Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[ucsbgaucho]

Originally Posted by Old&New

Minneapolis has all three, and attendance is definitely not lagging.

Minneapolis has a metro population greater than the entire state of Utah, with 5 Fortune 500 Companies headquartered there. They have all five pro sports franchises too.

[VelvetElvis]

Originally Posted by wrendog

I love sports. I'm not as obsessed as I was 15-20 years ago, but I still love it.

Just like you don't get sports fans, I don't get musical/theater fans. Just not my thing. At all.

That said, I was a big fan of SLC getting a great broadway style theater. I see the positive benefit for the community for sure. Non sports fans, should want to see sports development in SLC for the same reasons.

I don't follow the analogy here between spectator sports and the arts (music and theater). Are you strictly comparing the construction jobs created through the development of the respective facilities and the future financial possibilities, or are you extending your comparison to the social benefits of going and seeing a football game with attendance at, say, Hamilton or digesting a Batsheva Dance Co. performance? It's okay if one of these isn't your thing, but they don't occupy the same realm. My humanity has never been heightened, expanded, or challenged watching a sporting event. Participating in sports, perhaps.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by T-Stan

Salt Lake City was very close to getting a major league team. I heard an interview with Larry H Miller about 15 years ago and he talked about this. He said that the Minnesota Twins were trying to get a new stadium and had been turned down a few times. SL Buzz (the team name at the time) was the AAA affiliate of the Twins. LHM was approached by the owner of the Twins about moving them to SLC. Smith's Ballpark (Franklin Covey at the time) was still only a few years old and apparently could be easily expanded to 30,000 people as a temporary fix. The Twins were only averaging between 15-20K per game at the time.
LHM said that for a few weeks, he thought we would get the Twins. Everything was in place to move ahead with Major League baseball, all they needed was for the owner to give the thumbs up. In the end, the Twins decided to stick it out and eventually (albeit several years later) got the funding for a new ballpark.
LHM said that he thought Salt Lake would eventually get a MLB team before getting an NHL or NFL team.

This is true in bits. The Twins were looking to get a new stadium built in Minneapolis but were rebuffed multiple times. They then threatened to walk and said they'd temporarily relocate to Salt Lake City until a stadium was finalized in Charlotte, I believe. This was a long time ago, though, around 1998, but things kinda fell apart and it never happened.

Salt Lake was never going to be the permanent home for the Twins.

Here's an old article on Charlotte pushing hard to get the Twins:

https://www.bizjournals.com/charlott...04/story4.html

Originally Posted by ucsbgaucho

Just as a reminder, SLC has 2 teams in the top 5 leagues... Cities with only one major pro sports team: San Diego, Sacramento, Las Vegas, San Antonio, Buffalo, Nashville, Jacksonville, OKC. Cities with only two major teams like SLC: Portland, San Jose, Vancouver, Orlando, St Louis, Tampa, Baltimore, and DC.

Las Vegas will come off this list when they get the Raiders. Buffalo has two professional teams - the Sabers in the NHL and the Bills in the NFL. Nashville has the Predators (NHL) and the Titans (NFL).

Originally Posted by ucsbgaucho

So we're not that bad here, I think Orlando is a pretty good comparison because we have the same two pro sports teams. MLB can't really even make it work in Florida in general, both teams there can barely fill their stadiums half-way.

It's hard for me to compare the MLS to the NBA, NFL, MLB and NHL. It might be growing as a league but it's absolutely a tier or two below these professional leagues. I'd even put it below college football.

Just look at the TV ratings for the most recent title games for each league:

Super Bowl: 98 million
College Football Championship game: 27.8 million
NBA Finals (average): 17.56 million
World Series (average): 14.12 million
Stanley Cup (average): 4.9 million
MLS Cup: 1.5 million

The NHL is the closest and even that is vastly more popular. So, it's hard for me to put that league on the same level as others when they're so much more dominant in their respective cities. Even in Utah, while there's a hardcore group of supporters, the state as a whole is far more invested in Utah football and Utah Jazz basketball than Real Salt Lake.

Originally Posted by ucsbgaucho

The issue is most leagues, other than the MLS, are not expanding and have no plans to, so you'd have to get a team to move. For the NFL, there's a couple franchises that could move, but SLC wouldn't be a destination. San Diego would get a team again, Jacksonville has been a rumored candidate to move to SD since the city of Jville doesn't really support them, and Buffalo will probably move to Toronto eventually. NFL is also looking at London or maybe Mexico City as future international expansion. MLB is lagging in attendance and ratings, they are both down, so I doubt they'd think expansion would be a good idea to solve that since the cities that don't have a team are all small markets.

This I agree with. The NFL isn't in need of expansion and the MLB very well could be contracting. I think the NHL is also unlikely to expand beyond Seattle. But if they do, as much as I'd think Salt Lake could support a NHL team, we're in a similar position as with the NFL - there's a bevy of cities in front of Salt Lake. For the NHL, it's Portland, Kansas City, Houston or a Canadian city. Salt Lake isn't really floated as a destination city for an expansion team. Case in point:

Breaking down four cities the NHL could expand/relocate to

Potential National Hockey League expansion

Ranking the NHL expansion options

TOP 10 CITIES THAT NEED AN NHL FRANCHISE

There are certainly articles that mention Salt Lake, so, I do not want to make it sound like they're never floated as a candidate. But it seems most those articles are fan sourced and not a realistic, or legitimate, news source.

As for the NFL? You said it. There's just a gigantic list of cities ahead of Salt Lake.

San Diego very well could see a return as they were a very supportive city to the Chargers. Think Charlotte with the Hornets and, eventually, Cleveland with the Browns (or maybe Seattle one day with the Sonics).

San Antonio has been floated around as a NFL city for years. They even built the Alamodome in the 90s to lure a NFL team to the city. They've not yet received one, though did house the Saints for a time after Katrina hit New Orleans.Their mayor recently said that the city would have a NFL team within ten years. It's probably just bluster but no one in Utah is even coming close to making those types of declarations.

Portland is generally on every list for any potential expansion city - whether it's the MLB, NHL or, even, the NFL.

London. The NFL is experimenting in Europe and I suspect it's to see the viability of a NFL franchise there.

Mexico City. See above about London.

But I don't see the NFL expanding anytime soon. They have the most franchises of any of the major four sports and seem content where they're at for the foreseeable future. Where things get interesting is if teams decide to relocate. We've already seen the Rams move back to Los Angeles, along with the Chargers, and the Raiders about to relocate to Vegas.

The Jags may be the next team to relocate.

[meman]

This post is a little off-subject but I was bored today and was looking at some old development threads for salt lake city from 2008. Does anybody out there remember the Proscenium project that was supposed to be build in Sandy. It was to include 30 to 40 story buildings in a huge development.

Its funny that not one damn building was ever built in the highly -hyped development. The last time I was in the area (a couple months ago) the area was nothing but a empty lot.

I just thought, how typical how these developers get all starry-eyed with their big developments and not one damn thing is ever built.

Also anyone remember the Gerehy project in Lehi? It was suppose to be the tallest building in Utah It is still a cow-field 10 years later.

Its really frustrating because this happens time and time again in Utah!!!

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by meman

This post is a little off-subject but I was bored today and was looking at some old development threads for salt lake city from 2008. Does anybody out there remember the Proscenium project that was supposed to be build in Sandy. It was to include 30 to 40 story buildings in a huge development.

Its funny that not one damn building was ever built in the highly -hyped development. The last time I was in the area (a couple months ago) the area was nothing but a empty lot.

I just thought, how typical how these developers get all starry-eyed with their big developments and not one damn thing is ever built.

Also anyone remember the Gerehy project in Lehi? It was suppose to be the tallest building in Utah It is still a cow-field 10 years later.

Its really frustrating because this happens time and time again in Utah!!!

These two projects, along with the Air Center in downtown Salt Lake, were far too ambitious for the area and the developer. I knew the Lehi project was unlikely to ever see even the most marginal development and I suspected the same for the Sandy projects. I was right on both.

[jtrent77]

Originally Posted by meman

This post is a little off-subject but I was bored today and was looking at some old development threads for salt lake city from 2008. Does anybody out there remember the Proscenium project that was supposed to be build in Sandy. It was to include 30 to 40 story buildings in a huge development.

Its funny that not one damn building was ever built in the highly -hyped development. The last time I was in the area (a couple months ago) the area was nothing but a empty lot.

I just thought, how typical how these developers get all starry-eyed with their big developments and not one damn thing is ever built.

Also anyone remember the Gerehy project in Lehi? It was suppose to be the tallest building in Utah It is still a cow-field 10 years later.

Its really frustrating because this happens time and time again in Utah!!!

It's not just a Utah thing. I'm out in the DC area and there are several project that are proposed and discussed and then never get beyond that and then a new batch comes along later.

[bob rulz]

We are definitely never getting an NFL team. MLB and NHL aren't out of the realm of possibility, but I wouldn't expect either one any time soon. Salt Lake City is most likely never getting another pro sports team.

Anyway, Tower 8 better start soon, because this thread is really straying off-topic again.

Originally Posted by meman

This post is a little off-subject but I was bored today and was looking at some old development threads for salt lake city from 2008. Does anybody out there remember the Proscenium project that was supposed to be build in Sandy. It was to include 30 to 40 story buildings in a huge development.

Its funny that not one damn building was ever built in the highly -hyped development. The last time I was in the area (a couple months ago) the area was nothing but a empty lot.

I just thought, how typical how these developers get all starry-eyed with their big developments and not one damn thing is ever built.

Also anyone remember the Gerehy project in Lehi? It was suppose to be the tallest building in Utah It is still a cow-field 10 years later.

Its really frustrating because this happens time and time again in Utah!!!

The Lehi and Sandy projects were pie in the sky proposals. There is no way we were getting legit suburban skyscrapers. And frankly I'm damn glad our tallest building didn't end up being out in Lehi. That would've been absurd.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by Comrade

...

San Antonio has been floated around as a NFL city for years. They even built the Alamodome in the 90s to lure a NFL team to the city. They've not yet received one, though did house the Saints for a time after Katrina hit New Orleans.Their mayor recently said that the city would have a NFL team within ten years. It's probably just bluster but no one in Utah is even coming close to making those types of declarations.

...

Salt Lake's metro is larger than the San Antonio metro. The only reason San Antonio gets this kind of talk is because they annexed EIGHT counties into their city to become one of the 10 largest cities in the U.S. (Granted Texas counties are much smaller than Utah counties.)

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by meman

...
I just thought, how typical how these developers get all starry-eyed with their big developments and not one damn thing is ever built.
...

The Proscenium project didn't even have a developer attached. It was Sandy city trying to lure developers to build their pie-in-the-sky dream. They eventually lured in a developer who then backed out, but it was all hogwash from Sandy city. Sandy just hired an architect, Russell Platt, to design the buildings and then try and sell the idea to a developer.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by ucsbgaucho

The NFL requires a TON of money to start a franchise. The fee to move the Chargers to LA was around $500 million. The wealthiest person in Utah has a net worth barely over $1 billion, that's FAR down the list of wealthiest in the US.

We used to have several multi-billionaires in Utah, but then they died and spread the money among multiple heirs. That money is still rolling around Utah. Plus, we have multiple tech unicorns now. Although, they still need to be built up more before they can offer a large amount of sponsorship money.

Originally Posted by ucsbgaucho

But for the 2018 Super Bowl (Philly vs NE) SLC was dead last in TV ratings, which is not a good sign for broadcasts of local games.

That's not a good example. Two eastern teams aren't going to excite a lot of Western viewers. We haven't been last in the ratings every year of the Super Bowl. And the ratings would definitely be higher for a local team.

I'm not saying you're wrong about an NFL team being unlikely, but I think it could happen.

[Blah_Amazing]

Does anyone have any progress updates on Hardware Village East and West?

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Stenar

Salt Lake's metro is larger than the San Antonio metro. The only reason San Antonio gets this kind of talk is because they annexed EIGHT counties into their city to become one of the 10 largest cities in the U.S. (Granted Texas counties are much smaller than Utah counties.)

That and they're also in the second largest state in the country. It's not just because they've annexed a great deal of counties - it's because they're a decent sized city in a very fucking large state.

I feel this is lost on a lot of people, unfortunately. It's not just about the metro. It's about the surrounding area, as well. Austin, which is about 80 miles Northeast of San Antonio, has a metro population of over two-million. Also, SLC's PSA numbers are larger (barely) than San Antonio - not metros.

Still, combine Austin + San Antonio and you've got two PSAs of 4,589,801 - or an area with a population larger than Utah's entire population by one-million.

It's really not comparable.

What dings Salt Lake is that we're a larger urban area in a state that is closer to Kansas, Iowa and Arkansas in terms of population - states no one would ever expect a NFL team to relocate to. The only difference is that most our population is centered along the Wasatch Fault whereas in these other states, it's far more balanced statewide.

Utah is the 8th most urban state in the country, according to 2010 Census data. That's a cool little nugget of information. But it really shows how deceptive it is. Colorado, which I think everyone would agree is a tier or two above Utah, is the 14th most urban state.

But what this showcases is just how little there is outside the Wasatch Front. Where other similar-sized cities have an advantage is that they can pull from a far larger population base. Kansas City actually has a smaller PSA than Salt Lake City. Yet Missouri's population is double that of Utah's, which means you've got a lot of potential Chiefs fans - especially now that the Rams have left St. Louis.

Utah is about two-million (plus) people away from supporting a NFL team, IMO.

So, around 2040. I think that's a realistic goal - if the NFL and football is even around by then.

[wrendog]

Originally Posted by Stenar

Salt Lake's metro is larger than the San Antonio metro. The only reason San Antonio gets this kind of talk is because they annexed EIGHT counties into their city to become one of the 10 largest cities in the U.S. (Granted Texas counties are much smaller than Utah counties.)

The city of San Antonio is Bexar County. The metro area consists of 8 counties, but they are small counties with small populations. Bexar County is at 1.9 million and the city of San Antonio is 1.5 million.

And, like Comrade said, with the 2 million from Austin MSA, the SA-Austin area is 4.5 million.

In addition, San Antonio MSA has 7 (I believe) fortune 500 companies and SLC has none.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by wrendog

The city of San Antonio is Bexar County. The metro area consists of 8 counties, but they are small counties with small populations. Bexar County is at 1.9 million and the city of San Antonio is 1.5 million.

And, like Comrade said, with the 2 million from Austin MSA, the SA-Austin area is 4.5 million.

In addition, San Antonio MSA has 7 (I believe) fortune 500 companies and SLC has none.

I read an article about San Antonio annexations a couple of years ago, and I thought I read that it annexed land in 8 counties. I must have misread.

That San Antonio has 7 Fortune 500 companies is just an argument for Salt Lake City annexing all of the county so we can be taken more seriously by corporations.

The crazy thing is that even though San Antonio has annexed a large area, they’re STILL annexing nearby communities.

[Stenar]

[QUOTE=Comrade;8500738]Also, SLC's PSA numbers are larger (barely) than San Antonio - not metros.
/QUOTE]

Our CSA should be our MSA, so I count it as such.

Also, the San Antonio MSA covers 7387 square miles. The Wasatch Front only covers 4245 square miles.

[StevenF]

After 2 pages of sportsball talk, I am half tempted to make a post about Tesla, SpaceX, NASA, Blue Origin and anything space related. This is almost as bad as the homeless chatter that happens every couple of months. This is why I think a Discord server would be good as we could set aside a channel for you guys to talk about these things and allow for the main channel to be about developments. Also, nobody from Denver complaining we are making too many threads.

P.S. Nothing against Denver. You guys in Denver like to keep things a little cleaner on the forum while we here in SLC like to show off what we get once or twice a decade. That does tend to end up in clutter.

[Wasatch Wasteland]

Originally Posted by StevenF

After 2 pages of sportsball talk, I am half tempted to make a post about Tesla, SpaceX, NASA, Blue Origin and anything space related. This is almost as bad as the homeless chatter that happens every couple of months. This is why I think a Discord server would be good as we could set aside a channel for you guys to talk about these things and allow for the main channel to be about developments. Also, nobody from Denver complaining we are making too many threads.

P.S. Nothing against Denver. You guys in Denver like to keep things a little cleaner on the forum while we here in SLC like to show off what we get once or twice a decade. That does tend to end up in clutter.

I don’t think we need any more channels for super specific topics. They die off anyways and get forgotten. Sports infrastructure is development, and the last few months there has been multiple gaps of a few days where hardly any development discussion is happening. I’m okay with (and I hope others are) okay with these conversations.

As far as the homeless goes, I think that that’s also a super relevant (albeit over discussed) topic, so I don’t believe it’s a bad thing to talk about. The greater issue with homelessness in America is its an issue that no one wants to talk about.

My point is that conversations are organic, and the discussions ebb and flow however they are supposed to. I don’t believe trying to dictate the exact topic of discussion for each thread and disavowing all else is productive, it inhibits the meaningful conversations that that approach is trying to promote.

People on this forum have tried to do or say that before. A lot of members who are actually really passionate and knowledgeable about super specific topics, a lot of whom hardly post much, get turned off when their contributions to the discussion are deemed “off topic” or “innapropriately placed” or something.

Also, as far as Denver goes, please don’t even say that name. I can already see the forum going downhill from here...

[Marvland]

[QUOTE=Stenar;8500887]

Originally Posted by Comrade

Also, SLC's PSA numbers are larger (barely) than San Antonio - not metros.
/QUOTE]

Our CSA should be our MSA, so I count it as such.

Also, the San Antonio MSA covers 7387 square miles. The Wasatch Front only covers 4245 square miles.

THIS. Our metro being split into three is stupid. This is a very low hanging fruit for Val Hale and Herbert. Reclassify into a metro because that's reality. On F500 companies, I've always wondered why people point to this in relation to franchises in small markets. Are they talking about HQ's or large presences? Utah has a large presence from a shit ton of massive companies, Rio Tinto ($145b market cap), Adobe Goldman etc. Not sure why it gets portrayed that we have no large companies. Our tech scene in generating billions of market cap every year, more so than any city listed above by LOTS. Plus, franchises happen because a rich person has a passion and pulls it together. How else does OKC steal the Sonics? Or how does Sam Batistone steal the Jazz? We have the most isolated metro in the country and that's the beauty. The tight markets in the east are just that - tight. The jazz kick attendance ass because they draw on all of the rural areas in Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana and northern Nevada. We just need a few rich mofos to put their heads together and we could have any franchise type they chose. SLC is a great location and would fit great in any major sport, but my vote is for MLB because of the lack of competition with the the Jazz. Sure, we could support NHL and that would be great but so could Boise. I just don't watch it so that's my problem. I probably would if we had a team though!

PS - anybody else have an issue on the mobile version of this forum where you get stuck in an eternal login loop?

[Stenar]

[QUOTE=Stenar;8500887]

Originally Posted by Comrade

Also, SLC's PSA numbers are larger (barely) than San Antonio - not metros.
/QUOTE]

Our CSA should be our MSA, so I count it as such.

Also, the San Antonio MSA covers 7387 square miles. The Wasatch Front only covers 4245 square miles.

Also, this figure (4245 square miles) includes about 1500 square miles of Utah county that isn't developed.

[Comrade]

[QUOTE=Stenar;8500887]

Originally Posted by Comrade

Also, SLC's PSA numbers are larger (barely) than San Antonio - not metros.
/QUOTE]

Our CSA should be our MSA, so I count it as such.

Also, the San Antonio MSA covers 7387 square miles. The Wasatch Front only covers 4245 square miles.

CSA or MSA, it doesn't matter. San Antonio has an equally large CSA within 100 miles of itself. Salt Lake doesn't. The entire San Antonio-Austin region has more people than the state of Utah. That's why San Antonio is seen as a more serious candidate for the NFL than Salt Lake. We bring, at the most, 3 million people to the table with the entire state of Utah. San Antonio-Austin, a region much smaller in square miles than Utah, brings over 4 million people - and that doesn't even include other parts of Texas, which happens to be the second biggest state in the country.

Again, this is a glossed over fact by many people who use Salt Lake's CSA and compare it to other cities. It's not just about the CSA. It's about the potential pool of fan support to pull from. Utah isn't a very large state. In fact, the closest state in terms of population with a NFL team is Louisiana and even then, they have over a million more people than Utah.

Nevada will change that when they get the Raiders but I think we all can concede Las Vegas is an exception to the rule. At the end of the day, no one is floating Arkansas or Kansas as NFL expansion locations and, to be honest, Utah has a lot more in common with those states than they do states with an NFL team.