PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread II

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by mja

As I said earlier, they may have a few blind spots. I do think they struggle to understand sometimes why their priorities are not more widely-shared and tend to get pushback. Bike lanes are very commonly associated with gentrification. So is dog ownership. So is brunch. So are beer gardens. All things enjoyed by many 30 year olds who consider themselves progressive, but longtime residents don't necessarily view change as being for them, and can resent being told that this or that new way of doing things is a better way to live. They don't necessarily want bike lanes, or dog parks, or new brunch spots, or pop-up beer gardens, and dismissing their concerns - i.e. why would we need to study bike lanes, let's just make more of them, they're better for everyone - is not helpful, even if those concerns are ultimately unfounded.



While I agree that Tony can be a bit over the top on this (and a few other things), I believe he's from that community, his take on this aligns with what my understanding of the general sentiment is of that community (especially among it's older members), and frankly the bike-splaining going on hasn't been a great look coming from progressives concerned with equity.

That’s the thing, I really don’t mean to be disrespectful. I just want people to have other transportation options that don’t cost $400+ a month. Bikes are a great way to move people <5 miles and a vast majority of trips in CC are under that number.

[SEFTA]

I often wonder what the demographics of this forum is

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

That’s the thing, I really don’t mean to be disrespectful. I just want people to have other transportation options that don’t cost $400+ a month. Bikes are a great way to move people <5 miles and a vast majority of trips in CC are under that number.

SEPTA costs more than $400 a month? Even the most expensive zone 5 trailpass costs less than that.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by cardeza

SEPTA costs more than $400 a month? Even the most expensive zone 5 trailpass costs less than that.

No of course SEPTA doesn’t cost $400 a month, but it does cost about $100/month. It’s all about giving people options and having good last mile connections (particularly with the bus revolution and SEPTA moving to fewer bus routes.) Sometimes it’s fastest to take SEPTA, sometimes it’s fastest to bike, and sometimes it’s fastest to combine both modes of transportation (ride to your bus/train stop) depending on where you’re going. They’re not mutually exclusive.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

No of course SEPTA doesn’t cost $400 a month, but it does cost about $100/month. It’s all about giving people options and having good last mile connections (particularly with the bus revolution and SEPTA moving to fewer bus routes.) Sometimes it’s fastest to take SEPTA, sometimes it’s fastest to bike, and sometimes it’s fastest to combine both modes of transportation (ride to your bus/train stop) depending on where you’re going. They’re not mutually exclusive.

I got that, but the inference that biking is the only way to avoid all the costs of car ownership in a city like Philly is a bit of a stretch. Way before biking became a cultural thing there were hundreds of thousands in this city living car free- mostly out of necessity. This is probably one of the easiest cities to live in without a car unless you live in far NE or NW.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

I don’t understand. What would this mean? Greyhound is moving to a new location so the arena is looking like a go?

That's how I took it. The address listed was that entire stretch of store fronts. I'm not sure why he took it down. Thinking that entire structure could potentially be a bus station. Now, I'd imagine something cooler would be great but they could make a super cool looking bus station there.

I dunno. Maybe I jumped a few too many steps on this.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by Justin7

It's one thing to (rightfully, I think) point out that bike lanes are viewed either as a very low priority or a net negative by a majority of voters in the city. It's another thing to be insulting to someone who is attempting to explain to you (rightfully so) why and how they would benefit poorer areas.

Maybe spend some time looking into how bike lanes improve safety for everyone while also reducing congestion for those who need to or choose to drive and if you're unwilling to do that maybe just try not to be an asshole.

Originally Posted by mja

As I said earlier, they may have a few blind spots. I do think they struggle to understand sometimes why their priorities are not more widely-shared and tend to get pushback. Bike lanes are very commonly associated with gentrification. So is dog ownership. So is brunch. So are beer gardens. All things enjoyed by many 30 year olds who consider themselves progressive, but longtime residents don't necessarily view change as being for them, and can resent being told that this or that new way of doing things is a better way to live. They don't necessarily want bike lanes, or dog parks, or new brunch spots, or pop-up beer gardens, and dismissing their concerns - i.e. why would we need to study bike lanes, let's just make more of them, they're better for everyone - is not helpful, even if those concerns are ultimately unfounded.


While I agree that Tony can be a bit over the top on this (and a few other things), I believe he's from that community, his take on this aligns with what my understanding of the general sentiment is of that community (especially among it's older members), and frankly the bike-splaining going on hasn't been a great look coming from progressives concerned with equity.

Originally Posted by cardeza

I got that, but the inference that biking is the only way to avoid all the costs of car ownership in a city like Philly is a bit of a stretch. Way before biking became a cultural thing there were hundreds of thousands in this city living car free- mostly out of necessity. This is probably one of the easiest cities to live in without a car unless you live in far NE or NW.

Different Demographics do different things.

Do some people in the black community ride bikes? Yes a small percentage compared to white communities but it's there, however cars & even septa are the main modes of transportation.

it like this, if you took a side of parking out 15th St starting from Erie all the way down to Spring Garden, you'll have an upset community, and a bike lane that is going mostly unused.

Go to Front & Lehigh & stand at that corner. stare at the bike lane all day, you'll be lucky to see 5 bikes riding the bike lane. you'll see cars, and scooters on it before a bike.

What a lot of people tend to forget is that the black community is more conservative then people think, yes we may vote Democrat, but its Center right.

Vehicles are also viewed as freedom to get around without a hassle, and some of you guys are forgetting some people buy cars straight out without a car payment so thats not an issue.

I remember I was talking to my friend and I told him "hey instead of walking get a bike it would make your commute faster"

He laughed at the idea, and he got a motorcycle.

The mindset for bikes in the community are different, and the energy for bike lanes in certain communities is just not there. and thats ok every neighborhood is different, and thats perfectly fine.

[el don]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Different Demographics do different things.

Do some people in the black community ride bikes? Yes a small percentage compared to white communities but it's there, however cars & even septa are the main modes of transportation.

it like this, if you took a side of parking out 15th St starting from Erie all the way down to Spring Garden, you'll have an upset community, and a bike lane that is going mostly unused.

Go to Front & Lehigh & stand at that corner. stare at the bike lane all day, you'll be lucky to see 5 bikes riding the bike lane. you'll see cars, and scooters on it before a bike.

What a lot of people tend to forget is that the black community is more conservative then people think, yes we may vote Democrat, but its Center right.

Vehicles are also viewed as freedom to get around without a hassle, and some of you guys are forgetting some people buy cars straight out without a car payment so thats not an issue.

I remember I was talking to my friend and I told him "hey instead of walking get a bike it would make your commute faster"

He laughed at the idea, and he got a motorcycle.

The mindset for bikes in the community are different, and the energy for bike lanes in certain communities is just not there. and thats ok every neighborhood is different, and thats perfectly fine.

That's cause Ricans don't ride bikes much either. Now stealing them...

I also wonder the demographics of the forum sometimes as well.

[Knight Hospitaller]

^I'm pretty sure I'm the only monarchist with lots of kids. ;-)

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Different Demographics do different things.

Do some people in the black community ride bikes? Yes a small percentage compared to white communities but it's there, however cars & even septa are the main modes of transportation.

it like this, if you took a side of parking out 15th St starting from Erie all the way down to Spring Garden, you'll have an upset community, and a bike lane that is going mostly unused.

Go to Front & Lehigh & stand at that corner. stare at the bike lane all day, you'll be lucky to see 5 bikes riding the bike lane. you'll see cars, and scooters on it before a bike.

What a lot of people tend to forget is that the black community is more conservative then people think, yes we may vote Democrat, but its Center right.

Vehicles are also viewed as freedom to get around without a hassle, and some of you guys are forgetting some people buy cars straight out without a car payment so thats not an issue.

I remember I was talking to my friend and I told him "hey instead of walking get a bike it would make your commute faster"

He laughed at the idea, and he got a motorcycle.

The mindset for bikes in the community are different, and the energy for bike lanes in certain communities is just not there. and thats ok every neighborhood is different, and thats perfectly fine.

If you buy a car in cash and don’t have a payment, you’ve still spent the money. You just did it all at once. Anyways, let’s move on. We’re just gonna start talking in circles.

[Frontst17]

Not saying Tony is wrong in general, but a significant amount of people I see riding bikes in the city are black or persons of color. At least in Nw and South Philly where I am mostly. Not necessarily for commuting that I know of but for basic transportation I see bikes heavily used. I do agree there is a vocal majority who think it’s a waste of money and space to build bike infrastructure, but I think there’s a stereotype that this is being done to attract wealthier white people to neighborhoods. I think it’s about the message and who’s delivering that message. People need to be assured that no this is in fact to benefit you and the people who live here currently

[skyhigh07]

Retail Update: Looks like Tempur Pedic is going into the old Ann Taylor space. Not too exciting but their Manhattan store near Lexington Ave looks pretty nice and it shows that demand on Walnut is still doing well.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Retail Update: Looks like Temper Pedic is going into the old Ann Taylor space. Not too exciting but their Manhattan store near Lexington Ave looks pretty nice and it shows that demand on Walnut is still doing well.

Seems to me that bodes well for residential numbers. I can’t imagine tourists are buying beds on vacation.

[skyhigh07]

Was browsing Metro Commercial retail space map brochures and noticed 1625 Walnut says Louis Vuitton. That CAN’T be correct right? A proposed LV for Walnut would be a huge leap.

https://www.metrocommercial.com/wp-c...hestnut-St.pdf

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Was browsing Metro Commercial retail space map brochures and noticed 1625 Walnut says Louis Vuitton. That CAN’T be correct right? A proposed LV for Walnut would be a huge leap.

https://www.metrocommercial.com/wp-c...hestnut-St.pdf

Woah! I hope so. That would be amazing for the area. On a related note, have we heard anything about the Nike that was announced last year?

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Was browsing Metro Commercial retail space map brochures and noticed 1625 Walnut says Louis Vuitton. That CAN’T be correct right? A proposed LV for Walnut would be a huge leap.

https://www.metrocommercial.com/wp-c...hestnut-St.pdf

Seems like a random spot for a brand like LV, but wow if that is true...

[PHLtoNYC]

Interesting yet confusing... Thoughts, explanations, predictions?

Most large U.S. cities reversed or slowed pandemic population drops. But not Philly.
https://www.inquirer.com/news/philad...-20230519.html

Nineteen of the 20 most populous American cities reversed or slowed pandemic-era population declines — Philadelphia being the notable exception — data released by the U.S. Census Bureau Thursday shows.

Philadelphia lost 11,000 residents between July 2020 and July 2021, a 0.7% drop, according to census data. Another 12 of the 20 most populous cities saw declines.

In Philadelphia’s case, July 2022 bookended another year of declines with an additional loss of 22,000 residents, a drop of 1.4% that left the city’s population at 1.57 million.

Meanwhile, New York City, Los Angeles, and Chicago saw smaller population declines than the first pandemic year.

Ben Gruswitz, who uses these types of data for socioeconomic and land-use analytics at the Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission, added these population estimates are just that and subject to tweaks.

For example, the census initially estimated Philly lost close to 25,000 residents in the year ending July 2021. A year later, that number was adjusted to just over 11,000 residents. He wondered if the 2022 estimates could see a similar correction.

Already knocked to the sixth most populous city as Phoenix (boo, hiss!) enjoys our former perch as fifth, San Antonio is inching closer to bumping us in the rankings...

Atlanta is slowly catching up as well, likely to overtake the Philadelphia area as seventh-largest when the 2023 population figures are released next year...

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Interesting yet confusing... Thoughts, explanations, predictions?

Most large U.S. cities reversed or slowed pandemic population drops. But not Philly.
https://www.inquirer.com/news/philad...-20230519.html

Nineteen of the 20 most populous American cities reversed or slowed pandemic-era population declines — Philadelphia being the notable exception — data released by the U.S. Census Bureau Thursday shows.

Philadelphia lost 11,000 residents between July 2020 and July 2021, a 0.7% drop, according to census data. Another 12 of the 20 most populous cities saw declines.

In Philadelphia’s case, July 2022 bookended another year of declines with an additional loss of 22,000 residents, a drop of 1.4% that left the city’s population at 1.57 million.

Meanwhile, New York City, Los Angeles, and Chicago saw smaller population declines than the first pandemic year.

Ben Gruswitz, who uses these types of data for socioeconomic and land-use analytics at the Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission, added these population estimates are just that and subject to tweaks.

For example, the census initially estimated Philly lost close to 25,000 residents in the year ending July 2021. A year later, that number was adjusted to just over 11,000 residents. He wondered if the 2022 estimates could see a similar correction.

Already knocked to the sixth most populous city as Phoenix (boo, hiss!) enjoys our former perch as fifth, San Antonio is inching closer to bumping us in the rankings...

Atlanta is slowly catching up as well, likely to overtake the Philadelphia area as seventh-largest when the 2023 population figures are released next year...

If I remember correctly, center city, university city, and the adjacent neighborhoods are gaining population while the rest of the city is losing population. The gains just aren’t big enough to offset the losses. It makes some sense, people that have the means to leave seriously impoverished areas generally do. What that means long term, I’m not sure. I hope something changes and we don’t end up with a situation of continued decline leading to hyper vacancy like in St Louis. I went to law school there and north city is in many ways not savable. When 50% of the houses in a neighborhood are vacant, you can’t save it through reinvestment. The economics just don’t work. Those issues also bleed into the rest of the city. We’ll see what happens going forward.

[UrbanRevival]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Interesting yet confusing... Thoughts, explanations, predictions?

Yeah, it's really hard to glean any trends from the data, especially as the article notes that the 2021 estimated loss for Philadelphia was already downwardly revised by over 50%, from -25,000 to -11,000.

It's possible that Philly took on a disproportionate number of NYers who were trying to escape that COVID epicenter, who eventually began returning en masse in 2022.

It's also possible that affordable housing began to become a lot scarcer in Philly in 2022, forcing a disproportionate number of residents out.

There's so much to speculate about, and so many potential disruptions to the "norm" in 2022 still going on that, on top of data that's highly probable to be wrong to begin with, makes for an incredibly useless data point.

I think we need to wait at least 2 more years before giving the annual Census estimates any attention or serious weight.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

If I remember correctly, center city, university city, and the adjacent neighborhoods are gaining population while the rest of the city is losing population. The gains just aren’t big enough to offset the losses. It makes some sense, people that have the means to leave seriously impoverished areas generally do. What that means long term, I’m not sure. I hope something changes and we don’t end up with a situation of continued decline leading to hyper vacancy like in St Louis. I went to law school there and north city is in many ways not savable. When 50% of the houses in a neighborhood are vacant, you can’t save it through reinvestment. The economics just don’t work. Those issues also bleed into the rest of the city. We’ll see what happens going forward.

What Philly needs to focus on is simple Q-O-L issues and Public Safety. The sad part about a declining neighborhood is the people who leave are the people who have the means to actually leave. I knew some awesome guys from West and North Philadelphia at Temple. Smart as could be. First thing most of them wanted to do the moment they graduated was move from Philadelphia and never look back. Philly still has "middle neighborhoods" that need the city's focus to help stabilize before, like you said, it gets too late. Take care of the little things and the big things fall into place.