[Moncton] Downtown Developments

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by BlackYear

The old Library would make a decent StarBucks/bakery/mini book store/cultural store/art gallery type of place. Seeing all of the surrounding hotels & apartments within a 5 minute walk might work here.

Not Starbucks anyway, since they are transitioning away from downtown locations to suburban locations with drive-thrus, but certainly an independent coffee merchant (of which there are many) could be part of the plans.

I like your idea of a neighbourhood cultural/retail centre. With so many apartment buildings under construction nearby, they would certainly have a clientele.

[Sumater]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Not Starbucks anyway, since they are transitioning away from downtown locations to suburban locations with drive-thrus, but certainly an independent coffee merchant (of which there are many) could be part of the plans.

I like your idea of a neighbourhood cultural/retail centre. With so many apartment buildings under construction nearby, they would certainly have a clientele.

I agree. Every residential area should have some social space. Helps prevent suburban alienation, I think.

[MonctonRad]

King's Club - a bar and nightclub has opened up in the space formerly occupied by Blue Olive on Main Street. Blue Olive still has their original location on Paul Street in Dieppe.


(photo from Retail Talk & Share).

The owner is the same fellow who runs the India King Restaurant and the Grand King specialty south Asian grocery store, both on St. George St.

[jonny golden]

Interesting info from Retail Talk and Share: The smaller red brick building between the Avenir Center and Terminal Plaza building has been boarded up as Allstream has moved their equipment out. If so, this would clear the way for this prime piece of land to be developed. That old building was an eyesore, and so out of place. It really should be demolished.

[MonctonianSentinel01]

Originally Posted by jonny golden

Interesting info from Retail Talk and Share: The smaller red brick building between the Avenir Center and Terminal Plaza building has been boarded up as Allstream has moved their equipment out. If so, this would clear the way for this prime piece of land to be developed. That old building was an eyesore, and so out of place. It really should be demolished.

Wow! That is awesome. That is really the only reason why it wasn't developed to begin with. Now a development can take place there!
This will help fill in that side of Main street from Vaughn Harvey to Canada st.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by MonctonianSentinel01

Wow! That is awesome. That is really the only reason why it wasn't developed to begin with. Now a development can take place there!
This will help fill in that side of Main street from Vaughn Harvey to Canada st.

It is indeed good news that this building is now available for demolition and the land available for redevelopment.

Unfortunately, this comes at a time when, due to the pandemic, the prospects for redeveloping a prime piece of land immediately adjacent to a major performance and entertainment venue could hardly be worse.

Personally, I would be happy if they took their time with this and got it right. Wait until the sports and entertainment sector is rebounding. Combine this parcel of land with redevelopment of 1222 Main next door. I doubt that 1222 Main will see commercial redevelopment. I think a residential or hotel conversion is more likely. The land between 1222 Main and the Avenir Centre could see an additional residential tower, with entertainment focussed services and retail in the ground level podium. A major sports bar and restaurant here for example would be ideal. Add in a coffee shop, some quick serve options or a brew pub, and you would be all set for the pre and post event crowd.

[MonctonianSentinel01]

Very true. I'm not too much in a rush though. It's been like that for sometime now. It is going in a positive direction though and I'm quit happy about that. The land is wide enough for a decent building, even though it is pretty skinny looking from Google Maps.

[Taeolas]

A smart developer would realize that the Pandemic and its restrictions are only temporary, and Moncton is prime for an entertainment boom once the restrictions relax. So grabbing an opportunity now and getting it going should mean it will be ready to take advantage of the hockey games and concerts again soon after the Pandemic is history.

[David_99]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I think a residential or hotel conversion is more likely. The land between 1222 Main and the Avenir Centre could see an additional residential tower, with entertainment focussed services and retail in the ground level podium. A major sports bar and restaurant here for example would be ideal. Add in a coffee shop, some quick serve options or a brew pub, and you would be all set for the pre and post event crowd.

How many seconds would pass after something as fantastic as this would be announced before you hear cries of “What a waste! That space would have been perfect for a parking lot!”

[jonny golden]

Hopefully we see a signature development on this site. Mixed use with some height would be ideal. What would be really interesting would be for Crombie to incorporate the redevelopment of the 1222 Main Street building into the project. Perhaps two towers with a connecting podium.

Does Crombie have residential holdings, or just commercial?

[lirette]

Originally Posted by David_99

How many seconds would pass after something as fantastic as this would be announced before you hear cries of “What a waste! That space would have been perfect for a parking lot!”

I feel like so much time has passed now, with many successful events at Avenir that there is only a tiny % of people left with this mindset. I could be wrong about this but I can imagine that there is a large group of people who have a new appreciation for a place like that Avenir Centre after 1+ year restricted gatherings, lack of live music, live sports etc.

While the economic impact of the impact of the pandemic can't also be ignored I think a place like Avenir is poised for a big 2022.

Of course there will always be a few angry ones left, I think they will be even easier to ignore now. The Avenir Centre will continue to be something to build around as the city and province sees a massive influx of people moving from around the country to NB. Having a couple more large residential buildings around the area would be fantastic.

[MonctonRad]

This sad photo of the Subway Block appeared on Retail Talk & Share a couple of days ago:



I must admit that when I saw this photograph, I became furious!

This architecturally distinctive commercial building with an Italianate facade is a linchpin property in the downtown core, strategically adjacent to the CNR overpass and sits at a critical connection point between the east and west ends of the downtown.

What do we see? We see a derelict and abandoned building, with boarded up windows, and with tents occupied by homeless people in the storefront entryways!!!!!

This can not be allowed to stand.

The west end of downtown is growing and prospering. The east end of downtown is also seeing new buildings and impressive investment, most recently with the proposal for St. Bernard's Square.

And what do we have in the middle????

We have this abomination..............

When the Avenir Centre finally gets back up and running after the pandemic is over, every single out of town guest who is staying in one of the more major downtown hotels will have to pass by THIS both on the way to, and on the way back from, the Avenir Centre!!!!!

Is this the sort of image that we want our city to convey? Is this what we want tourists and visitors to retain as their memory of downtown Moncton??? I would think not.

The travesty of the Subway Block has gone on long enough. It has been vacant for at least a decade and is deteriorating. The boarded up windows and the homeless tents are the last straw. Either firm plans for redevelopment of this block have to be drawn up soon (like in months), or the Subway Block should be demolished and the property converted to temporary parkland until a new developer is found.

I am well and truly fed up with this situation.

[jonny golden]

Originally Posted by lirette

I feel like so much time has passed now, with many successful events at Avenir that there is only a tiny % of people left with this mindset. I could be wrong about this but I can imagine that there is a large group of people who have a new appreciation for a place like that Avenir Centre after 1+ year restricted gatherings, lack of live music, live sports etc.

While the economic impact of the impact of the pandemic can't also be ignored I think a place like Avenir is poised for a big 2022.

Of course there will always be a few angry ones left, I think they will be even easier to ignore now. The Avenir Centre will continue to be something to build around as the city and province sees a massive influx of people moving from around the country to NB. Having a couple more large residential buildings around the area would be fantastic.

In the neighbourhood, there's also the Junction Urban Village. Their plans included an office building as well as a hotel. In light of the pandemic, it will be interesting to see if their plans change. With both apartment buildings being fully leased even before completion, will they pivot to more residential?

[NBNYer]

Originally Posted by jonny golden

In the neighbourhood, there's also the Junction Urban Village. Their plans included an office building as well as a hotel. In light of the pandemic, it will be interesting to see if their plans change. With both apartment buildings being fully leased even before completion, will they pivot to more residential?

The Junction and specifically Tannery Place already seemed underwhelming for such a prominent location. Now, with all the other major announcements elsewhere downtown, it seems wholly inadequate for that intersection. Why would you not take this golden opportunity of residential development to increase the scale of Tannery North?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by NBNYer

The Junction and specifically Tannery Place already seemed underwhelming for such a prominent location. Now, with all the other major announcements elsewhere downtown, it seems wholly inadequate for that intersection. Why would you not take this golden opportunity of residential development to increase the scale of Tannery North?

I would carry on with Tannery Place North as is, as to not upset the symmetry of massing with Tannery Place South. I would wonder however, given the current commercial real estate climate, if it would not be prudent (in the future) to consider proceeding with a third apartment building next to the Goodlife gym rather than the planned office building.

If this were to happen, there is no reason why the third building couldn't be taller, say 10-12 storeys, and perhaps of a different architectural style. This potential third building would after all lie on the other side of Ivan Rand Drive and thus would be somewhat physically removed from the other two buildings. This would not upset the overall styling of this neighbourhood.

As for the fourth building which will face Main Street; this is still several years off in the future. Present plans are for a hotel. Maybe at that point, such plans would make sense again.

[lirette]

On the Subway block I'm quite surprised that none of the tenants on the west end of the building asked for something to be done by the city or the building owner (perhaps they have?).

Homelessness is obvious a complicated issue and there needs to be compassion here, blocking off the building will just move them elsewhere and they are going to always be downtown because that's where the services are. We can't just hide away the problem and close our eyes to it. We are seeing more conversations around it in the past year but this is an issue that needs all 3 levels of government working together.

I work downtown and the issue has gotten progressively worse since the pandemic. That building has basically looked like that for about 6 months. If you walk down main street at any given time this is not the only area with visible homelessness. Being a downtown worker I'd say you are almost outnumbered by homeless/people in need walking to get a coffee or lunch. Its a stark difference from even 2 or 3 years ago but even more noticeable because only 1/3 of the workers are actually in the office and right now many days are too cold for people to be out. I personally do what I can to say hello to many of the less fortunate that are around because I understand the humanizing impact that can have on them, but there is times when I don't feel entirely safe either and I need to be careful engaging. Our city has been penetrated by things like Meth and its quite heartbreaking.

The new shelter has lots of activity so there is often folks coming or going down main st from the food services like Humanity Project or House of Nazareth etc.

Probably not the right thread to discuss this issue really but it definitely has its impact on the downtown core. This is also not remotely unique to Moncton.

I've been saying I've wanted to see a development on this location for many years, if you dine at a nice restaurant on on the west end of downtown and walk to event you always pass this area and it can dampen the experience. If no one wants this property then its probably time to get rid of it. Is the interior in such poor shape that there's no interest?

[MonctonRad]

I have compassion for the homeless too, although in some cases, homelessness is self inflicted. In others, it's simply a matter of bad luck and life spiralling out of control.

Regardless, there should be governmental programs to house these people and provide them with the social services necessary to reintegrate them into society. We see some initiatives along those lines developing, but the approach is still haphazard. Unfortunately, due to mental illness and or addiction, some people are almost impossible to help.

I am much less tolerant than you however for public vagrancy and aggressive panhandling. Homeless camps in urban doorways and public parks also should not be tolerated. All this leads to is a depressing effect on the entire neighbourhood, causing people to avoid the area, and as a result, suppressing business activity and discouraging urban renewal. This can become a vicious cycle, ultimately leading to ghettoization.

I prefer urban renewal to ghettoization myself. These homeless people need to be relocated to shelters. Boarded up storefronts should be replaced with glass windows. All efforts should be made to attract investment to the area to allow for renovations and the stimulation of new business activity. We need vitality and not despair.

I would prefer to see the Subway Block renovated, but if it is truly irredeemable, then it's heritage designation should be revoked and the building demolished.

It matters little right now since this is the winter, and the pandemic is ongoing, but in six months time, things could be entirely different. I want to see action on the Subway Block situation before the summetime arrives.

[jonny golden]

I think the big problem with the Subway Block is the money it would take to refurbish it. It was built in 1917-18, and having sat vacant for so long it's been deteriorating. A developer would be able to get a better return on investment elsewhere.

On top of that it's designated as a local historic place, so I'm sure there would be an uproar if an investor wanted to tear it down and build something new.

I'd love to see something happen with the property because it's a real eyesore in a prominent downtown location. My choice would be a tear down and new construction.

[adamuptownsj]

I think throwing your hands up at 'homeless camps' is a terrible idea. Having feces, needles, and screaming people given a permanent/invited curbside presence is basically like eating poison, as far as urban development goes.

More money has been shoveled into shelters and beds this year than I can remember, and more than half the CBC sob stories on homelessness involve people 'not liking the rules' of shelters. What's an acceptable proposal? Open party houses for them?

[lirette]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

I think throwing your hands up at 'homeless camps' is a terrible idea. Having feces, needles, and screaming people given a permanent/invited curbside presence is basically like eating poison, as far as urban development goes.

More money has been shoveled into shelters and beds this year than I can remember, and more than half the CBC sob stories on homelessness involve people 'not liking the rules' of shelters. What's an acceptable proposal? Open party houses for them?

Not sure if you are responding to me but nowhere in my post did I suggest throwing our hands up. Shelters are not remotely close to a solution to homelessness. The fact that beds and shelters aren't working isn't a reason to give up, it's actually should be a wake up call to many (as this photo should be) that we need complex, multi pronged, multi level government approach. We need more investment in mental health and income inquality while housing costs rise to prevent homelessness in the first place

There are things happening in many other countries that have helped curb homelessness that this country / province / city has not tried. A city in BC thought fining the pan handlers was a good idea. Then they ended up in a situation where a man had $800 in fines he couldn't pay so they spent $30K in legal fees trying to get him to. Money that could have went to a mental health or crisis worker or perhaps a rehabilition program.

This problem isn't going away anytime soon and I expect it will continue to get worse in Moncton. If the solutions are to fine, arrest or send the homeless away to a shelter I can promise you nothing will get better. The shelters are awful places for someone who is mentally unstable. We"ve essentially had the same approach to this since as long as I can remember and it's only gotten worse. We can call the homeless all the names we want and keep them out of sight of society but it will continue to exist just in someone else's neighbourhood.

In the end this is obviously a private property and so eventually something will be done, I absolutely agree if this building is never going to be redeveloped then get rid of it & build something which will contribute more to the city & province as a whole. I don't want this building to look like this either or want to see the homeless suffering on our streets but I can accept the reality of how it got this way. The help for the current homeless issue should have happened years ago. I can remember a time in the early 2000s when the only homeless person in the city had a fun nickname and quirky stories.