Did you grow up in and/or are you raising a family in urban multi-family housing?

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Yeah, SFH comes with a yard. That's a very big difference.

And in most of the sunbelt, your outdoor living season is significantly longer than it is in the upper Midwest.

The importance of one's interior square footage vs. outdoor living space is very proportional to the length/severity of one's winter.

The point I was making when I said high rise living is mostly suited for the Poor and the wealthy, is more indoor space is required in a highrise to offset the general lack of outdoor space.
This is my own personal preference/experience, but somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,800 sq ft (3 bed/2.5 bth) would be the minimum square footage i'd want in a highrise with 1 child. In a city like Chicago, that is probably $700K - 1.5M (plus high HOA fees) in many buildings. In Manhattan, probably nothing under $2M.
It can certainly be done, but for those families who have options, the lure of a yard and/or larger interior space spread across multiple floors is too great, and the VAST majority of Americans will opt for that.

It's great to plan ahead before one has kids, but as Mike Tyson said "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the fact"

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Yeah, SFH comes with a yard. That's a very big difference.

And in most of the sunbelt, your outdoor living season is significantly longer than it is in the upper Midwest.

My cousin and her family of 4 live in 1,200 SF bungalow in LA (echo park). But they have have a decently-sized yard that more than offsets that for her because she says they're out there whenever the weather allows (which is a lot in sunny Socal). She's told me that it'd be a lot more challenging for them to live in a house that small if they ever moved back to chicagoland.

The importance of one's interior square footage vs. outdoor living space is very proportional to the length/severity of one's winter.

Those sunbelt yards can be quite small (and it's often too hot outside to use them anyway):
https://www.google.com/maps/place/La...4d-115.1398296


But having a garage probably makes a big difference in terms of places to store shit.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I don't think outdoor space matters when children are young. Few parents let their kids roam free, so I don't see the difference. If we had a giant backyard, instead of no backyard, it wouldn't change a thing for us right now, because we would never let a 3-yo roam alone outside, obviously. We have massive outdoor space right outside, but parkland, and it isn't really harder crossing the street to said parkland than it is going to a backyard. At this age you have to accompany the child no matter the living circumstances.

Agreed.The counterargument to that is that the park almost across the street (Millenium Park) is often chock-full of tourists. On the other hand, Maggie Daley Park is one of the better playgrounds in the city.

Also, I will never get why people think that cheap(er) RE, without any context, is a "deal". A "deal" in RE is one that provides a good return. Detroit is a much worse deal than SF, as Detroit has had poor returns and SF has had fantastic returns. Chicago actually has the worst RE returns of any major U.S. market per the Case Schiller index, so that's factored into the pricing. That said, I agree that the pandemic is likely providing good deals in commercial-type areas across the U.S. like the Loop, because they have been especially hit hard, and the downturn is likely temporary. Probably the ideal time to buy in such a neighborhood, but not the best time to buy in general, unless you have to, whether city or suburb, because no one knows where this is all headed.

Sure if you see your home as an investment vehicle, it's not necessarily such a deal. But outside of a few markets, housing is not the highest-yielding investment anyway for an owner (as opposed to someone renting it out or flipping places). For people outside the "investor class," a "deal" is a nice place to live that doesn't cost too much.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

The point I was making when I said high rise living is mostly suited for the Poor and the wealthy, is more indoor space is required in a highrise to offset the general lack of outdoor space.
This is my own personal preference/experience, but somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,800 sq ft (3 bed/2.5 bth) would be the minimum square footage i'd want in a highrise with 1 child. In a city like Chicago, that is probably $700K - 1.5M (plus high HOA fees) in many buildings. In Manhattan, probably nothing under $2M.
It can certainly be done, but for those families who have options, the lure of a yard and/or larger interior space spread across multiple floors is too great, and the VAST majority of Americans will opt for that.

It's great to plan ahead before one has kids, but as Mike Tyson said "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the fact"

1800 sqft sounds really big to me, but people have different needs. Like I said, we currently live in a 650 SF apartment and it's plenty big for us.

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

Sure if you see your home as an investment vehicle, it's not necessarily such a deal. But outside of a few markets, housing is not the highest-yielding investment anyway for an owner (as opposed to someone renting it out or flipping places). For people outside the "investor class," a "deal" is a nice place to live that doesn't cost too much.

100% agree with you here.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

For people outside the "investor class," a "deal" is a nice place to live that doesn't cost too much.

Exactly.

For middle class families like mine, a good housing deal is a large enough home to be comfortable in, in a nice area that you want to live in, that you can actually afford.

For us regular old people, it's about barriers to entry, or lack thereof.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Exactly.

For middle class families a good housing deal is a large enough home to be comfortable in, in a nice area that you want to live in, that you can actually afford.

For us regular old people, it's about barriers to entry, or lack thereof.

Yeah, we bought our condo last year (2BD in Pilsen/University Vilage area) without a huge expectation of appreciation. The mortgage+taxes are lower, on a monthly basis, than renting a similar unit and the maintenance needs are pretty limited.

Even if we sell it for what we paid originally we still walk away with some equity if/when we move out, almost certainly more than the measly security deposit you walk away with from a rental.

My only regret is settling for a unit without a balcony, but that meant we could get a light-filled corner unit with a good layout instead of the shitty soft-loft, no-privacy layouts that other units have. We also don't have deeded parking (have to rent parking from the Association) but that seems to be the new norm in many buildings anyway with the advent of TOD.

[JManc]

Unless you plan on staying in your home 10+ years, buying something without some market appreciation potential in mind makes no sense. Even if your made goal is to find something affordable and practical.

[Crawford]

Another thing to consider is that higher end urban buildings have common amenities, reducing the need for private space.

Many (most?) larger or newer construction buildings in NYC have children's playrooms. Certainly in family-oriented neighborhoods, it's an expected amenity. Often these are indoors/outdoors spaces, on a terrace or rooftop. Many also have shared offices, dining/party rooms, man-caves, rehearsal rooms, screening rooms, rooftop terraces, wine cellars, storage rooms, etc. Even bowling alleys, pet spas and driving ranges aren't rare. And obviously gyms. So you don't need the same space as in suburbia.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by JManc

Unless you plan on staying in your home 10+ years,

I plan to be where I'm at until nursing home or coffin, whichever comes first.

For me it's 100% about owning a nice home in a nice urban neighborhood to raise a family in for the long haul.

Any other benefits that may come to pass are gravy.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by mhays

I don't. I have a balcony but only use it to check the weather occasionally. It's the kind of balcony that sticks out into the wind and can be seen from many other units.

So I'm in public or at home, one or the other.

I've a balcony too, off the master bedroom. But it's really a modern version of a fire escape--continuous around the interior courtyard of the building and leading to a stairwell providing emergency exit. Since the unit has two floors, the fire code requires an exit on each floor so that's what they did. I can go out on it if I want, but here in the city a lot of dirt and grime accumulates out there and I don't want to track it in so I rarely do. Incidentally, the pool, spa and open space seen is actually on the third floor of the building. It's a mixed use building so below this level are offices and stores on the ground floor. The residential part of the building starts on the third floor as seen here.

You can see what I'm talking about in this photo above the pool:


https://www.prweb.com/releases/2014/...eb11523852.htm

[mhays]

So any neighbor can put his eyes up to your window?

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by mhays

So any neighbor can put his eyes up to your window?

In theory--but really other than for emergencies or approved purposes such as moving furniture to the lower level, walking around on the balcony to another unit is banned by the HOA and the 24/7 security guards sit in that glass structure next to the pool where they can see all the balconies. Over the years--going on 40 now--I've only had anyone outside my glass door (it's a sliding door, not a window) a couple of times and always, it turned out, to do legitimate activities such as building maintenance or moving in a large piece of furniture. But whenever I've wondered what the heck someone was doing out there I've called security and they check it out. Naturally, I do close my window coverings at night when I'm sleeping.

After all, anybody with ground floor windows has the same issue except they don't really have anybody to call to find out who's out there and why except the police. And anybody would have access to a ground floor window. Only a fellow building resident has access to the balcony in front of my bedroom.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

I plan to be where I'm at until nursing home or coffin, whichever comes first.

For me it's 100% about owning a nice home in a nice urban neighborhood to raise a family in for the long haul.

Any other benefits that may come to pass are gravy.

That's how we are but I recall you buying in a solid neighborhood and your flat specially was a sound investment as it was recently extensively remodeled. A sign the developer saw long term potential in your area.

Our neighborhood is known for excellent schools and stable socioeconomics which means the neighbors won't be parking cars in the yard anytime soon.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by JManc

That's how we are but I recall you buying in a solid neighborhood and your flat specially was a sound investment as it was recently extensively remodeled. A sign the developer saw long term potential in your area.

Yeah, I feel like we made a solid decision to settle down where we did in Lincoln Square. Yes, our 3-flat was gut-rehabbed in 2001, so we have the exterior masonry shell of a vintage 100 year old brick chicago 3-flat, but with 19 year old plumbing, electrical, and HVAC systems (oh how I adore you central A/C!)

We also kinda took advantage of a couple going through a messy divorce in the fall market (fall is typically a tough time to move family-size real estate in chicago because people with kids generally don't like to move after the school year starts).

As our real estate agent told us after our closing "you guys were really smart to jump on this when you did. I could sell this property all day long for $30K higher in the spring market, so you're already up in equity on day one."

Now, our condo is NOT going to go up 100% in value over the next 10 years, so crawford would probably see it as a really bad investment or something, but i never really saw it as an investment in that way; more as an "investment" in the quality of life for our family, which counts for a whole hell of a lot IMO, even if the bean counters can't process that.

We just wanted a nice, comfortable family-sized home in a great city neighborhood that WE could actually afford to own as middle class heros.

And I found my middle class shangri-la in chicago.


But no, I'm never gonna be able to cash out on my duplex-down 3-flat condo on the far northside of chicago and buy my own private jet someday

i still have hope that we'll somehow manage to find a way to get by none-the-less.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

I think shit accumulates up to capacity no matter how big a place you have .

Man, did that fact of life ever become apparent this morning when my wife got the hot idea to "go through" the closet under the stairs (a typical under-the-stairs closet that's 3' wide and about 8' deep; perfect for cramming shit into and then forgetting about forever).

As the closet regurgitated its contents all over our basement family room, I realized, "we haven't touched most of this stuff since we shoved it all in there the day we moved in nearly 3 years ago".







Whether you live in 1K SF, 2K SF, 3K SF, 4K SF , etc., you will fill it up.

Having less space often just means you get to be more efficient about getting rid of crap that you almost never use.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Man, did this fact of life ever become apparent this morning when my wife got the hot idea to "go through" the closet under the stairs (a typical under-the-stairs closet that's 3' wide and about 8' deep; perfect for cramming shit into and then forgetting about forever).

As the closet regurgitated its contents all over our basement family room, I realized, "we haven't touched most of this stuff since we shoved it all in there the day we moved in nearly 3 years ago".







Whether you live in 1K SF, 2K SF, 3K SF, 4K SF , etc., you will fill it up.

Having less space often just means you get to be more efficient about getting rid of crap that you almost never use.

That little girl was crammed in there for the last 3 years? Seems surprisingly healthy given those circumstances!

[Steely Dan]

^ yeah, we completely spaced the fact that we had a 3rd kid!

A ringing endorsement for why having less space is more.

[Pedestrian]

So your photo makes me wonder why the place under my stairs is also full in spite of the fact I have no kids and no "kid stuff". I even rent a roughly 4'x6' storage space in the building from the HOA and it's packed full too--and still no "kid stuff".

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

So your photo makes me wonder why the place under my stairs is also full in spite of the fact I have no kids and no "kid stuff". I even rent a roughly 4'x6' storage space in the building from the HOA and it's packed full too--and still no "kid stuff".

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