seem to be done rather elegantly and feature nicely both day and night. This really shouldn't be that hard.

To me, the only way to get around them looking like odd, unfinished poles in the middle of the day is to have them illuminated.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by Teakwood

Eh, there are plenty of projects that I have been less than enthusiastic about, but have no issues with overall, because I understand that it comes down to personal taste. I also understand that projects are often the best that can be done with certain constraints, most notably cost. However, this doesn't seem like the end result was reached because of budget constraints. It seems someone decided to be 'revolutionary', and spent a substantial amount to do so, without considering negative side effects. At some point during the process of deciding to do something new and 'revolutionary', you have to consider if others aren't doing it for a reason.

To me, this project does seem harmful. As I stated before, it seems much more oriented for cars than people. Each pole seems to be a huge flag notifying everyone of the concrete median. I don't even care about the materials or the look of them, which I admit could be cool in the right context, but they just seem way out of context to me. They take an important project such as revitalizing North Broad and (ever so slightly) limit how great it can be.

I haven't done a thorough search, but I've been very surprised to see no mention at all, in various articles about the project, concerning aesthetics or whether there was any discussion or opportunity for input. There's a repeated line about how they were inspired by the old street lights on Broad. Other than the fact that they were supposedly in the median, that's just ludicrous.

Streetscape improvements are not like a private development, but are a matter of public concern. I recall years ago that sample street lights were installed in the CCD so folks could see how they looked and give their opinions. I'm rather sure that, had the public been given a similar opportunity, these would've been panned and revisions made to make them more contextually appropriate.

I too recall that the whole point of CCD street lights was to provide a more human scale and to ditch highway style street lights, which didn't provide enough lighting either. These may solve the light deficiency problem, but I agree that they harken back to such monstrosities. At least the penny-pinchers were trying to save money with fewer, taller lights. These cost a mint. I don't see how these beat the off the shelf sidewalk lighting already in place in the CCD.

Beauty matters. These are just another exhibit in the modern "art" scam that produces something quick and simple, markets it with high-sounding puffery, and sells it for a fortune. Trendy stuff doesn't stand the test of time too well.

[1487]

Originally Posted by Teakwood

Eh, there are plenty of projects that I have been less than enthusiastic about, but have no issues with overall, because I understand that it comes down to personal taste. I also understand that projects are often the best that can be done with certain constraints, most notably cost. However, this doesn't seem like the end result was reached because of budget constraints. It seems someone decided to be 'revolutionary', and spent a substantial amount to do so, without considering negative side effects. At some point during the process of deciding to do something new and 'revolutionary', you have to consider if others aren't doing it for a reason.

To me, this project does seem harmful. As I stated before, it seems much more oriented for cars than people. Each pole seems to be a huge flag notifying everyone of the concrete median. I don't even care about the materials or the look of them, which I admit could be cool in the right context, but they just seem way out of context to me. They take an important project such as revitalizing North Broad and (ever so slightly) limit how great it can be.

you are greatly exaggerating the impact of the poles. Hell, the guy funding the DL says they are a boon to north broad. Let me know when you can find a developer who is saying these lights will turn them away from a chance to build a profitable project on North Broad.

[1487]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

I haven't done a thorough search, but I've been very surprised to see no mention at all, in various articles about the project, concerning aesthetics or whether there was any discussion or opportunity for input. There's a repeated line about how they were inspired by the old street lights on Broad. Other than the fact that they were supposedly in the median, that's just ludicrous.

Streetscape improvements are not like a private development, but are a matter of public concern. I recall years ago that sample street lights were installed in the CCD so folks could see how they looked and give their opinions. I'm rather sure that, had the public been given a similar opportunity, these would've been panned and revisions made to make them more contextually appropriate.

I too recall that the whole point of CCD street lights was to provide a more human scale and to ditch highway style street lights, which didn't provide enough lighting either. These may solve the light deficiency problem, but I agree that they harken back to such monstrosities. At least the penny-pinchers were trying to save money with fewer, taller lights. These cost a mint. I don't see how these beat the off the shelf sidewalk lighting already in place in the CCD.

Beauty matters. These are just another exhibit in the modern "art" scam that produces something quick and simple, markets it with high-sounding puffery, and sells it for a fortune.

first of all it would be nice if people stop saying the 55 lights costs $9M. They don't. The money being spent is for the lights, the excavation, concrete work, permits, traffic control and the landscaping/concrete improvements. The lights might be 10% of the project cost- or less. The fact that much of the work was done at night made it even more expensive.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by 1487

first of all it would be nice if people stop saying the 55 lights costs $9M. They don't. The money being spent is for the lights, the excavation, concrete work, permits, traffic control and the landscaping/concrete improvements. The lights might be 10% of the project cost- or less. The fact that much of the work was done at night made it even more expensive.

...which makes me wonder why they didn't install LED versions of what's in the CCD along the sidewalks. It's not too hard to imagine that there was a financial reason that the old light poles were taken out of the median.

[Teakwood]

Originally Posted by 1487

you are greatly exaggerating the impact of the poles. Hell, the guy funding the DL says they are a boon to north broad. Let me know when you can find a developer who is saying these lights will turn them away from a chance to build a profitable project on North Broad.

The guy that just secured tax breaks from the city for his project is the best guy to get an unbiased opinion from?

And I'm not saying they will ruin North Broad by any means. I just see it as a huge missed opportunity. No one said that the poles cost 9M, just that they weren't done on the cheap either. This doesn't seem like a case of doing anything is better than nothing. North Broad will improve in spite of these, not because of these. A better design could have aided not hindered or been indifferent in impact.

Originally Posted by Londonee

Will they be lit during the day?

Chicago has lighting features like this on several of their main avenues in the Loop - they all seem to be done rather elegantly and feature nicely both day and night. This really shouldn't be that hard.

To me, the only way to get around them looking like odd, unfinished poles in the middle of the day is to have them illuminated.

I'm having trouble locating what you mean on Google Maps, but I'd love to see.

[br323206]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

...which makes me wonder why they didn't install LED versions of what's in the CCD along the sidewalks. It's not too hard to imagine that there was a financial reason that the old light poles were taken out of the median.

These aren't meant to light the sidewalk or the median. They are an art installation. There are still streetlights on each side that illuminate the street and sidewalk.

[Insoluble]

Eh, I don't get what all the fuss is about. From the pictures posted they don't look any worse than these things:

Photo from Philaphilia (butt-fugly public art of the week!)

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by br323206

These aren't meant to light the sidewalk or the median. They are an art installation. There are still streetlights on each side that illuminate the street and sidewalk.

If it's an art installation, there's even less to recommend them (cf. my commentary on modern art).

[Larry King]

Well that restaurant under construction on 13th and chancellor went down last night in a shady fire

Gotta wonder.. construction was moving incredibly slow at the site.

[Larry King]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

If it's an art installation, there's even less to recommend them (cf. my commentary on modern art).

Lol seriously

Who the hell designed them anyway? It looks like an engineer designed it.. what a waste of 9mm.. wonder who made money on this

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Teakwood

I'm having trouble locating what you mean on Google Maps, but I'd love to see.

Chicago is the American King of street furniture. Beautiful lamps, elegant flower beds, classic subway head houses. God, could we imagine if Broad Street resembled State Street, even 10%?

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8847...8i6656!6m1!1e1

The State St lights are those ethereal, almost plant-like installations in the bed. Hard to see there, but they are illuminated 24/7.

More comparatively Congress Parkway Lights - simple and elegant both day and night. LED color changes:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8755...8i6656!6m1!1e1

[PHL10]

I’ve never been to Chicago but State Street looks great – those subway entrances are awesome. I was exploring off of State street and within a block came across this much less “stately” Market East like corridor along with a third world looking El Station. Not dumping on Chicago but shedding light on our defeatist attitudes in the City at times.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8845...7i13312!8i6656

[Teakwood]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Chicago is the American King of street furniture. Beautiful lamps, elegant flower beds, classic subway head houses. God, could we imagine if Broad Street resembled State Street, even 10%?

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8847...8i6656!6m1!1e1

The State St lights are those ethereal, almost plant-like installations in the bed. Hard to see there, but they are illuminated 24/7.

More comparatively Congress Parkway Lights - simple and elegant both day and night. LED color changes:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8755...8i6656!6m1!1e1

Ah, yes. I did see the first one when I was there a couple of months ago. You're right, they are on during the day, and are glowing. Not exactly a comparison to this project, but a good example of tasteful artistic lighting. I'd love to see the city commission someone like Bruce Munro, who did an exhibit at Longwood Gardens a couple of years ago, to undertake a similar project in Philly.

The second one appears to be approximately 40 feet shorter than the ones that we are getting, and in a planter box, not a concrete median. Yet another way this project could improve.

Above just about everything else about visiting Chicago, what stood out for me was the quality and dearth of their modern public art. From Cloud Gate to Federal Plaza, their art is an asset, and a legitimate tourist attraction. We have... one of about 50 LOVE signs? (plus 1 at UPENN and 2 more in Southeastern PA) If the best argument for these light poles is that we have put up horrible things in the past, then we need to seriously re-evaluate the way modern public art is being approved.

[jjv007]

Much Ado About Nothing. These are street lights people, take it easy!