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  #1  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2024, 5:39 PM
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Business owners are buying into a bogus myth about driving

From Vox:

Business owners are buying into a bogus myth about driving

NYC’s very good plan to fix traffic fell victim to a very bad argument. And it's not just New York.

by David Zipper
Jun 11, 2024, 4:30 AM PDT


A street corner in Lower Manhattan, which would have been affected by the congestion pricing policy scuttled last week by New York Gov. Kathy Hochul. Research consistently shows that business owners overestimate how many of their customers arrive by car. Maremagnum/Getty Images

Facing a barrage of criticism following her 11th-hour turn against congestion pricing in Manhattan, New York Gov. Kathy Hochul held a hastily planned press conference last Friday evening — not a time when politicians tend to spotlight issues they’re glad to talk about. Trying to justify her about-face, she invoked Manhattan merchants fearful that congestion pricing would cripple them by deterring suburban patrons unwilling to pay a $15 weekday toll on vehicles entering Manhattan south of 60th Street.

Small business owners are “deathly afraid that they’ll lose their customers who may come in from places like New Jersey,” she said, mentioning Comfort Diner, Townhouse Diner, and Pershing Square, whose owner is apparently “very happy” with her decision to slam the brakes on congestion pricing. Answering a question from the press, she added, “I encourage you to go to the next diner with me … watch the people come over and thank me.”

Hochul’s claims drew eyerolls from those wondering how many people were using a car to reach diners in the densest, most transit-rich county in the country — particularly Pershing Square, which is across the street from Grand Central Station. Transportation outlet Streetsblog accused the governor of “plutocratic populism” — deferring to the preferences of the affluent over the public interest — while a Gothamist reporter who visited all three of the restaurants spoke with one owner who vehemently denied ever discussing congestion pricing with her.

In New York City, where the majority of residents don’t own a car, it seems odd to assert that a policy benefitting transit users, pedestrians, and cyclists is bad for attracting customers. Commuters who drive into Manhattan have significantly higher incomes than others who work in the borough, so Hochul’s claim that killing congestion pricing would relieve New York’s cost of living crisis is just as suspect.

Even if Hochul is telling the truth about restaurateurs’ complaints, they're still a terrible justification for her flip-flop on congestion pricing. The same goes for public leaders elsewhere who scuttle other urban transportation reforms that merchants often loathe, such as replacing street parking with dedicated lanes for bikes and buses. When it comes to shoppers’ travel habits, small business owners simply don’t know what they’re talking about — and not just in New York.

Small business owners wildly overestimate how many customers arrive by car

In study after study in city after city around the world, researchers have found that merchants exaggerate the share of patrons who arrive by car and undercount those who walk, bike, or ride transit. Those misperceptions lead them to oppose transportation reforms that would limit the presence of cars and make urban neighborhoods cleaner, more pleasant, and less polluted — and would likely increase spending at their business, too.

Consider a 2021 study in Berlin, in which researchers asked 145 shopkeepers and over 2,000 shoppers about travel behavior. The share of shoppers who drove was 15 percent below what shopkeepers predicted, while the portion who took transit, walked, and biked was higher (by 8.1 percent, 6.2 percent, and 3 percent, respectively). Similarly, a 2011 study of Dublin concluded that business owners overestimated the percentage of customers arriving by car and undercounted those who didn’t. The same bias has been observed in Graz, Austria, and Bristol, England.

[...]

For the rest of the article, click the link.
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  #2  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2024, 5:44 PM
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probably because drivers always complain about parking
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  #3  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2024, 5:52 PM
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Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
probably because drivers always complain about parking
And the flip side is that stores that are inaccessible to people on foot, bike, or transit are simply never patronized by people via those methods, so there's no one to complain.

Everything everywhere must be made to bend to the will of the almighty motorist!

GET OUTTA MY WAY, PEDESTRIANS!!!



We live in a stupid world made by stupid people.
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  #4  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2024, 7:51 PM
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If your business in Midtown Manhattan can't survive off of foot traffic, you don't have a very good business. If your business has a compelling enough product or service, then not only should you do well with pedestrians, cyclists, and transit riders, but you should still have people who would either be willing to switch to PATH/NJT/Metro-North or bite the bullet and pay the toll.

I'm so tired of this country doing all that it can to encourage and promote car culture.
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  #5  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2024, 8:19 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan View Post
If your business in Midtown Manhattan can't survive off of foot traffic, you don't have a very good business. If your business has a compelling enough product or service, then not only should you do well with pedestrians, cyclists, and transit riders, but you should still have people who would either be willing to switch to PATH/NJT/Metro-North or bite the bullet and pay the toll.

I'm so tired of this country doing all that it can to encourage and promote car culture.
With the exception of parking garages, auto shops, garages/gas stations, etc., I can't think of a single type of business on the entire island of Manhattan that would depend on people arriving by car. In fact, there are literally only two gas stations in the entire congestion pricing zone, and there are rarely more than two or three cars at either station at any single point in time. That's why she sounded so out of touch by trying to claim that diner owners were concerned about the impact on their businesses.
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  #6  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2024, 4:04 AM
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I thought the biggest complaints were for emergency personnel not being exempted from the congestion pricing to get to work in Manhattan; they live in the outer boroughs and commute in, and need the option of driving in to get to work quickly in the interest of public safety.

Another complaint was that the congestion pricing would apply to taxis and rideshares, at a reduced rate. Those forms of transportation would reduce the number of people parking their own cars in the area, but the users would still have to pay part of the congestion fee.

Weren't commercial vehicles, like delivery trucks, also subject to the congestion pricing?

I really didn't hear much about business owners having the most legitimate reasons for concern.
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  #7  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2024, 4:38 AM
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Originally Posted by xzmattzx View Post
I thought the biggest complaints were for emergency personnel not being exempted from the congestion pricing to get to work in Manhattan; they live in the outer boroughs and commute in, and need the option of driving in to get to work quickly in the interest of public safety.
Why would emergency personnel be exempted? This makes zero sense. Cops, firefighters & EMT shouldn't have to pay for personal transportation and should have their personal commuting trips subsidized by everyone else?

Congestion pricing is intended to reduce congestion by pricing private trips into the most congested zone at a higher level than elsewhere, esp. at peak times. A cop's private vehicle creates the same congestion as any other private vehicle.
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I really didn't hear much about business owners having the most legitimate reasons for concern.
The major regional business orgs all support congestion pricing. The Governor prolly got cold feet bc of (really freaking stupid and counterproductive) pressure from Hakeem Jeffries, believing control of Congress might hinge on one or two suburban seats where the Dems didn't want to look like they were introducing new taxes/tolls. At least that's the allegation. It makes no sense that one week earlier she was flying to Europe to extoll the virtues of congestion pricing. Either that or the Gov. has been replaced by an alien pod.

If congestion pricing doesn't happen before the election, the Dems are going to pay the price locally in Nov. Jeffries & Hochul miscalculated, bigtime. Hochul will be out of a job, and the Dems might lose Congress. Congestion pricing wasn't a big issue until they made it a big issue.
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Old Posted Jun 19, 2024, 5:07 AM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
With the exception of parking garages, auto shops, garages/gas stations, etc., I can't think of a single type of business on the entire island of Manhattan that would depend on people arriving by car. In fact, there are literally only two gas stations in the entire congestion pricing zone, and there are rarely more than two or three cars at either station at any single point in time. That's why she sounded so out of touch by trying to claim that diner owners were concerned about the impact on their businesses.
The diner owners likely drive to their diners. That's what has got them so concerned about customers and driving. They aren't concerned about the customer.
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Old Posted Jun 19, 2024, 2:21 PM
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The diner owners likely drive to their diners. That's what has got them so concerned about customers and driving. They aren't concerned about the customer.
In NYC and Boston, there seems to be a thing where shop owners make a point of driving to work as a point of status separation between themselves and their employees. Ostensibly, the car is used midday to meet with vendors and customers, but in reality they could have taken a cab.
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  #10  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2024, 3:43 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by xzmattzx View Post
I thought the biggest complaints were for emergency personnel not being exempted from the congestion pricing to get to work in Manhattan; they live in the outer boroughs and commute in, and need the option of driving in to get to work quickly in the interest of public safety.

Another complaint was that the congestion pricing would apply to taxis and rideshares, at a reduced rate. Those forms of transportation would reduce the number of people parking their own cars in the area, but the users would still have to pay part of the congestion fee.

Weren't commercial vehicles, like delivery trucks, also subject to the congestion pricing?

I really didn't hear much about business owners having the most legitimate reasons for concern.
The reason Hochul gave for the pause had nothing to do with public service workers driving to work. Her "reason" was that Manhattan's economic recover from COVID is still in a fragile state, so it wasn't the right time to implement congestion pricing. It's a pretty flimsy argument for a number of reasons, and the most logical reason for her decision is the one she hasn't publicly stated -- that she's concerned about the political blowback from areas surrounding New York City.

If she's really concerned about getting people back into Manhattan more regularly then she should be concerned with how to get them in and out faster, which congestion pricing would have helped to do.
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  #11  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2024, 5:12 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
If she's really concerned about getting people back into Manhattan more regularly then she should be concerned with how to get them in and out faster, which congestion pricing would have helped to do.
Right, and all the regional business orgs support congestion pricing. It should be obvious that it's extremely inefficient to have a relatively small number of private vehicles paralyze Manhattan every day. If you work in Midtown, it's now much faster to walk east-west than take a taxi/car service.

Congestion pricing will improve transit, improve air quality and lessen congestion, all great for the local economy. And yeah, if Hochul wants more people working in Manhattan offices, congestion pricing will obviously further that goal.

Current congestion entering/leaving Manhattan is the worst recorded, ever. And it's getting worse every year. Huge regional economic toll when it takes 90 minutes to travel 1 mile through the Hudson or East River tunnels/bridges. For portions of workdays, I'm listening to local sports radio, and hear the regular traffic/transit reports - "90 minutes in the Lincoln, 80 minutes in the Holland". Complete insanity.

Also a big FU to former NJ Governor Chris Christie, who cancelled an additional Hudson rail crossing, that would have doubled NJ Transit rail capacity to Manhattan. Hell of a job...
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  #12  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2024, 1:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
If congestion pricing doesn't happen before the election, the Dems are going to pay the price locally in Nov. Jeffries & Hochul miscalculated, bigtime. Hochul will be out of a job, and the Dems might lose Congress. Congestion pricing wasn't a big issue until they made it a big issue.
Even if she somehow reinstates it before the election, I'm still damn-sure not voting for her. EVER.

Even if she backtracks, this act is too egregious, irrational, and self-serving!
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Old Posted Jun 24, 2024, 8:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
on pricing doesn't happen before the election, the Dems are going to pay the price locally in Nov. Jeffries & Hochul miscalculated, bigtime. Hochul will be out of a job, and the Dems might lose Congress. Congestion pricing wasn't a big issue until they made it a big issue.
How would Dems pay the price in Nov?
The cross section of people who would switch parties and vote for R because Hochul didn't implement congestion pricing is exactly 0.
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  #14  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2024, 4:38 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I can't think of a single type of business on the entire island of Manhattan that would depend on people arriving by car.
There are a few in very specific categories. (BTW this is not me supporting Hochul's decision). I'm thinking of people that work in trade roles in very specific industries like fashion and interior design. All those chintzy shops in the Flower and Garment district are essentially selling wholesale in volume to companies...not individuals. They would have couriers in vans carting their stuff around all day. But they would just have to build it into their pricing.

Otherwise, I agree with you 100%.
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