[Halifax] St. Joseph's Square (5450 Kaye) | 32 m | 9 fl | Completed

[halifaxboyns]

As a planner, this disappoints me - but yet doesn't surprise me. It almost seems like what should happen for the Hydrostone is that HRM undertake something like HbD (or along the lines) and do a bunch of design charettes with local residents to establish in policy and zoning defined rules. This way, there would be no argument. If people didn't like it, they could speak up at the public hearing and if council voted to approve things - well, you had your say but lost. That was the problem when the West LRT was being designed and the residents around the Westbrook station were opposing tall buildings.

Eventually they did a design charette with residents and came up with a plan that allowed some tall buildings but with 'medium' scale in between to reduce effects on low density. Plus it gave people some certainty. That would be my suggestion - do something like that for the hydrostone, since there is so much interest in the area. This way, no arguing about height. Height would be established - it would be about other issues like traffic (which I dare any resident to try to say they are experts on).

[eastcoastal]

I don't think it looks any worse at the reduced height. Then again, I wasn't a big fan of the original design. It has some positives with the podium design - it's the style I have a problem with. I just think it could have had more attention paid to finishes.

Planning-wise, I couldn't say what difference the impact of the change in number of units would have. Could be positive, could be negative. I'll leave that to others to speculate on.

I am happy to see something go forward there. And I think the ground floor retail/commercial space could really add to the Hydrostone area and make it a strong destination. Prior to the Gardenstone building, with Starbucks, it was only a block of interesting retail on a small park, with not a hell of a lot of continuity. Glad to see a little critical mass building here.

[Jonovision]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

As a planner, this disappoints me - but yet doesn't surprise me. It almost seems like what should happen for the Hydrostone is that HRM undertake something like HbD (or along the lines) and do a bunch of design charettes with local residents to establish in policy and zoning defined rules. This way, there would be no argument. If people didn't like it, they could speak up at the public hearing and if council voted to approve things - well, you had your say but lost.

This is actually about to happen. HRM is getting ready to launch the HRM Green Print. It is the next step in HRM By Design. And it is exactly what you were describing except it will entail the entire regional centre (peninsula and Dartmouth within the circumferential).

It would be interesting to survey the neighbourhood and all the people who were up in arms. My question to all of them would be to tell the number of stories on a number of buildings around town. Balance their perception of the buildings versus their actual heights. I'd be willing to bet it would make for some very strong arguments in favour of the slightly taller versions of buildings. I'm thinking use buildings like The Lexington, The Welsford, Gladstone, Armoury Square, Quinpool Towers.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Jonovision

This is actually about to happen. HRM is getting ready to launch the HRM Green Print. It is the next step in HRM By Design. And it is exactly what you were describing except it will entail the entire regional centre (peninsula and Dartmouth within the circumferential).

It would be interesting to survey the neighbourhood and all the people who were up in arms. My question to all of them would be to tell the number of stories on a number of buildings around town. Balance their perception of the buildings versus their actual heights. I'd be willing to bet it would make for some very strong arguments in favour of the slightly taller versions of buildings. I'm thinking use buildings like The Lexington, The Welsford, Gladstone, Armoury Square, Quinpool Towers.

I like your idea of using positive examples such as The Lexington, The Welsford, Gladstone, Armoury Square, but I am not sure that Quinpool Towers should be used. How about using an entire urban neighbourhood such as Spring Garden Road as an example. I think most people would agree that this is an example of a successful, densely populated, urban neighbourhoood.

[Jonovision]

My aim wasn't exactly to use any specific type of building aside from something that is of some height. I just want to find out how tall people think these buildings are as they walk or drive by them everyday? And how that perception affects the way they fight against these types of development.

For example. Does someone who is fighting to make these buildings smaller walk past The Welsford and think its 10 stories or do they think its 25 or can they even tell you? It's all about perception, not the physical height of a building. Do people notice the difference in height between The Lexington, Armoury Square and the other apartment buildings on Cunard Street as they walk along or do they just recognize them as large buildings?

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Jonovision

My aim wasn't exactly to use any specific type of building aside from something that is of some height. I just want to find out how tall people think these buildings are as they walk or drive by them everyday? And how that perception affects the way they fight against these types of development.

For example. Does someone who is fighting to make these buildings smaller walk past The Welsford and think its 10 stories or do they think its 25 or can they even tell you? It's all about perception, not the physical height of a building. Do people notice the difference in height between The Lexington, Armoury Square and the other apartment buildings on Cunard Street as they walk along or do they just recognize them as large buildings?

That's great and exactly what people need to start thinking about. Good design can make you think differently about the perception of a building. When someone hears 10 stories; they shouldn't be thinking about fenwick. They should be thinking about a building that is 10 stories and how they can fit in.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

When someone hears 10 stories; they shouldn't be thinking about fenwick.

I suspect this is frequently what happens in Halifax because there is a tendency to talk about development in vague and polarized terms -- heritage vs. new development, highrise vs. lowrise. Often the two are even conflated and we get two pigeonholes for all buildings: "modern ugly highrise" or "beautiful heritage lowrise". In reality of course a given development might be a blend of old and new and fall anywhere within a large range of heights. Old buildings can be tall or short, ugly or attractive.

Some HRM planning exercises seem to have done a reasonable job of avoiding the silly polarized view by talking about how we need to accommodate more density and by presenting alternatives. Building design follows from there and can be adapted to requirements. I wish we'd see more of this kind of analysis and rationale, particularly from the media. The "development vs. heritage" debate is I guess easy to write about and sounds dramatic but it is not helpful.

[Dmajackson]

Two years after the demolition of the church and a few changes to the proposal the development agreement for this site is finally prepared and ready to be voted on;

Case 01325 - St. Joseph's Development Agreement

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Dmajackson

Two years after the demolition of the church and a few changes to the proposal the development agreement for this site is finally prepared and ready to be voted on;

Case 01325 - St. Joseph's Development Agreement

Praise the lord!

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Dmajackson

Two years after the demolition of the church and a few changes to the proposal the development agreement for this site is finally prepared and ready to be voted on;

Case 01325 - St. Joseph's Development Agreement

This is a great looking development. There are more details and renderings here - http://www.halifax.ca/planning/Case01325Details.html . I think the Halifax peninsula need about another 100 similar developments (along with LRT or better BRT).

I hope that the stonework at the bottom of the tower will be well-done. It would be a travesty if it is real stone and turns out looking like a cheap imitation (it has happened before).

[halifaxboyns]

I'm still a little disappointed about being cut down from 11 to 9 stories...honest, what is the real difference? Not very much at all.

That being said, if approving a 9 storey building can help improve the community context for the next development and as Jono points out, an HbD exercise is forthcoming. If this means it takes a few more years to get the area built up, I'm prepare to wait if it means that in the end, we get bigger and higher density.

[Keith P.]

Blumenthal torpedoed the North End Business Improvement District at council today and he could still torpedo this if he chooses. He seems to think of himself as Mayor if his district and somehow convinces his fellow Komedy Kouncil members to support him. He is like the godfather of the north end. Beware.

[someone123]

Have they already had the public hearing? I guess the next vote would be for the DA at council, in which case it could just be appealed to the URB, which would almost certainly approve it. My guess is the developer is willing to see this through the appeals.

I am not sure what to think about the Hydrostone thing since there wasn't much information about the vote. Were Hydrostone businesses opposed? If they were then eliminating the area from the BID seems reasonable -- it doesn't make sense to have a small area that can be forced into a BID simply because the majority votes in favour. If they were in favour of the BID and Blumenthal vetoed it based on his expert opinion of the area, well...

Either way Blumenthal is part of the reason why a smaller council would be great, assuming he's eliminated from it. He's more or less the canonical bad HRM councillor.

[halifaxboyns]

This will be dealt with solely at Peninsula Community Council: Sloane, Watts, Blumenthal and Uteck. Thank god for the URB.

That being said - the major part of what Blumenthal has been saying in the media was the height and the last article that was posted where he talked about it; he seemed to be okay with it now that the height has come down. I don't know what his reasons for the business district, but he's come across as mainly appeased, at least I think. We'll see...

[someone123]

It's PCC for sure? I remember at one point council implemented a policy where developments over size (dollar value? not sure how they calculate it) had to be brought to regional council. One of the reasons for the policy was that 2 votes at the PCC prevented the Alexander tower, then 27 storeys, from even going to public consultation (!).

I don't remember what the cutoff is and this development could certainly be below it since it's not very large.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

I am not sure what to think about the Hydrostone thing since there wasn't much information about the vote. Were Hydrostone businesses opposed? If they were then eliminating the area from the BID seems reasonable -- it doesn't make sense to have a small area that can be forced into a BID simply because the majority votes in favour. If they were in favour of the BID and Blumenthal vetoed it based on his expert opinion of the area, well...

From what I heard the businesses there, who are all tenants, voted in favor. There is apparently one property owner for most of the Hydrostone commercial strip, and they got to Blumenthal and persuaded him to go against it. The overall vote of the businesses was strongly in favor but Blumenthal ignored that. Shameful.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

From what I heard the businesses there, who are all tenants, voted in favor. There is apparently one property owner for most of the Hydrostone commercial strip, and they got to Blumenthal and persuaded him to go against it. The overall vote of the businesses was strongly in favor but Blumenthal ignored that. Shameful.

I can't wait to vote against this guy in the next mun elections. He is always on the wrong side of the issues for this district.

[halifaxboyns]

1st reading was given tonight - public hearing in 2 weeks being held as a joint public hearing with Regional Council. THANK GOD! If this had gone to just peninsula council, I doubt it would've passed. And even if only the policy amendments go to regional council - peninsula council would be hard pressed not to approve the DA if the policy is amended.

[Jstaleness]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

1st reading was given tonight - public hearing in 2 weeks being held as a joint public hearing with Regional Council. THANK GOD! If this had gone to just peninsula council, I doubt it would've passed. And even if only the policy amendments go to regional council - peninsula council would be hard pressed not to approve the DA if the policy is amended.

It's been more than 2 weeks. Did the public hearing take place?

[Dmajackson]

According to the HRM Calender this proposal will be approved (or rejected) on September 27th at Regional Council.

Draft Development Agreement