Parking Has Eaten American Cities

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by Crawford

NYC buses are not at all intimidating, in fact much less intimidating than trains. They skew very heavily elderly, and probably more white, as a lot of folks from a certain generation switched from trains to buses during the era of subway decline and higher crime. I've seen far more weird shit on trains.

And, while I haven't experienced it, I've heard stories of disorderly behavior on late night buses in the UK, and I've experienced it in Germany.

Excepting a few places like SF which may actually have a problem, I think most of the U.S. fear of buses is due to associations with blacks and the poor.

At least in SF, it's not "blacks and the poor". It's specifically passive-aggressive and aggressive-aggressive homeless (who can be filthy and who sprawl over multiple seats, daring anyone to sit next to them) and threatening/also aggressive black teens and other youth who play loud music, scream profanity and push/shove each other. In other words, it's not about anyone's identity. It's about their conduct.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Crawford

NYC buses are not at all intimidating, in fact much less intimidating than trains. They skew very heavily elderly, and probably more white, as a lot of folks from a certain generation switched from trains to buses during the era of subway decline and higher crime. I've seen far more weird shit on trains.

And, while I haven't experienced it, I've heard stories of disorderly behavior on late night buses in the UK, and I've experienced it in Germany.

Excepting a few places like SF which may actually have a problem, I think most of the U.S. fear of buses is due to associations with blacks and the poor.

If some of the crap that's been described on here happened regularly on buses in my city, my kids (and many other people) would stop taking transit pretty quickly.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

NYC buses are not at all intimidating, in fact much less intimidating than trains. They skew very heavily elderly, and probably more white, as a lot of folks from a certain generation switched from trains to buses during the era of subway decline and higher crime. I've seen far more weird shit on trains.

And, while I haven't experienced it, I've heard stories of disorderly behavior on late night buses in the UK, and I've experienced it in Germany.

Excepting a few places like SF which may actually have a problem, I think most of the U.S. fear of buses is due to associations with blacks and the poor.

Here in Houston where the train is a total freak show, buses are comparatively quiet and free of drama as well. Trains in New York maybe more intimidating than the bus but compared to cities where people tend to drive, I found the subway pretty benign.

RE: London. The Tube shuts down around 11 or 12 so all the amateur drunks take to the bus late at night. I've been on the bus there around 2AM and it's like a Guy Ritchie movie on wheels.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by JManc

Here in Houston where the train is a total freak show, buses are comparatively quiet and free of drama as well. Trains in New York maybe more intimidating than the bus but compared to cities where people tend to drive, I found the subway pretty benign.

RE: London. The Tube shuts down around 11 or 12 so all the amateur drunks take to the bus late at night. I've been on the bus there around 2AM and it's like a Guy Ritchie movie on wheels.

Me too. The worst offense in many subway rides I encountered was "manspreading". And generally the first thing I do on a trip to New York is buy an unlimited Metrocard.

I do agree that the few bus rides in Manhattan I have taken were totally benign. I suspect it may be because NY bus drivers respond to problems and summon the cops who are much more ubiquitous than in SF (compared to NYC, the SFPD seems undermanned and there are no transit cops except on BART which has its own force).

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

I do agree that the few bus rides in Manhattan I have taken were totally benign. I suspect it may be because NY bus drivers respond to problems and summon the cops who are much more ubiquitous than in SF (compared to NYC, the SFPD seems undermanned and there are no transit cops except on BART which has its own force).

It is rare to ride a bus in Manhattan for much more than a mile, since the subway moves much faster than the street level traffic. Thus, you won't find a lot of rowdy teenagers on buses in Manhattan because most of them will use the subway.

The areas of the city with larger gaps in subway coverage will have all the problems that any other bus system in the world would have.

[10023]

Originally Posted by JManc

RE: London. The Tube shuts down around 11 or 12 so all the amateur drunks take to the bus late at night. I've been on the bus there around 2AM and it's like a Guy Ritchie movie on wheels.

Oh yeah, don’t ride the night bus. Or the night tube. That’s what Uber is for (and yes, if you can afford to go out drinking until 2am in London, you can afford an Uber).

The night tube is a new thing (just certain lines on weekends) and this is probably pretty accurate:

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...-2014092491020

[dropdeaded209]

people seem awfully delicate, smug and concerned only for their wellbeing in the United States--nobody ever thinks, 'wow, these homeless people on public transportation sure look like they need some help, maybe there's something I could do?'

amused by homeless people? yikes...

one would think in a city a rich as New York or San Francisco, the better off would be outwardly committed to making sure everyone gets the help they need for the collective benefit of society... haha just kidding we know nobody cares!

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by dropdeaded209

people seem awfully delicate, smug and concerned only for their wellbeing in the United States--nobody ever thinks, 'wow, these homeless people on public transportation sure look like they need some help, maybe there's something I could do?'

amused by homeless people? yikes...

one would think in a city a rich as New York or San Francisco, the better off would be outwardly committed to making sure everyone gets the help they need for the collective benefit of society... haha just kidding we know nobody cares!

NYC and SF probably spend more per capita on the homeless than any other cities on the planet. NYC actually has a legal obligation to provide everyone a home, so anyone you see truly homeless has resisted countless attempts at intervention. They are actively resisting being housed. And I don't know the specifics in SF but they spend billions.

The issue, in short, has nothing to do with compassion or resources.

[10023]

Originally Posted by dropdeaded209

people seem awfully delicate, smug and concerned only for their wellbeing in the United States--nobody ever thinks, 'wow, these homeless people on public transportation sure look like they need some help, maybe there's something I could do?'

amused by homeless people? yikes...

one would think in a city a rich as New York or San Francisco, the better off would be outwardly committed to making sure everyone gets the help they need for the collective benefit of society... haha just kidding we know nobody cares!

They need to be sent to mental health facilities and kept under 24-hour care and observation, cleaned out, and possibly kept their indefinitely if they have an untreatable mental illness.

The whole problem is that in America we think they should be “free” and not kept in an institution against their will.

There’s very little that anyone here can do to help most of them.

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by 10023

They need to be sent to mental health facilities and kept under 24-hour care and observation, cleaned out, and possibly kept their indefinitely if they have an untreatable mental illness.

The whole problem is that in America we think they should be “free” and not kept in an institution against their will.

There’s very little that anyone here can do to help most of them.

The mental health issues is related to American Drug culture and the liberal acceptance of drug use that leads to even more drug use. An open southern border will allow readily available supply of illegal drugs available to recreational users ---> addicts that continue to trash their minds and then want to blame others for their self inflicted homeless/addiction issues.

Go ahead and shoot up on the sidewalk while we instruct the police to do nothing.
Go ahead and set up an encampment on a public right of way.
Go ahead and sleep on the sidewalk.
Go ahead and harass/scare people in public spaces.

It wasn't too long ago the the police would put a stop to this, not anymore.

Remember when normal people would end up in a drunk tank for being publicly intoxicated?

[lrt's friend]

Doesn't it cost money to ride public transit? If that is the case, why are the homeless using it? It seems to me that a good portion of the homeless have addictions problems and all their money is needed to fund those addictions.

The homeless problem mostly relate to mental health and/or addiction issues. The war on drugs has been a dismal failure. These are public health issues and should be treated as such. A problem is that health care is treated as a salable commodity in the USA. There is not a great deal of incentive to treat this problem seriously if money cannot be made from these people.

The southern border is an excuse. If there is a market for drugs, the drugs will arrive one way or another. Canada does not have a 'southern border' problem, but drugs are still easily available. When there is money to be made, ways will be found to meet the demand.

[lrt's friend]

Perhaps we moving more and more away from the topic of this thread. We should refocus our discussion. If we want to discuss these other matters, maybe a new thread is needed.

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Perhaps we moving more and more away from the topic of this thread. We should refocus our discussion. If we want to discuss these other matters, maybe a new thread is needed.

Yeah definitely. I think a thread exists already. I know we've discussed this endlessly before.

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by JManc

A 15 year-old takes Uber? Seriously? Am I that out of touch?

Sorry JManc, you're a little out of touch, hate to say it, because you're normally on point.

"Unaccompanied minors" fly on airplanes around the world. When I was 12 years old I would fly coast to coast on my own with my younger brother. Of course underage children are taking Uber. You download the app on you kid's smartphone, link your credit card to it. Uber doesn't care, because they're getting paid.

While this is against corporate policy, Uber is known for bending/ignoring laws/rules. There is no enforcement mechanism to verify who is actually doing what.

[mhays]

Bums get a free pass on transit in my city. They just say "can I ride for free?" and the driver waves them an.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by mhays

Bums get a free pass on transit in my city. They just say "can I ride for free?" and the driver waves them an.

That sounds like bad policy if it further stigmatizes public transit for the majority.

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by mhays

Bums get a free pass on transit in my city. They just say "can I ride for free?" and the driver waves them an.

I've noticed this is some cities, not all. In S.F. the bus operator just opens all the doors and people rush in. Don't worry about the fare. In L.A. again, just walk in the subway, why pay?

I noticed a lot of bums in Chicago ride the El to sleep and stay warm. I took the Blue Line back to the airport around 5am and the subway station was full of homeless people. The police armed with dogs are there to wake them up and remove them or push them onto a train.

Once we boarded the train to get to O'hare and it was full of intoxicated bums. Got to the end of the line at O'hare and they all jump up and transfer across the platform to the waiting inbound train, ride for an hour to the other end of the line, repeat.

The O'hare station had about 6 police officers that had to go in the train cars and push the homeless out and have them board the inbound train.

Imagine having that job, every single day.

[mhays]

That's our buses. On our trains, you get checked for a ticket maybe 1/4 of the time, and they routinely kick people off and ticket them.

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by mhays

That's our buses. On our trains, you get checked for a ticket maybe 1/4 of the time, and they routinely kick people off and ticket them.

And if you're homeless and get caught for riding the bus/train without a ticket, what happens? -- Nothing.

Where are they going to mail the ticket to? What happens when that bum doesn't pay the fine? -- Nothing.

So if you're homeless, why not ride the bus/train all day every single day?

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by dropdeaded209

people seem awfully delicate, smug and concerned only for their wellbeing in the United States--nobody ever thinks, 'wow, these homeless people on public transportation sure look like they need some help, maybe there's something I could do?'

amused by homeless people? yikes...

one would think in a city a rich as New York or San Francisco, the better off would be outwardly committed to making sure everyone gets the help they need for the collective benefit of society... haha just kidding we know nobody cares!

Every time this comes up, I suppose, it needs to be pointed out that San Francisco has spent, in recent years, in excess of $300 million annually on homelessness and prevention of homelessness (rent subsidies, eviction prevention, permanent supportive housing). However in the last election it passed a business tax that would double that amount (currently held up in the courts) and target the money toward shelters and other care for the already homeless. It has been estimated that the numbner of homeless in the city is around 8000 so that would be nearly $50,000 per homeless person (and more if you count the money spent on prevention). This supports an entire "homelessness" industry of non-profits focused on providing them services.

You would think (a) the average taxpaying citizen might have a right to think they are doing what can be done and should not be subject to stupid kibbitzers, domestic and foreign, and (b) in return for the largesse the homeless might be expected to behave in as considerate and civilized a manner as their circumstances permit (which includes taking up only one seat on transit, a seat to which they are probably not entitled since they probably haven't paid the fare).

The fact is we all know the long term homeless are mostly either mentally ill or substance dependent to the point of being too intoxicated most of the time to control themselves. So what really needs to happen is they need to be removed from transit altogether and institutionalized. Hopefully one day that will happen but it's less likely in ultra-permissive cities like the "rich" ones you mentioned.