Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Montreal is the beating heart of Canadian bilingualism (not just the official version) and multiculturalism. .

True for the latter, not so true for the former.

While some might pine for Montreal to fully reflect and embody Canadian Trudeauist multiculturalism, in spite of those pressures it still doesn't fully play out that way there. For better or for worse.

The beating heart of Canadian multiculturalism is clearly Toronto (it might actually also play that role globally, in fact, at least in a symbolic way), with second place clearly going to Vancouver.

Those are the places where people have embraced and are living the dream. Montreal is more like a frontline outpost of it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

He may not like it but Canada is a country and Quebec is a part of it. Saying that Quebec's cultural values are distinct from Canada's is like saying that France's cultural values are distinct from Europe's. Somewhat nonsensical, and willfully ignorant of facts on the ground.

Note that that quote isn't from me, but from Simon Jolin-Barrette.

Still, while I don't think Quebec compared to the other provinces is Kandahar vs. Rio de Janeiro, the differences do go beyond banalities like the colour of margarine.

Stuff like Bill 21 (to name just one huge, current example) does come from somewhere.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by lio45

Actually the last few weeks have been amazing for me (stars particularly aligning my way on a few things). The election of a professional, presidential individual to the top job in a country where I have a good chunk of my assets was merely the icing on the cake!

Most people who aren't Trump superfans would deny the charge of MAGAhood more convincingly than with "well at least my stocks went up" or your favorite "i can't be racist if I'm for abortion!"

[gunnar777]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Interview with French (France) magazine Marianne featuring Quebec Minister of Justice Simon-Jolin Barrette. (He is our de facto Minister of Identity, TBQH.)

https://www.marianne.net/monde/ameri...ngue-francaise

Quote (my translation):

Our cultural values are distinct from Canada's, and we intend to ensure, via our body of laws, that our way of life in Quebec and the Québécois identity are respected.

Barf. Jolin-Barrette is a massive sofa-masturbator incel.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by dleung

Most people who aren't Trump superfans would deny the charge of MAGAhood more convincingly than with "well at least my stocks went up" or your favorite "i can't be racist if I'm for abortion!"

I find I nowadays am not bothered by the completely-disconnected-from-reality "charges" that unhinged participants sometimes throw with a straight face at me and others SSPers like me who don't adhere to their crazy views.

If I can shrug off being apparently a full-fledged racist according to some, I sure can also shrug off being called a Trump Supporter, a Trudeau Supporter, a Kenney supporter, etc.

I've been called equally bad things by less irrelevant people than you... so you're not even on my radar here, sorry. I've pointed out reality to a few times, if you don't want to accept it, well, okay, I can't realistically do much more. You also are on record doubting I'm actually in the real estate business... which IMO totally dwarfs your charge of MAGAhood, i.e. if you genuinely believe lio45 is a guy on welfare who likes to pretend he owns real estate on this architecture/urban affairs online forum, then while at it you may as well believe lio45 is a guy on welfare who's a Rabid Trump Supporter, it's approximately the same level of disconnection from reality at that point.

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by lio45

I've been called equally bad things by less irrelevant people than you... so you're not even on my radar here, sorry.

Usually people don't spend several paragraphs responding to someone who isn't on their radar...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by gunnar777

Barf. Jolin-Barrette is a massive sofa-masturbator incel.

Not sure what his personal life has to do with anything, but I think he's married with kids.

More to the point, while I appreciate that you don't like him, the truth is you and I are banging on keyboards anonymously (note the self-deprecation here) whereas he is wielding real power. This interview with a fairly major French magazine also means his views might be heard by the likes of Emmanuel Macron, Alain Finkielkraut, Bernard Henri-Lévy, Michel Onfray, etc.

Which is more than you can say for any of us.

[Marshsparrow]

Emmanuel Macron gives a rats ass what is happening in Quebec... the amount of time and energy wasted on the Quebec file is nauseating. We get it already - be different, do whatever you want to protect yourselves - but then don't get all pissy when other jurisdictions want to do the same.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

Emmanuel Macron gives a rats ass what is happening in Quebec... .

You're definitely correct that it's very low on his list concerns.

Yet he still made this call a month ago today:

https://ipolitics.ca/2020/11/03/fren...t-caricatures/

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

be different, do whatever you want to protect yourselves - but then don't get all pissy when other jurisdictions want to do the same.

When exactly has Quebec criticized other jurisdictions for "protecting themselves"?

And which jurisdiction outside Quebec needs "protection" from Quebec?

Downtown Ottawa streets? From Gatineau STO passengers getting off buses and walking to work?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

... the amount of time and energy wasted on the Quebec file is nauseating. We get it already .

So why are you here?

You are not obliged to partake in this thread or even on this forum.

More than half the threads on here don't interest me, so what do I do? I don't go on them!

I don't parachute into them and bitch that they exist.

Could it be that you've just outed yourself as someone who is just generally annoyed by our very existence, and gets all irate when something like this thread reminds you of it?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

Emmanuel Macron gives a rats ass what is happening in Quebec... the amount of time and energy wasted on the Quebec file is nauseating. We get it already - be different, do whatever you want to protect yourselves - but then don't get all pissy when other jurisdictions want to do the same.

Have you got some specific examples in mind?

[Martin Mtl]

I really hate Simon Jodoin-Barette. He's a xenophobic nationalist who has zero comprehension of the dynamic of Montreal; he speaks for provincial and suburban Quebeckers who mostly hate Montreal as well.

The reborn phobia of English in the Quebec media and political sphere is the result of very militant groups making their fearful voices heard.

It's completely normal to hear a lot of English in downtown Montreal, where there are two English universities and the biggest CEGEP in the province, which happens to be English. That's what ? 100,000 English students living and studying in downtown ? And then there are the American tourists, and of course anglo Montrealers. We hear English in Amsterdam, Berlin... why would it be a problem in Montreal which always have been a de facto bilingual city, if not on paper, then in the streets ?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

I really hate Simon Jodoin-Barette. He's a xenophobic nationalist who has zero comprehension of the dynamic of Montreal; he speaks for provincial and suburban Quebeckers who mostly hate Montreal as well.

The reborn phobia of English in the Quebec media and political sphere is the result of very militant groups making their fearful voices heard.

It's completely normal to hear a lot of English in downtown Montreal, where there are two English universities and the biggest CEGEP in the province, which happens to be English. That's what ? 100,000 English students living and studying in downtown ? And then there are the American tourists, and of course anglo Montrealers. We hear English in Amsterdam, Berlin... why would it be a problem in Montreal which always have been a de facto bilingual city, if not on paper, then in the streets ?

Legitimate views.

Though in the interest of accuracy, SJB is not just this bad dude from Roberval trying to impose Québec profond values on Montreal. He's a life long resident of the south shore suburbs, did most of his studies in the city and also worked for the Ville de Montréal itself and law offices in the city.

It's not this foreign place to him, that he'd like to remake in the image of his beloved hometown of Saint-Glinglin.

Also, the current renaissance of demands for a greater push of French is largely being driven by francophone Montrealers. Not all of them of course, but quite a few of them.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

I really hate Simon Jodoin-Barette. He's a xenophobic nationalist who has zero comprehension of the dynamic of Montreal; he speaks for provincial and suburban Quebeckers who mostly hate Montreal as well.

The reborn phobia of English in the Quebec media and political sphere is the result of very militant groups making their fearful voices heard.

It's completely normal to hear a lot of English in downtown Montreal, where there are two English universities and the biggest CEGEP in the province, which happens to be English. That's what ? 100,000 English students living and studying in downtown ? And then there are the American tourists, and of course anglo Montrealers. We hear English in Amsterdam, Berlin... why would it be a problem in Montreal which always have been a de facto bilingual city, if not on paper, then in the streets ?

As has been mentioned; square peg, round hole (hammers involved). To date, I haven't seen anything that explains the apparent (alleged?) renewed advance of English on the Island, although I suspect that one could look to the Montreal economy of the last 5-10 years or so for an explanation. Given the vast sums of money that Quebec spends attracting and integrating immigrants, I'd have doubts that immigration is the issue, but I could be mistaken.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

As has been mentioned; square peg, round hole (hammers involved). To date, I haven't seen anything that explains the apparent (alleged?) renewed advance of English on the Island, although I suspect that one could look to the Montreal economy of the last 5-10 years or so for an explanation.

Supposedly MTL has been overtaken by so many youths speaking English that that is the real pandemic that must be dealt with.

There's been more recent articles but this NYTimes piece summarizes some of it nicely:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/05/w...sh-divide.html

Originally Posted by NYTimes

Still, if lingering divisions remain, they appear to be predominantly along generational lines.
...
I live on Plateau-Mont-Royal, a predominantly Francophone neighborhood in the east of Montreal. Twentysomething Francophone shopkeepers answer me in fluent English when I address them in French, and residents of all linguistic persuasions seem more obsessed by their search for the perfect latte than whether you order it in the language of Shakespeare or Molière.
...
Today’s younger generation, he said, had discarded the hang-ups of their parents.

“There is a shift in the younger generation,” he said. “In my case, English meant Hollywood, it was film, it was ‘Titanic,’ so I wanted to speak English as quickly as I could.”
...
Today, gaggles of French, English, Chinese and Indian students sit hunched over computers at cafes, chatting on Facebook or writing on Twitter.

But — a Berlin Wall of the mind lingers.

While the younger generation of Anglophone residents will confidently pronounce “St.-Laurent,” some of their parents stubbornly cling to “St. Lawrence.”

So yeah, older folks are big mad at the kids, basically.

[MonctonRad]

There is a real dichotomy here.

I get that most Quebecers hors Montreal feel threatened by creeping anglicization. Many of them are either unilingual or weakly bilingual. They want Montreal to reflect and represent them. It is in their own interest to see the metropole retain it's francophone character.

There is also the segment of older francophone nationalists who still remember the Montreal of the 1960s and the fat English female clerks at the Bay who refused to serve them in French. The oversized chips on these nationalists shoulders will still be there when they are put in their coffins and buried.

But in the city itself, multiculturalism is becoming more predominant, and even if most immigrant newcomers come from French speaking nations, they tend to be more worldly and less fearful of anglophone North America than your typical Saguenean. Many Montrealais (at least outside the east end) have ambitions for their city to achieve it's full potential and, even if they could care less about Montreal's stature within Canada, they are fully cognizant of the fact that they are surrounded by 350 million anglophone North Americans and that Montreal will have to function at least partially in English to make it's voice heard.

I realize that many Quebecois resent this reality, but facts are facts.

[esquire]

^ I wonder if Quebec is just becoming a little more self confident? In many European countries and in particular Scandinavia, it seems that many younger people are fluent English speakers. There seems to a certain self-assuredness where people don't consider English fluency to be a threat to the Swedish language or culture or what have you (although I'm sure some disagree).

Maybe Quebec is at the point where it is accepted that youth speaking English on the streets of Montreal is not a threat to the supremacy of the French language?

[Acajack]

We now interrupt this regularly-scheduled SSP Canada classic, "You Guys Are Just Living in the Past, Get With the Program"...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ I wonder if Quebec is just becoming a little more self confident? In many European countries and in particular Scandinavia, it seems that many younger people are fluent English speakers. There seems to a certain self-assuredness where people don't consider English fluency to be a threat to the Swedish language or culture or what have you (although I'm sure some disagree).

I don't think there was ever much of a sense of English being a threat for the local language in any of the Nordics, or in other high English proficiency places like the Netherlands.