The Climate Change Discussion Thread

[240glt]

^^ I am unsure. If the charging systems are not universal then I could see problems down the road for sure.

^ Yes we noticed quite a number of charging stations along out trip, they're definitely adding a lot of stations. I was surprised to see charging stations in places like Blue River, Clearwater and "coming soon" stations in 100 Mile House and Barriere. There are three separate charging locations in Nelson alone.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by 240glt

^^ I am unsure. If the charging systems are not universal then I could see problems down the road for sure.

^ Yes we noticed quite a number of charging stations along out trip, they're definitely adding a lot of stations. I was surprised to see charging stations in places like Blue River, Clearwater and "coming soon" stations in 100 Mile House and Barriere. There are three separate charging locations in Nelson alone.

I drive a Tesla so I'm well aware of all of the various charging "standards". Tesla's own standard dominates, it's the simplest, the fastest, and the most plentiful. As long as they continue to sell the most vehicles, that lead will only increase. Things could look different in the next 5 years.

[Truenorth00]

I wish Ionity came to North America. They are actually building a charging network that rivals Tesla's.

Ultimately though, the biggest charging gaps are still multi-unit and en route. I still can't believe that the Ontario government signed a contract to rebuild all the service centres and effectively excluded fast charging operators. Unbelievable.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Are they far ahead in EV charging infrastructure, or Tesla charging infrastructure (or both)? AFAIK compatibility is a looming and growing issue?

Originally Posted by 240glt

^^ I am unsure. If the charging systems are not universal then I could see problems down the road for sure.

Tesla is the Apple of cars. They've insisted on using their own standard. And to be honest, given the state of charging when they started building chargers, it was entirely warranted.

The main issue is that the rest of the OEMs never settled on a single standard. There's two main types: CHAdeMO (mostly Japanese OEMs) and CCS (mostly German and US OEMs). Europe imposed CCS Type 2 as a universal standard (stations must accommodate this standard but doesn't prohibit other standards also being used). It's unfortunate we can't just follow suit. This CCS Type 1 as recommended by the SAE is gaining traction.

It's as bad as Blu Ray vs. HD-DVD. I wish governments would simply put their foot down and say they're going with the SAE recommendation for publicly funded infrastructure.

[milomilo]

Pretty tough for the government. Whatever standard they pick is guaranteed to be the wrong one.

[Truenorth00]

As far as easy wins, I'll keep harping on the lack of support to electrify Canada Post. Logistics operators around the world get this. DHL/Deutsche Post bought an electric delivery van maker and is working on electrifying 70 000 delivery vehicles:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/StreetScooter

They've become a major OEM producing 20 000 vehicles per year:

https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/last-...Arrival&curl=1

In the UK, Royal Mail is planning to go fully electric and is working with a company that designed fully electric delivery vehicles for them:

https://www.banburyguardian.co.uk/ne...mail-1-8117243

The striking look of them has made them an internet sensation in the UK. But most importantly, Royal Mail says they're more productive, substantially cheaper to operate, and drivers love them.

UPS and FedEx are both buying Tesla Semis and electric delivery vans. UPS is buying the same cute Arrival Vans as Royal Mail.

https://www.businessinsider.com/comp...a-semi-2017-12

https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/9/17...london-arrival

Here's FedEx with a 1000 vehicle order:

https://about.van.fedex.com/newsroom...tric-vehicles/

Meanwhile, Canada Post trialled electric delivery vehicles in 2012. And then did nothing after. All of Canada Post's delivery and semi fleet could be electrified for $2-3 billion. And would provide a larger return on emissions cuts than anything else the federal government could do. Over 5-7 years, a drop in the federal budget.

My annoyance is that this kind of common sense investment is not made. Because token nonsense like EV subsidies gets prioritized.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Pretty tough for the government. Whatever standard they pick is guaranteed to be the wrong one.

Disagree. Can never go wrong picking the one recommended by the standards making bodies.

SAE = Society of Automotive Engineers

Europe had the same issue. They just put their foot down. Companies like Tesla bitched about it. But complied in the end.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Disagree. Can never go wrong picking the one recommended by the standards making bodies.

SAE = Society of Automotive Engineers

Europe had the same issue. They just put their foot down. Companies like Tesla bitched about it. But complied in the end.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

As far as easy wins, I'll keep harping on the lack of support to electrify Canada Post. Logistics operators around the world get this. DHL/Deutsche Post bought an electric delivery van maker and is working on electrifying 70 000 delivery vehicles:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/StreetScooter

They've become a major OEM producing 20 000 vehicles per year:

https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/last-...Arrival&curl=1

In the UK, Royal Mail is planning to go fully electric and is working with a company that designed fully electric delivery vehicles for them:

https://www.banburyguardian.co.uk/ne...mail-1-8117243

The striking look of them has made them an internet sensation in the UK. But most importantly, Royal Mail says they're more productive, substantially cheaper to operate, and drivers love them.

UPS and FedEx are both buying Tesla Semis and electric delivery vans. UPS is buying the same cute Arrival Vans as Royal Mail.

https://www.businessinsider.com/comp...a-semi-2017-12

https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/9/17...london-arrival

Here's FedEx with a 1000 vehicle order:

https://about.van.fedex.com/newsroom...tric-vehicles/

Meanwhile, Canada Post trialled electric delivery vehicles in 2012. And then did nothing after. All of Canada Post's delivery and semi fleet could be electrified for $2-3 billion. And would provide a larger return on emissions cuts than anything else the federal government could do. Over 5-7 years, a drop in the federal budget.

My annoyance is that this kind of common sense investment is not made. Because token nonsense like EV subsidies gets prioritized.

If the market functioned better, there wouldn't need to be direct intervention from central government to do these things, it would just be cheaper for Canada Post to replace its fleet with less GHG intensive vehicles though. Absent that though, an additional cash injection from the feds to do as you say would work, and would be a very visible way to show EVs working.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by milomilo

If the market functioned better, there wouldn't need to be direct intervention from central government to do these things, it would just be cheaper for Canada Post to replace its fleet with less GHG intensive vehicles though. Absent that though, an additional cash injection from the feds to do as you say would work, and would be a very visible way to show EVs working.

If it was free market, we wouldn't have a postal service. Or at least not beyond the downtown cores of a handful of major cities.

But if we are going to have a national postal service that provides universal coverage, what's the point of having one that is constantly struggling and has a crisis every time there's a spike in oil prices?

Putting in the capital to help them electrify should help them dramatically cut costs and make them far less sensitive to oil prices. The massive cut in emissions from taking 15000 low mileage vehicles off the road is just an added benefit.

It should be noted that Canada Post could probably do this on its own. The prices of these vehicles are dropping quick. And plenty of companies have figured out that while the initial capital costs are higher, the lifecycle costs are substantially lower. But given CP’s meager capital budget and constant crisis mode, it would probably take them 20 years to replace all their vehicles with electrics. The best case scenario would be them replacing these vehicles on a normal replacement cycle. The likely scenario might be that they won’t even be able to do that, because they would not be able to start 1:1 replacement until the electric vehicles reach the exact same price as diesel vehicles. A financially crazy concept when the lifecycle costs are lower. This is why it makes sense to simply put in the capital to help them speed up the recapitalization of their fleet. Heck, the government simply loaning the money to do this would probably make sense.

[rbt]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I wish Ionity came to North America. They are actually building a charging network that rivals Tesla's.

Ultimately though, the biggest charging gaps are still multi-unit and en route. I still can't believe that the Ontario government signed a contract to rebuild all the service centres and effectively excluded fast charging operators. Unbelievable.

While short-sighted, in 2007 when the RFQ was released, there was almost nothing for fast electric vehicle charging anywhere in the world or even much in the way of electric vehicles.

In 2010 (when the contract was signed) there was still no North American standard for charging; and Europe had a few to select from. Tesla had the Roadster in production, but it took a minimum of 4 hours to charge (up to 48 hours) and wasn't very common (~1000 units world wide at that point).

Model S which could use a Supercharger wasn't in production until 2012.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by rbt

While short-sighted, in 2007 when the RFQ was released, there was almost nothing for fast electric vehicle charging anywhere in the world or even much in the way of electric vehicles.

In 2010 (when the contract was signed) there was still no North American standard for charging; and Europe had a few to select from.

There was absolutely no need to have any technical knowledge on charging. Giving Canadian Tire an exclusive on ALL auto services was the problem here. There should have simply been a carve out for alternative fuels of any kind.

Also, how long is this contract for? Is CT still going to refuse to allow Tesla and Electrify Canada chargers in 2030?

[SaskScraper]

Something to note about Electric Vehicles is there range due to their battery stamina & lifetime in hot weather.

The eastern half of Canada basically never gets above +40C temperatures so they would never have to worry except for the other extreme when Winter comes, but in Western Canada, particularly the Prairies & some interior areas of BC, temperatures commonly reach & exceed +100F each & every year.

I was in Palm Springs earlier this month with temperatures approaching +50C and that's the one thing besides tire wear that people that live there mentioned about their regular vehicles problems.

https://www.clippercreek.com/hot-wea...tric-vehicles/

[rbt]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

There was absolutely no need to have any technical knowledge on charging. Giving Canadian Tire an exclusive on ALL auto services was the problem here. There should have simply been a carve out for alternative fuels of any kind.

Also, how long is this contract for? Is CT still going to refuse to allow Tesla and Electrify Canada chargers in 2030?

The expiry date is March 27, 2060 for the 20 centers for the contract won by "Host Kilmer Service Centres" (HKSC). Canadian tire is a subcontractor, it's actually the restaurants (HMSHost) and general contractor (Kilmer) that won the government tender as a partnership. The agreement does not prevent HKSC from adding an electric option AFAICS (fuel prices are constrained by the agreement, can't charge a premium) so I think you just need to talk the restaurant franchisee into either doing it or allowing a 3rd party to lease space to provide that service.

HMSHost operates large numbers of franchises under numerous brand names, almost entirely at highway rest stop and airport locations.

Expiry date is from this agreement:
https://www.infrastructureontario.ca...id=34359738692

Canadian Tire is a tenant of HKSC with a 50 year lease for the 20 locations in that agreement.

The other 3 locations (which Canadian Tire also currently services) are Ingersoll, Newcastle, and Vaughan and currently under control of Ingersol Oil. They were expected to be considered for redevelopment in 2018 but I'm not sure if that process went forward or not. I suggest you write the MTO if you feel strongly about requiring an electric option for those 3 locations not covered by the HKSC redevelopment contract.

[DrJoe]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

Something to note about Electric Vehicles is there range due to their battery stamina & lifetime in hot weather.

The eastern half of Canada basically never gets above +40C temperatures so they would never have to worry except for the other extreme when Winter comes, but in Western Canada, particularly the Prairies & some interior areas of BC, temperatures commonly reach & exceed +100F each & every year.

I was in Palm Springs earlier this month with temperatures approaching +50C and that's the one thing besides tire wear that people that live there mentioned about their regular vehicles problems.

https://www.clippercreek.com/hot-wea...tric-vehicles/

Should be good in Maple Creek also. As far as I could tell the temp has gotten above 40C once in the last 10 years, I stopped there because I got tired of looking.

Also I noticed today's forecast high is a chilly 19C and tomorrow is an unthinkable 14C! Truly depressing stuff right there.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

Something to note about Electric Vehicles is there range due to their battery stamina & lifetime in hot weather.

The eastern half of Canada basically never gets above +40C temperatures so they would never have to worry except for the other extreme when Winter comes, but in Western Canada, particularly the Prairies & some interior areas of BC, temperatures commonly reach & exceed +100F each & every year.

I was in Palm Springs earlier this month with temperatures approaching +50C and that's the one thing besides tire wear that people that live there mentioned about their regular vehicles problems.

https://www.clippercreek.com/hot-wea...tric-vehicles/

The prairies are effectively edge cases when it comes to electric vehicles with severe climate extremes on both ends. Trying to cater to them, at the same time as the 80% of the country who lives in milder weather is pointless. They can go electric when the tech catches up sufficiently for them. No point holding everyone else back.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by rbt

The expiry date is March 27, 2060 for the 20 centers for the contract won by "Host Kilmer Service Centres" (HKSC). Canadian tire is a subcontractor, it's actually the restaurants (HMSHost) and general contractor (Kilmer) that won the government tender as a partnership. The agreement does not prevent HKSC from adding an electric option AFAICS (fuel prices are constrained by the agreement, can't charge a premium) so I think you just need to talk the restaurant franchisee into either doing it or allowing a 3rd party to lease space to provide that service.

HMSHost operates large numbers of franchises under numerous brand names, almost entirely at highway rest stop and airport locations.

Expiry date is from this agreement:
https://www.infrastructureontario.ca...id=34359738692

Canadian Tire is a tenant of HKSC with a 50 year lease for the 20 locations in that agreement.

That sucks. It’s very likely we won’t see high powered chargers even in the next decade with CT having such a long exclusive. Maybe if the government intervened and offered to pay. But that’s a long stretch.

Originally Posted by rbt

The other 3 locations (which Canadian Tire also currently services) are Ingersoll, Newcastle, and Vaughan and currently under control of Ingersol Oil. They were expected to be considered for redevelopment in 2018 but I'm not sure if that process went forward or not. I suggest you write the MTO if you feel strongly about requiring an electric option for those 3 locations not covered by the HKSC redevelopment contract.

I wrote the Transport Minister half a decade ago on this. I thought their decisions were really short-sighted at the time. Not sure how these 3 will really help. Network effects matter. And you need all the service centres to have charging stands to have an effective network.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The prairies are effectively edge cases when it comes to electric vehicles with severe climate extremes on both ends. Trying to cater to them, at the same time as the 80% of the country who lives in milder weather is pointless. They can go electric when the tech catches up sufficiently for them. No point holding everyone else back.

I would never expect to have any industry ever have to cater to them... or those kind (The Prairie market)... ever.

& the Federal Government Carbon Tax on Farmers that use more than average/capita fossil fuels on agricultural equipment in an industry that has no other options for fuel source makes this obvious, or at least as long as there is food on Canadian's tables...

I agree, once technology catches up to some of these short falls then consumer market in Arizona/California that has hottest ever recorded temperatures in USA will be able to jump on board with EVs just as much as people in interior BC and The Prairies with hottest ever recorded temperatures in Canada,

plus of course places with coldest temperature records in Canada like Ontario & Quebec & northern parts of Canada.

...Just thinking of all the extremes EV would ever have to deal with in Canada.

Number per Province of Extreme Temperature records for all of Canada per year in a century:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ures_in_Canada

[DrJoe]

There's a reason why your (former) place of residence is the most mocked on this forum and it is because of your moronic attempts at trolling. For instance, stating places like Ontario hold all the extreme cold records then posting a list where it holds 1 out of +100.

Too many pineapples have fallen on your head maybe, who knows?

[rousseau]

That chart indicates that temperatures in the upper 30s have occurred 32 times in Saskatchewan over the past 120 years but "just" 8 times in Ontario by comparison, therefore Saskatchewan is a bastion of heat that EV manufacturers will have to worry about but Ontario is a frigid winterland requiring extra engineering for the cold.

This sounds right to me. Erm, in spite of the fact that Saskatchewan's summers are cooler and shorter than (southern) Ontario's, and the winters there are longer and exponentially colder.

It's a reverse thing, I think. Like when George Costanza started doing everything the opposite way. Could be an effective design principle.

[SaskScraper]

^^ graph reading may not be your thing ... & I don't know what hat you pulled the "upper 30's" comment from (the highest possible recorded temps in Southern Ontario presumably?) .. but you are sorrily incorrect on all counts.

That extra Ontario Grade 13 year could come in handy for educating some of you SSP posters on how to read graphs...
assuming they had schools to educate you grumpy old men back then