Highway 107 Upgrades (Burnside Expressway) | U/C

[Mr.Zero33]

They just started clearing trees near the CN Rail overpass (Quarry side) on Rocky Lake Drive in the past couple of days.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Is there any reason why there are roundabouts all all the exit points for this new connector at Burnside?

Roundabouts are not particularly friendly for 18 wheelers. For instance, there is a dogbone roundabout in Moncton over Highway 15 at Dieppe/Harrisville Blvd, which has heavy truck traffic as it is the connector between the Dieppe and Caledonia industrial parks. This is a double lane roundabout, and because of the tight turning radius, any tractor trailer traversing the roundabout will take up both lanes. A special bulletin was broadcast over the airwaves in Moncton when the roundabout opened to notify motorists to give tractor trailers the right of way when they were in transit.

I don't generally mind roundabouts that much, but in certain circumstances they may not be the best answer in order to maintain traffic flow.......

I don't see that as being a lot different than 18 wheelers having to take wide turns to navigate many regular intersections.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

It doesn't matter that a lot of drivers hate them or don't know how to use them

You're absolutely right, it doesn't matter.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by OliverD

I don't see that as being a lot different than 18 wheelers having to take wide turns to navigate many regular intersections.

That's not a reason to make roundabouts equally difficult.

[Keith P.]

I happened to head up to the top of Akerley Blvd today en route to points beyond and had to navigate these accursed things. As bad as the previous "snakes" switchback curves were, this roundabout is worse because it is positioned at the crest of a hill and gives no visibility as to where a driver may want to go, so it is a very uncertain proposition as to what lane to choose or exit to take. For the moment at least the signage is useless as well. I predict many crashes here.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

That's not a reason to make roundabouts equally difficult.

Roundabouts have two primary purposes: Increase traffic flow and prevent dangerous accidents that can lead to injury or death. Making roundabouts large enough so that 18 wheelers can navigate them without having to cross over lanes generally defeats those purposes.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by OliverD

Roundabouts have two primary purposes: Increase traffic flow and prevent dangerous accidents that can lead to injury or death. Making roundabouts large enough so that 18 wheelers can navigate them without having to cross over lanes generally defeats those purposes.

You've lost me. How does making roundabouts "large enough so that 18-wheelers can navigate them without having to cross over lanes" defeat the purpose of preventing dangerous accidents? I don't follow that reasoning.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

You've lost me. How does making roundabouts "large enough so that 18-wheelers can navigate them without having to cross over lanes" defeat the purpose of preventing dangerous accidents? I don't follow that reasoning.

Roundabout proponents do not categorize accidents that take place in them as dangerous, even if it means the wheels of an 18-wheeler's trailer drive over your car. The only dangerous accidents are those that take place in other types of intersections. A truly handy definition.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Roundabout proponents do not categorize accidents that take place in them as dangerous, even if it means the wheels of an 18-wheeler's trailer drive over your car. The only dangerous accidents are those that take place in other types of intersections. A truly handy definition.

I mean, the possibility of a t-bone or head-on accident or something similar is effectively nill in a roundabout, whereas they're far more likely in a standard + intersection. They're the most dangerous accidents for motorists. Accidents are statistically less likely to be fatal in roundabouts because cars are directed to be moving in a similar direction. This is incredibly simple to understand.

This isn't to say that accidents don't happen in roundabouts but more that they're less fatal and less dangerous than accidents in standard intersections.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I mean, the possibility of a t-bone or head-on accident or something similar is effectively nill in a roundabout, whereas they're far more likely in a standard + intersection. They're the most dangerous accidents for motorists. Accidents are statistically less likely to be fatal in roundabouts because cars are directed to be moving in a similar direction. This is incredibly simple to understand.

This isn't to say that accidents don't happen in roundabouts but more that they're less fatal and less dangerous than accidents in standard intersections.

Which is all well and good, but it doesn't explain the seeming illogic of OliverD's statement. Unless I'm missing something obvious (always a possibility), what he said boils down to "making roundabouts safer doesn't make roundabouts safer".

[DigitalNinja]

Roundabouts are safer.

When a tractor trailer enters a roundabout it is supposed to straddle the middle of both lanes. It is illegal for a vehicle to drive up next to a tractor trailer in a roundabout.

With a maximum speed of 30KPH usually and as noted no possibility for a head on or T-bone accident injuries to vehicle occupants and greatly reduced.

I do not think that Halifax has designed crosswalks in roundabouts well though. They are too close to the entrance of the roundabout and usually like at the Larry Uteck ones pedestrians need to use 2 crosswalks to cross fully.

I think it would be much better if the crosswalks were back from the roundabouts as it allows better visibility for drivers to see someone crossing - especially when focusing on traffic you only have to look in 1 direction but need to look in 2 directions for pedestrians.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by DigitalNinja

Roundabouts are safer.

I've never disputed that roundabouts, appropriately placed, are safer, and I don't think this discussion is necessarily about "roundabouts good" v. "roundabouts bad". But they're definitely not necessarily the best solution to every traffic congestion problem in every circumstance.

It is illegal for a vehicle to drive up next to a tractor trailer in a roundabout.

Illegal? You won't find that anywhere in the NS Motor Vehicle Act or the regulations issued pursuant to it. It may be a dumb thing to do (sometimes potentially fatal, even), but not in and of itself illegal in every instance. In general, it would be illegal only if it were unsafe to do so in the specific circumstances involved, but that's true everywhere, not just on roundabouts.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

You've lost me. How does making roundabouts "large enough so that 18-wheelers can navigate them without having to cross over lanes" defeat the purpose of preventing dangerous accidents? I don't follow that reasoning.

Because that increases the speed at which traffic drives through the roundabout, which results in accidents happening at a higher speed, although you still avoid perpendicular t-bones and head on collisions. The other side effect is that it also makes it more difficult to enter the roundabout, particularly when there is more traffic.

[DigitalNinja]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Illegal? You won't find that anywhere in the NS Motor Vehicle Act or the regulations issued pursuant to it. It may be a dumb thing to do (sometimes potentially fatal, even), but not in and of itself illegal in every instance. In general, it would be illegal only if it were unsafe to do so in the specific circumstances involved, but that's true everywhere, not just on roundabouts.

Okay, maybe not illegal - however I have found drivers at fault under tort law for attempting to pass a tractor trailer within a roundabout.

Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

I've also found that highway exits with a roundabout back up far less than those with lights. IE some of the Sackville ones vs Larry Uteck.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by OliverD

Because that increases the speed at which traffic drives through the roundabout, which results in accidents happening at a higher speed, although you still avoid perpendicular t-bones and head on collisions. The other side effect is that it also makes it more difficult to enter the roundabout, particularly when there is more traffic.

That does make sense. I guess I was just being slow.

So standard roundabout design specifically contemplates - in fact, requires - large vehicles to straddle lanes? Interesting. I think the average driver would be surprised to hear that, as it's counter-intuitive from a "rules of the road" perspective ("stay in your lane!"). Perhaps public education on that would help. I imagine the reaction of the average driver to that phenomenon is probably "this damn roundabout wasn't designed for tractor-trailers - it's not big enough".

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by DigitalNinja

Okay, maybe not illegal - however I have found drivers at fault under tort law for attempting to pass a tractor trailer within a roundabout.

Of course. If it's unsafe to do, and could have been avoided, then negligence will probably be found in a civil action. In such a case, it likely would also be illegal in the sense of a statutory violation (and therefore ticketable) in that it's prohibited by one or more sections of the MVA.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

So standard roundabout design specifically contemplates - in fact, requires - large vehicles to straddle lanes? Interesting. I think the average driver would be surprised to hear that, as it's counter-intuitive from a "rules of the road" perspective ("stay in your lane!"). Perhaps public education on that would help. I imagine the reaction of the average driver to that phenomenon is probably "this damn roundabout wasn't designed for tractor-trailers - it's not big enough".

And some say roundabouts aren't confusing to most drivers...

So apparently it's OK to swap lanes and veer from side to side in a roundabout, unless it isn't.

[Half-Axed]

Originally Posted by DigitalNinja

I do not think that Halifax has designed crosswalks in roundabouts well though. They are too close to the entrance of the roundabout and usually like at the Larry Uteck ones pedestrians need to use 2 crosswalks to cross fully.

I think it would be much better if the crosswalks were back from the roundabouts as it allows better visibility for drivers to see someone crossing - especially when focusing on traffic you only have to look in 1 direction but need to look in 2 directions for pedestrians.

Despite other differences in opinion on roundabouts, several of us have mentioned those crosswalks throughoutc this discussion.

I think it's the one thing we can all agree on.

(Except that now that I've said it someone will disagree because that's how the internet works. )

[Saul Goode]

Never mind...deleted my comment...I thought better of prolonging this...

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

[/QUOTE]

I noticed this past week that the Anderson Lake connector area is now cleard of trees. I'm perplexed now on how this connector will be accessed by the Bedford Bypass lane on the Bedford side of the hwy. Overpasses? There is not much space between the bypass and residences on southwest (Bedford) side of the bypass.