Scotiabank Centre

[MonctonRad]

An arena belongs downtown. No question. A football stadium however, not so much.

Building the Avenir Centre in downtown Moncton, replacing the old suburban coliseum has made all the difference in atmosphere at the Wildcats games, and the arena has been a tremendous catalyst for surrounding development. Scotiabank Centre is starting to get a bit long in the tooth, and a replacement venue may be in order in the next 10-15 years. I don't know what the appropriate size should be, but something around 15,000 seems reasonable. In any event, it must be built downtown, especially to take advantage of the existing inventory of surrounding hotels and restaurants.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Reesor

Lots of talk about a need for a stadium. I think a new 15 - 16,000 seat arena (as long as they can get it downtown) would make more money in the long run for the city. More Mooseheads and Thunderbirds fans might go for season tickets if they don't have to worry about the the view from the upper bowl. Honestly I don't think it's that bad, but a lot of people do.

I've been thinking about this over the past week or so and I think i've settled on whenever HRM decides to replace the Metro Centre a new build around 14-15K would be suitable. As you say, it needs to remain downtown, but I will leave that debate up to Haligonians. Given the size and growth in the market I think that's a suitable size and services a bit more than the current building.

[ericmacm]

It is hard to beat the current location of Scotiabank Centre, given that it is right downtown and that the Nova Centre is also nearby as a hotel option for visiting teams. The entire block that includes the arena and the office building directly adjacent to it can fit an arena with a bowl roughly the size of Canada Life Centre, which is in that ~15,000 seat range that would be ideal. A sizeable concourse also fits within the boundaries of the block. The big issues for this area would be having to dig a fairly deep excavation closer to the west end of the block due to the sloping grade, and the obvious issue of the Mooseheads/Thunderbirds needing to find new homes during construction.

I made a mockup for fun a while back in my Pan-Canadian Future Skylines model for Halifax:

HFXStadium by Eric MacMillan, on Flickr

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by Reesor

^^ don't know where they got 41 extra seats from, as a usual sellout is 10,595. Likely a record that will never be broken unless it is broken tonight, or unless they add more seats somewhere.

Lots of talk about a need for a stadium. I think a new 15 - 16,000 seat arena (as long as they can get it downtown) would make more money in the long run for the city. More Mooseheads and Thunderbirds fans might go for season tickets if they don't have to worry about the the view from the upper bowl. Honestly I don't think it's that bad, but a lot of people do.

I realize one cannot snap their fingers and have land downtown magically appear for a new modern arena. I think building downtown would be paramount for the success of a new arena. Even though Dartmouth Crossing and Bayers Lake have all the space, recent experience with modern arenas tells us that building those arenas on the outskirts rather than in the center core of cities, no matter the size of the city, usually results in worse than expected attendances and less than desired economic impacts for the city.

I forget if it was on here or elsewhere, but someone at some point theorized that the block that encompasses Barrington, Cogswell, Brunswick and Cornwallis Streets would have the dimensions necessary for a modern 15000 seat arena. That block I believe currently has a self-storage place, and apartment complex, a parking garage and a number of townhouses. If it was possible to build a suitable arena on that land, it wouldn't be entirely out of the realm of possibility for the city to start purchasing part of the area now for some sort of 10 year plan to make an arena. You can't just kick people out of their homes. But with planning it could happen over time.

Never thought of there, that could work and there maybe a bit of extra room there with the Cogswell coming down. I was also thinking the VG site might be another area that would be available in a few years and is already land owned by the province, but having it right downtown would be much better!

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by ericmacm

It is hard to beat the current location of Scotiabank Centre, given that it is right downtown and that the Nova Centre is also nearby as a hotel option for visiting teams. The entire block that includes the arena and the office building directly adjacent to it can fit an arena with a bowl roughly the size of Canada Life Centre, which is in that ~15,000 seat range that would be ideal. A sizeable concourse also fits within the boundaries of the block. The big issues for this area would be having to dig a fairly deep excavation closer to the west end of the block due to the sloping grade, and the obvious issue of the Mooseheads/Thunderbirds needing to find new homes during construction.

I made a mockup for fun a while back in my Pan-Canadian Future Skylines model for Halifax:

HFXStadium by Eric MacMillan, on Flickr

Yeah I was wondering if that could work. To me that would be the best option other than not having access to an arena for a few years.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by ericmacm

It is hard to beat the current location of Scotiabank Centre, given that it is right downtown and that the Nova Centre is also nearby as a hotel option for visiting teams. The entire block that includes the arena and the office building directly adjacent to it can fit an arena with a bowl roughly the size of Canada Life Centre, which is in that ~15,000 seat range that would be ideal. A sizeable concourse also fits within the boundaries of the block. The big issues for this area would be having to dig a fairly deep excavation closer to the west end of the block due to the sloping grade, and the obvious issue of the Mooseheads/Thunderbirds needing to find new homes during construction.

I made a mockup for fun a while back in my Pan-Canadian Future Skylines model for Halifax:

HFXStadium by Eric MacMillan, on Flickr

This would make a good location, but the old convention centre has been recently renovated into an arts centre with (much-needed) performance space, film and TV studios, a cinema, etc. I imagine that takes it off the table for demolition and redevelopment. Then there's the problem of not having an arena at all while the site is redeveloped.

The only other place I could really imagine something like this going would be the Cogswell site. Generally I'd rather see that whole site being used for new housing, but presumably the old Scotiabank arena could be demolished and turned into a residential development, so it almost be a draw.

[Reesor]

Halifax happens to have the Forum, which currently sits 4700. If I recall correctly it will be renovated which will actually remove seats, as actual seats will replace the bench seats at the top. The roof is being replaced which would get rid of the beams that block the view.

It would be a painful couple seasons for the Mooseheads and the Thunderbirds. It would also be a painful couple seasons for the houses that have cars constantly parking in front of them, and the businesses downtown that miss the economic impact of the arena downtown. But the Forum could be a very temporary option if they wanted to use it. Would be a fantastic atmosphere for those sporting events but it would cost them money in the short term. The long term economic benefit of a modern arena with great views might be worth it.

Moncton Thunderbirds for two seasons?

[Empire]

You might be able to shoehorn a 16,000 seat arena on the Piercy brownfield lands? The current Scotiabank Centre could become a movie production studio / soundstage and be connected to the newly renovated arts hub. You could save 2-3000 seats to create a great concert venue.

30min. walk to downtown. Think of the bars etc. on Agricola en route....and this area could be the new downtown.

Source - Google Maps:

Piercy Lands:
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.6587...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/place/63...!4d-63.6001185

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by Reesor

Halifax happens to have the Forum, which currently sits 4700. If I recall correctly it will be renovated which will actually remove seats, as actual seats will replace the bench seats at the top. The roof is being replaced which would get rid of the beams that block the view.

It would be a painful couple seasons for the Mooseheads and the Thunderbirds. It would also be a painful couple seasons for the houses that have cars constantly parking in front of them, and the businesses downtown that miss the economic impact of the arena downtown. But the Forum could be a very temporary option if they wanted to use it. Would be a fantastic atmosphere for those sporting events but it would cost them money in the short term. The long term economic benefit of a modern arena with great views might be worth it.

Moncton Thunderbirds for two seasons?

HRM also has the Dartmouth Sportsplex just across the harbor. I attended a John Mellancamp concert there a couple of years ago so there are options. I have always thought the Scotiabank footprint could fit a larger arena when orientated in a East West configuration. The Juniors has electrified the City beyond the usual Halifax nightlife. James Duthie was quoted on the local CTV broadcast yesterday saying that both he and Bob MacKenzie think its the best tournament in the last twenty years. Twenty years ago of course Halifax also hosted but Ovechkin won that one for Russia.

Perhaps Halifax should be the semi permanent home for when the Worlds juniors play in Canada.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

Perhaps Halifax should be the semi permanent home for when the Worlds juniors play in Canada.

And Moncton of course.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

And Moncton of course.

But of course, both Cities put on a heck of a show.

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by Empire

You might be able to shoehorn a 16,000 seat arena on the Piercy brownfield lands? The current Scotiabank Centre could become a movie production studio / soundstage and be connected to the newly renovated arts hub. You could save 2-3000 seats to create a great concert venue.

30min. walk to downtown. Think of the bars etc. on Agricola en route....and this area could be the new downtown.

Source - Google Maps:

Piercy Lands:
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.6587...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/place/63...!4d-63.6001185

And give up a relatively open, potentially high density residential/commercial area that already has a relatively large sports facility nearby? Doesn't seem worth it. Redeveloping the current space seems like a better option.

[Reesor]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

HRM also has the Dartmouth Sportsplex just across the harbor. I attended a John Mellancamp concert there a couple of years ago so there are options. I have always thought the Scotiabank footprint could fit a larger arena when orientated in a East West configuration. The Juniors has electrified the City beyond the usual Halifax nightlife. James Duthie was quoted on the local CTV broadcast yesterday saying that both he and Bob MacKenzie think its the best tournament in the last twenty years. Twenty years ago of course Halifax also hosted but Ovechkin won that one for Russia.

Perhaps Halifax should be the semi permanent home for when the Worlds juniors play in Canada.

Halifax and Moncton were exactly what Hockey Canada needed to jump start the hype surrounding the tournament. Marketing is a funny thing. If this was hosted in Ottawa and they averaged 10,000 per game and 15,000 (in an 18,000 seat arena) for Canada games, people would be wondering why they didn't sell out, even though the tournament would make much more than it did in Halifax/Moncton.

Creating that hype will help the tournament down the road. My 2 cents is on the 2025 tournament being in an NHL market, or at the very least Saskatoon/Regina where they can market as a "junior hockey market" despite Saskatoon having an NHL-sized arena.

The tournament should be in Canada every 3rd year. Gotta grow the game elsewhere. At the very most it should be twice in a 5 year span. It looks like it's going to be in Detroit or Minneapolis in 2026 which will be like it being in Canada with the amount of Canadian fans that will attend. If it's in Canada every 3rd year, it'll likely have to go through Vancouver, Edmonton/Calgary, Saskatoon/Regina, Winnipeg, Toronto/Montreal & Ottawa before making its way back to Halifax. And if junior hockey markets are now a thing and get included, places like Kamloops/Kelowna, London/Kitchener, & Quebec City/Sherbrooke/Rimouski would have to be strongly considered as well. Do you reward Moncton by having it in Moncton/Saint John one year? There are so many options that I'm afraid it might be a while before it is back here. By then, hopefully, Halifax has a modern arena.

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by Reesor

Halifax and Moncton were exactly what Hockey Canada needed to jump start the hype surrounding the tournament. Marketing is a funny thing. If this was hosted in Ottawa and they averaged 10,000 per game and 15,000 (in an 18,000 seat arena) for Canada games, people would be wondering why they didn't sell out, even though the tournament would make much more than it did in Halifax/Moncton.

Creating that hype will help the tournament down the road. My 2 cents is on the 2025 tournament being in an NHL market, or at the very least Saskatoon/Regina where they can market as a "junior hockey market" despite Saskatoon having an NHL-sized arena.

The tournament should be in Canada every 3rd year. Gotta grow the game elsewhere. At the very most it should be twice in a 5 year span. It looks like it's going to be in Detroit or Minneapolis in 2026 which will be like it being in Canada with the amount of Canadian fans that will attend. If it's in Canada every 3rd year, it'll likely have to go through Vancouver, Edmonton/Calgary, Saskatoon/Regina, Winnipeg, Toronto/Montreal & Ottawa before making its way back to Halifax. And if junior hockey markets are now a thing and get included, places like Kamloops/Kelowna, London/Kitchener, & Quebec City/Sherbrooke/Rimouski would have to be strongly considered as well. Do you reward Moncton by having it in Moncton/Saint John one year? There are so many options that I'm afraid it might be a while before it is back here. By then, hopefully, Halifax has a modern arena.

I don't think you could get away with a Saint John / Moncton host. I think you need at least one arena that has 10k+ seats. Saint John is about 7.5k and Moncton is about 8k.

Although I could see a possible Halifax / Saint John but with Avenir being the newer arena and closer to Halifax I don't see why they would.

[Reesor]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

I don't think you could get away with a Saint John / Moncton host. I think you need at least one arena that has 10k+ seats. Saint John is about 7.5k and Moncton is about 8k.

Although I could see a possible Halifax / Saint John but with Avenir being the newer arena and closer to Halifax I don't see why they would.

That's the problem with the notion that the tournament should be in junior hockey markets. I believe Halifax has the largest rink in Canada that isn't NHL sized. The others that are close are Place Bell in Laval (they would just use the Bell Center) and the Ottawa Civic Center (they would just use the Canadian Tire Center). There are a lot of 7000+ seat arenas in other junior hockey markets but nothing over 10,000. London has 9100. So if you restrict the capacity to 10,000+ for the main arena, it takes out every Junior hockey market except Halifax, Quebec City and Saskatoon, the last two of which have NHL-sized arenas.

It all depends on the strategy of Hockey Canada. They'll always make more money in larger markets. Halifax/Moncton have a combined Metro area of around 720,000. Total fans in seats for this tournament was 221,904. which is about 36,000 less than they did in Toronto/Montreal 6 years ago, in two NHL-sized arenas with a total Metro area of over 10 million. It looks super impressive, but they still made more money in NHL markets, and that's the problem. All the hype in the world might not matter if more money is made in bigger markets.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

And give up a relatively open, potentially high density residential/commercial area that already has a relatively large sports facility nearby? Doesn't seem worth it. Redeveloping the current space seems like a better option.

It would be very expensive to redevelop the current space and the net gain would be minimal. Seating has been maxed out with the addition of skyboxes. This came at a price as the view from the upper bowl is impeded for several rows from the roof. The only wall left is the Duke St. side and there would be no opportunity to expand a small upper bowl section here because it would extend over Duke St. I don’t think demolishing the former Trade Center would be an option.

The Piercy land is ready to go and there is ample open space in the area for high density residential development. In fact this would be a major catalyst for the area including hotel development. 15,000+ seats would make it NHL ready. This location has good transit routes. Constant shuttles would run downtown during events.

[MonctonRad]

The Avenir Centre seats 8,800 for hockey, making it the 16th largest hockey arena in Canada.

Scotiabank Centre seats 10,595, making it the 12th largest hockey arena in the country. My source is Wikipedia. q12 claims 11,200 including skyboxes, but this does not change the arenas #12 ranking in terms of size.

The two venues complement each other very well. FWIW, TD Station in Saint John seats 6,603 for hockey (#23 in Canada).

I think Halifax/Moncton impressed the IIHF very much. They have said so, and I think they were actually very sincere in their praise. There was total buy-in by the two cities and the two provinces. Both venues had lots of events surrounding the tournament, and the crowds were very enthusiastic. I think it would be very difficult to replicate this atmosphere in a larger city with professional teams and used to hosting major events.

I think our arena sizes are acceptable. The combined seating capacity of the two arenas is 20,000. Their ranking (#12 & #16) is pretty decent. Seven of the larger rinks are NHL arenas. The other arenas are widely spaced across the country, making it difficult to mount a two city bid. Halifax and Moncton have the advantage of being only 250 km apart.

I honestly think our efforts will be rewarded and that if we ever made a joint bid again, that it would be taken very seriously.

Having said this though, I doubt we will see the World Juniors here again for another 15 years or so.

[Keith P.]

In its infinite myopia, HRM turned down the opportunity to purchase the old WTCC site for a relative bargain price a few years ago. Refusing that made zero sense as it would have served as much needed office space for HRM's ballooning bureaucracy and saved them lease costs elsewhere, while providing options for a future possible redevelopment of the arena.

The existing arena has a number of shortcomings despite ongoing renos and the success it has had hosting events like the Juniors. It has limited concourse space, a number of narrow, steep internal stairways, challenging elevations for those who are disabled, and of course the N-S orientation has it landlocked. The addition of skyboxes by Fast Freddie MacGillivray years ago may have enhanced revenue but compromised a number of sightlines inside the building.

I wonder how difficult it would be to raise the roof somehow and construct a new upper bowl level with relocated skyboxes. HRM does have the advantage of owning the surrounding streets. Could they take over part of Carmichael, Duke or Brunswick to expand the building, or at least cantilever an expansion over those? All such options should be explored before looking at other sites. The other option that makes the most sense is to scrap the ill-considered Forum redevelopment boondoggle and construct a new arena there of appropriate size.

[Empire]

The Sask Tel Centre in Saskstoon has a capacity of 15,195 and is not exactly in the downtown bar district. The Videotron Centre in Quebec with a capacity of 18,259 is removed from the city centre as well.

Ref. Google Maps

Sask Tel Centre:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@52.18688...7i16384!8i8192

Videotron Centre - Quebec
https://www.google.ca/maps/@46.82867...7i16384!8i8192

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Empire

The Sask Tel Centre in Saskstoon has a capacity of 15,195 and is not exactly in the downtown bar district.

But being downtown and next to hotels, bars and restaurants is a major bonus, especially in terms of convenience and creating atmosphere around a tournament such as this.

The Avenir Centre is stimulating the creation of a similar district in Moncton's downtown west end. The Crowne Plaza was pre-existent, but since the Avenir Centre was constructed, a Hilton Garden Inn and a Hyatt Place Hotel have been constructed, and new restaurants are coming on line (Carrabba's, Monk 10, Baton Rouge etc). More is on the way.

I agree with the general consensus that the Scotiabank Centre should be rebuilt on it's current site, but oriented east-west, and the capacity should be increased to about 15,000.