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  #161  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 3:09 PM
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  #162  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 3:12 PM
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  #163  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 3:32 PM
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He was also brought in to turn CP around and make it a profitable railway (similar to what he did at CN).

He was not brought in to turn CP into a property developer.
Yes, that's exactly my point. He hates waste, and I have no doubt that he sees that line sitting on the books and says "why the heck do we have that line if we're not getting revenues from it?". So my guess is that he's directed management to dispose of it and get the best price possible. "Storage" and "training" really seem to me to be at odds with his M.O.

But if he's really playing some kind of mind game with the residents to apply pressure to the City to sell on his terms, I think the answer is to simply wait him out. I actually think it's more likely that they really do just want to price the asset and that's why they're clearing and surveying. You don't need to survey the property in order to store rolling stock on it.
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  #164  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 3:43 PM
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  #165  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 5:46 PM
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When trains actually roll on the line, then we'll see how strong the City is in their convictions.
But here's the thing - where are the trains going to roll to? The Vancouver segment of the line no longer services anyone. So the worst they can do is "training", which seems rather a stretch since the line is riddled with level crossings that the railway is prohibited from blocking for more than 5 minutes at a time. The "storage" concept seems more likely, but that's a pretty low-impact use of the line and it assumes that Hunter would tolerate idle rolling stock.

The City should be able to manage any pushback from the residents. They can open with posturing and the excuse that "it's federal railway land, we can't control what they do with it". When CP comes back and says that they would gladly sell it if they could realize a reasonable return then the City simply has to point out that CP's idea is to develop the heck out of it. That'll go over well with those on the west side.

Again, Hunter won't be there forever. I think the City's best bet is to simply wait him out.
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  #166  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 5:56 PM
GMasterAres GMasterAres is offline
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Why doesn't the city just do the honest thing and buy the land themselves? Delta purchased land off an owner of a portion of the Bog to preserve it as Bog land. I know the city has passed their community plan restricting what CP Rail can do but there is such a thing as honesty and integrity here. They want it to be just a greenway for cyclists and community gardens? Pony up some cash and buy it.

It would be no different than them suddenly for example changing the land plan to say all of Concord Pacific's remaining land can only become parks then sit there saying "hahah Concord suck that, now give us the land for free." Even though the courts said they had the authority, I just have a bit of a problem with them doing what they did.

Cities buy land for parks and greenways all the time.. well all the other cities seem to do that. Is CP asking too much? Or? Maybe I'm an ass but if I were CP I'd just run some locomotives through the line a few times a day really slowly blowing the horn at each crossing. Be surprised how quickly the citizens along that line would flip at city hall given it is an election year.
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  #167  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 6:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jhausner View Post
Why doesn't the city just do the honest thing and buy the land themselves?
They can't buy the land unless CP decides to sell it. And they can't expropriate the land because CP is a federally regulated company.

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It would be no different than them suddenly for example changing the land plan to say all of Concord Pacific's remaining land can only become parks then sit there saying "hahah Concord suck that, now give us the land for free." Even though the courts said they had the authority, I just have a bit of a problem with them doing what they did.
I understand where you're coming from, but IMHO the railways are a special case because they were originally given the land for free to use for the purposes of transportation. If the land is no longer commercially viable for freight haulage, then I think it's very reasonable of the City to force it's retention for other transportation uses. Transportation corridors are a precious resource and they shouldn't be squandered by a company looking to make a fast buck.
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  #168  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 6:11 PM
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  #169  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 6:15 PM
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  #170  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 6:33 PM
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Originally Posted by spm2013 View Post
The trains will roll from one end of the line to the other end.
I'm awfully skeptical about that. It seems like it would be a little too obvious a ploy on CP's part, and it doesn't sound like the kind of thing that Hunter Harrison, who hates waste, would condone.
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  #171  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 7:04 PM
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  #172  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 7:22 PM
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Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
But here's the thing - where are the trains going to roll to? The Vancouver segment of the line no longer services anyone. So the worst they can do is "training", which seems rather a stretch since the line is riddled with level crossings that the railway is prohibited from blocking for more than 5 minutes at a time. The "storage" concept seems more likely, but that's a pretty low-impact use of the line and it assumes that Hunter would tolerate idle rolling stock.

The City should be able to manage any pushback from the residents. They can open with posturing and the excuse that "it's federal railway land, we can't control what they do with it". When CP comes back and says that they would gladly sell it if they could realize a reasonable return then the City simply has to point out that CP's idea is to develop the heck out of it. That'll go over well with those on the west side.

Again, Hunter won't be there forever. I think the City's best bet is to simply wait him out.
Neither would Gregor if trains are running up and down Arbutus at night during the weeks leading up to the election. Something as simple and juvenile as a single "Midnight Express" down the Arubutus Corridor on Thursday, November 13th (They would give it a day to play out in the press) could sway a lot of voters.

You'll have the Westside electorate banging on Gregor's door, urging him to change the zoning so that the land can be developed so that CP can sell it off. That movement will be backed behind the scenes by all the developers in the city, eagerly looking for some empty, prime realestate to develop.

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Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
I'm awfully skeptical about that. It seems like it would be a little too obvious a ploy on CP's part, and it doesn't sound like the kind of thing that Hunter Harrison, who hates waste, would condone.
If he spends a few million dollars on fixing the tracks, putting in fences and running training trains up and down the corridor at any time of day he could more than quadruple the value of the land. A $2 million investment in antagonism could land the company the ability to sell that land piece by piece for upwards of $400 million.

More than 70 blocks for single family homes (2 houses on a block; 1 on each side of the street) running through wealthy parts of town alone could net $350 million at an average of $2.5 million per lot ( a teardown on the west side just sold for $3 million). What would the city be able to afford to pay?


The city does need this land and needs to hold out for as long as possible. Letting the land be sold off would be a travesty. It is the last uninterrupted corridor left in the city, perfect for transit. And while it is not critically needed now it will be one day when property is so expensive the only way it can be sold is for multi-family development. One day southwest Vancouver won't be a quiet sleepy suburb, but street upon street of row homes and low rise condos. And we will he happy that we saved that corridor for transit.

But I worry that Gregor doesn't have the backing or will to hold out. He is already pretty eager to sell of some public infrastructure to make a quick buck for his developer backers (the viaducts, granville loops).
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  #173  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 7:32 PM
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Originally Posted by BCPhil View Post
Neither would Gregor if trains are running up and down Arbutus at night during the weeks leading up to the election. Something as simple and juvenile as a single "Midnight Express" down the Arubutus Corridor on Thursday, November 13th (They would give it a day to play out in the press) could sway a lot of voters.
Perhaps I'm naive, but that would be such an obvious provocation on CP's part that it's hard to imagine very many people falling for it. And in the absence of any genuine goods movement need I think CP would risk a regulatory backlash. Given the federal government's recent willingness to dictate how they operate I'd be surprised if they'd want to go there...
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  #174  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 7:36 PM
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The question to me is:

Does ownership of the Arbutus Corridor by the City of Vancouver help or hurt the transit potential for the corridor?
The City is more easily swayed by municipal voters than the Province (or Translink).


Everyone seems to be assuming that ownership by the City is a good thing - it may provide more impediment to transit use in the future if alternate uses are established in the corridor (and given the restrictive zoning bylaw, who is more likely to establish alternate uses, the City or CP?)

Last edited by officedweller; May 16, 2014 at 8:34 PM.
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  #175  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 8:19 PM
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I agree, the city is ill prepared to be able to purchase the land and keep it long term w/o revenue coming in.
Not sure why anyone thinks the city can out wait CP on this. CP can and has proven the ability to use time to their advantage, they aren't limited to 3yr windows like council is.
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  #176  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 8:58 PM
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  #177  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 10:17 PM
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In the long term, either the Province or TransLink for rapid transit.

The City does not operate transit (and has not moved on the downtown streetcar, and has killed the heritage streetcar) and wrestling away real estate from it would be difficult.

Here's a question I don't know the answer to -
Who owns the Interurban RoW through Vancouver and Burnaby?
Who owns the BC Parkway lands below SkyTrain?
Who owns the Central Valley Greenway Lands along (but not quite below) Millennium Line?
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  #178  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
Does ownership of the Arbutus Corridor by the City of Vancouver help or hurt the transit potential for the corridor?
The City is more easily swayed by municipal voters than the Province (or Translink).
CP is certainly not going to install a greenway with pedestrian and cycle paths. And they certainly won't institute any sort of transit service. CP won't do anything to the line that benefits the community at all. All they'll do is sell it to the highest bidder.

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Originally Posted by jlousa View Post
I agree, the city is ill prepared to be able to purchase the land and keep it long term w/o revenue coming in.
Not sure why anyone thinks the city can out wait CP on this. CP can and has proven the ability to use time to their advantage, they aren't limited to 3yr windows like council is.
The city doesn't need revenue, they don't have to pay property taxes on the land. The land represented by the Arbutus corridor is a small fraction of all the street rights of way in the city and it doesn't get any revenue from that.

And new long-term plans for every aspect of city life aren't created with every election. There are lots of long-term plans which are inherited and followed by successive councils because they're obviously in the best interests of the city.
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  #179  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 10:27 PM
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Maybe they can do a land swap.
That's actually a very interesting idea and it might well be a good way out of the current impasse.
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  #180  
Old Posted May 16, 2014, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
CP is certainly not going to install a greenway with pedestrian and cycle paths. And they certainly won't institute any sort of transit service. CP won't do anything to the line that benefits the community at all. All they'll do is sell it to the highest bidder.
Sounds smart.
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